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The Definitive Pace of Play Thread


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83 members have voted

  1. 1. How long does it typically take you to play 18 holes as a foursome?

    • Under 3:00
      0
    • 3:00 to 3:30
      20
    • 3:30 to 4:00
      73
    • 4:00 to 4:30
      72
    • 4:30 to 5:00
      11
    • Over 5:00
      4


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

3½ yes, because that is unrealistic for the general golfing public at this point in time.  But 4½ is too much the other way, doesn't create any incentive for players to do better, especially when there is so little enforcement of even that generous pace.  For most course 4 hours with strict enforcement would start to change the mindset in a positive direction.

I'm not advocating strict enforcement of the 3.5 hrs. I'm only recommending that become the expectation and allow people to shoot for the moon and if they miss, land among the stars. A lot of people fall back to the "hey, POP is 4.5 hrs and I'm on pace." This removes that excuse.

I tend to agree, but you can't shoot for the stars if you are starting mired in a swamp.  When you put unrealistic expectations on people, instead of inspiring them to succeed, it does the opposite.  If they can't see any way to achieve the goal, then they just figure "Why should I bother trying?"  Starting from the point where the speed of the game is right now you have to give them a goal that seems reachable, and keeping it to 4 hours doesn't seem like as big a jump as long as the expectation comes with education followed up by enforcement.

If you want change, you have to show that it's beneficial, that it's possible, and that it's required, not just a suggestion.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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I personally would prefer the pace of play faster than 4 hours, I also agree with @Fourputt . There are some people that have barriers to finishing in much less than 4 hours (I will avoid sterotypes so we don't get OT). If we can get nearly everyone to play at a reasonable pace of 4 hours or less, then maybe some day we can decrease the expected pace of play for early morning rounds. Michael Jordan is contemplating building his own golf course in Florida so he can set the pace like it should be (my guess is 3:30 - 4:00). He said he was tired of getting behind slugs that won't let faster players through on the course he is a member of.
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At the Old Course in St. Andrews, they have a very strict expectation that you'll get finished in 4 hours or less.  This is for 4 players, walking, taking photos, hitting out of impossible bunkers and putting on amazingly large greens.  Caddies are expected to enforce this time limit, and will get pretty insistent if you fall behind.  If you get away from the "tourist" courses, the expectation goes to 3-1/2 hours at many places.

I'd agree that posting a goal of 4 hours at most courses in the US would "raise the bar" encourage those who want to take their full allotted time to go a little faster, while still having the goal be attainable by almost everyone.

I'd also love to see courses be able to keep records of completion times for individual players.  This is done by a few private clubs, with good results.  Can you imagine signing in at a public course, and being told.."Mr. Jones, last time you were here your group took 5 hours to play, and finished 25 minutes behind the group in front of you.  You'll need to play a little faster today."  This isn't applying a judgement to Mr. Jones, its simply the facts.  I've used this approach with some of my interclub players, and not one player has complained about being unfairly labelled "slow" .

Dave

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I'd also love to see courses be able to keep records of completion times for individual players.  This is done by a few private clubs, with good results.  Can you imagine signing in at a public course, and being told.."Mr. Jones, last time you were here your group took 5 hours to play, and finished 25 minutes behind the group in front of you.  You'll need to play a little faster today."  This isn't applying a judgement to Mr. Jones, its simply the facts.  I've used this approach with some of my interclub players, and not one player has complained about being unfairly labelled "slow" .

I couldn't agree more - I've always thought that this would be a great idea.

There was a (public) course I used to play near Philadelphia that had an interesting approach.  Every cart had a small "whiteboard" on the front, and when you tee'd off on the first whole, the starter would actually write your start time on the cart itself.  It made it very easy for marshals to understand who was where, and it also served as a little reminder throughout the round.  When you finished, you would always know exactly how long the round took.

*edit: spelling correction

- John

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveP043

I'd also love to see courses be able to keep records of completion times for individual players.  This is done by a few private clubs, with good results.  Can you imagine signing in at a public course, and being told.."Mr. Jones, last time you were here your group took 5 hours to play, and finished 25 minutes behind the group in front of you.  You'll need to play a little faster today."  This isn't applying a judgement to Mr. Jones, its simply the facts.  I've used this approach with some of my interclub players, and not one player has complained about being unfairly labelled "slow" .

I couldn't agree more - I've always thought that this would be a great idea.

There was a (public) course I used to play near Philadelphia that had an interesting approach.  Every cart had a small "whiteboard" on the front, and when you tee'd off on the first whole, the starter would actually write your start time on the cart itself.  It made it very easy for marshals to understand who was where, and it also served as a little reminder throughout the round.  When you finished, you would always know exactly how long the round took.

