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Water Hazard Penalty Question


MyrtleBeachGolf
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Let's assume there is a par 3 surrounded by water. You have to carry water to get to the green and the back of the green slopes off severely into water in the back as well. Doesn't really matter if it