*edit: spelling correction

My course used to put a card in the bracket on the front, but cost-cutting has eliminated that policy.  Now the starter records the cart number on his computer display and the ranger stops whenever he passes by and marks them down on his sheet, so he keeps track that way.  I don't need something written because I know what time I made the reservation for.  The courses I play where it matters mostly go by the tee sheet as if it's written in stone.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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My point isn't intended so much as a reminder on the day of play, although I endorse that as well, but for the longer term.  When a guy comes back  next week, and the staff has a record of his slow play from today, they can single him out with hard numbers, and ask him to play faster.  People get threatened or upset or argumentative if you tell them they're a "slow player".  In my experience, to tell someone that he played too slow on a specific occasion, and back it up with hard numbers, avoids judgement issues, but gets the message across just as well.  There's also the unspoken message, that is..."we're watching you, you really do need to play faster".  I know it would take at least a bit of resources to do this, and a willingness to actually raise the issue with customers, but it might also be good marketing.

Dave

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My course used to put a card in the bracket on the front, but cost-cutting has eliminated that policy.  Now the starter records the cart number on his computer display and the ranger stops whenever he passes by and marks them down on his sheet, so he keeps track that way.  I don't need something written because I know what time I made the reservation for.  The courses I play where it matters mostly go by the tee sheet as if it's written in stone.

That would work too, I suppose, but I always thought the "public shaming" aspect of it being displayed on the cart was potentially helpful.  Although I guess there aren't exactly people out on the course doing math...

I don't need something written because I know what time I made the reservation for.  The courses I play where it matters mostly go by the tee sheet as if it's written in stone.

Yeah, makes sense.  I play a lot as a single, so I'd just show up without a time and hang out at the first tee until a "short" group showed up.

- John

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This is just painful. I don't think I could play this game if I had to endure the horrors both sides of this discussion seem to have. Honestly, those of you who put up with this are real golfers.

I've gone to other courses at peak times, when multiples of foursomes are lined up and waiting to tee off so I know it's real. On these days, I know there will be people pissed due to either slow play or someone hitting into them. Lots of bad feelings. That's when the range seems like a good option.

I feel very fortunate to have only my game to ruin a perfectly good day on the course.

Saturday night, I will call my course to schedule a tee time for Sunday morning - probably around 8 am. I'll get there early and the very nice woman behind the front desk will tell me to head out whenever I'd like. I'll glance down at the schedule and might see that there won't be any else there until 9:30 or 10, which means I'll have the 9 hole course to walk by myself and then a second round with no one in front of me. This time of the year, I'll likely feel good enough to walk a third round of nine. 27 holes of golf and home in time to watch the Lions lose.

My local course is like this on a Saturday mid morning or afternoon.  I've literally rolled up to the starter a few minutes before my 10:30 tee time and seen 3 foursomes ahead of me waiting to tee off.  It's kind of dispiriting because you know it's going to be a long day of waiting around.

I couldn't agree more - I've always thought that this would be a great idea.

There was a (public) course I used to play near Philadelphia that had an interesting approach.  Every cart had a small "whiteboard" on the front, and when you tee'd off on the first whole, the starter would actually write your start time on the cart itself.  It made it very easy for marshals to understand who was where, and it also served as a little reminder throughout the round.  When you finished, you would always know exactly how long the round took.

*edit: spelling correction

Missed one. ;-):beer:

Christian

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My point isn't intended so much as a reminder on the day of play, although I endorse that as well, but for the longer term.  When a guy comes back  next week, and the staff has a record of his slow play from today, they can single him out with hard numbers, and ask him to play faster.  People get threatened or upset or argumentative if you tell them they're a "slow player".  In my experience, to tell someone that he played too slow on a specific occasion, and back it up with hard numbers, avoids judgement issues, but gets the message across just as well.  There's also the unspoken message, that is..."we're watching you, you really do need to play faster".  I know it would take at least a bit of resources to do this, and a willingness to actually raise the issue with customers, but it might also be good marketing.

Trouble with trying anything like that on a public course is you could only keep track of the regulars, and they aren't usually the problem.  It's the 50% or more of occasional or one time customers who don't play the course often who will defeat any attempt at such a policy.

It really takes a community effort at reeducation, and that would mean all of the courses in an area working toward the same goal together.  If the players didn't have a choice but to revise their thinking or give up the game, most would eventually take the change to heart.  And new players who took up the game to a better overall experience would quickly replace any disgruntled quitters.  Regulars and serious players would embrace such a change and have more faith in the dedication of the staff because they were actually living by their own policy.

Yeah, I know I sound like some dreamy eyed idealist, but hey, I can wish, can't I?

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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I think it was a couple of years ago that the GC did a "Pace of Play" month and Charlie Rymer was a part of a video series that were supposed to be comical.

This one seems appropriate:

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/pace-play-going-it-two/

Christian

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Yeah, I know I sound like some dreamy eyed idealist, but hey, I can wish, can't I?

I'm with you!  I try to pay attention to solutions that work at a few courses, and wonder if its possible to apply them at others.  I'm actually encouraged that we have an entire page in this thread without someone complaining about " those speed demons/tortoises" .  Do we have anyone actually involved in golf course management on here, either as a club pro or or similar.  It would be interesting to hear their side of the issue.  So often we look to them to help with the pace of play issues, I wonder if there's even any motivation for a course to care about it.

Dave

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These are all great ideas.  I see a couple of things the are a big factor in pace.  One is the foursome of beginners.  These are the younger guys just out maybe for their first time with no knowledge or care for pace of play. Second is that people either play the wrong tees, or the course has the tees set up too long.  Most average players should play at 6,000 yards or less.  Third is ready golf.  Too many times I see both carts waiting behind person who is hitting, then both carts move to the next person in line, and so on. And most times at least one in the group didn't get close to the green, so both carts are again waiting for the third shot instead of the other one proceeding to the green. Unless you're right in front of the guy hitting you should be at your ball or at least off to the side of your ball ready to hit.

It only takes one group, or one person in a group to get everything backed up.  I wish there was a solution.

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Today I played a round which refuted some of the arguments in this thread.  We played 18 in a foursome, virtually empty course.  Low score was me at 89, high score was 110 (As a second year player he usually plays the forward tees, but has been improving so he played the middle tees with the rest of us), the other 2 were in the mid 90's, so no low handicappers in the bunch.  We were in two carts, and all with wildly varying shot lengths and directions, in other words cart golf was not the order of the day.  We never rushed - had no reason to do so.  We played by the rules - everyone putted out.

We teed off at 10 AM.  We finished before 1:30, less than 3½ hours.  It was an easy, relaxed round, with plenty of socializing between shots, yet we finished in a time that some in this thread have said would require a lot of stress and hurrying to make.  Not even remotely so.  With four rather weak players we got around quite well, so it's not the impossibility that so many modern players seem to think it is.

No, it wasn't the most difficult course, but with small greens which are hard to hit, there is a lot of chipping and other greenside play that is usually thought to take more time.  The greens also have some wicked slopes - one hole you couldn't stop the ball within 6 feet of the hole unless you were putting straight uphill.  Still made less than 3½ hours.

It can be done, and with very little effort.  So pooh on all who say that it's an unrealistic goal.  That is only true when the group in front of you is holding up your game.

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Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Today I played a round which refuted some of the arguments in this thread.  We played 18 in a foursome, virtually empty course.  Low score was me at 89, high score was 110 (As a second year player he usually plays the forward tees, but has been improving so he played the middle tees with the rest of us), the other 2 were in the mid 90's, so no low handicappers in the bunch.  We were in two carts, and all with wildly varying shot lengths and directions, in other words cart golf was not the order of the day.  We never rushed - had no reason to do so.  We played by the rules - everyone putted out.   We teed off at 10 AM.  We finished before 1:30, less than 3½ hours.  It was an easy, relaxed round, with plenty of socializing between shots, yet we finished in a time that some in this thread have said would require a lot of stress and hurrying to make.  Not even remotely so.  With four rather weak players we got around quite well, so it's not the impossibility that so many modern players seem to think it is.   No, it wasn't the most difficult course, but with small greens which are hard to hit, there is a lot of chipping and other greenside play that is usually thought to take more time.  The greens also have some wicked slopes - one hole you couldn't stop the ball within 6 feet of the hole unless you were putting straight uphill.  Still made less than 3½ hours. It can be done, and with very little effort.  So pooh on all who say that it's an unrealistic goal.  That is only true when the group in front of you is holding up your game.

May we ask how long was the course from tees you played?

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Today I played a round which refuted some of the arguments in this thread.  We played 18 in a foursome, virtually empty course.  Low score was me at 89, high score was 110 (As a second year player he usually plays the forward tees, but has been improving so he played the middle tees with the rest of us), the other 2 were in the mid 90's, so no low handicappers in the bunch.  We were in two carts, and all with wildly varying shot lengths and directions, in other words cart golf was not the order of the day.  We never rushed - had no reason to do so.  We played by the rules - everyone putted out.   We teed off at 10 AM.  We finished before 1:30, less than 3½ hours.  It was an easy, relaxed round, with plenty of socializing between shots, yet we finished in a time that some in this thread have said would require a lot of stress and hurrying to make.  Not even remotely so.  With four rather weak players we got around quite well, so it's not the impossibility that so many modern players seem to think it is.   No, it wasn't the most difficult course, but with small greens which are hard to hit, there is a lot of chipping and other greenside play that is usually thought to take more time.  The greens also have some wicked slopes - one hole you couldn't stop the ball within 6 feet of the hole unless you were putting straight uphill.  Still made less than 3½ hours. It can be done, and with very little effort.  So pooh on all who say that it's an unrealistic goal.  That is only true when the group in front of you is holding up your game.

Good post

Colin P.

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Note: This thread is 2588 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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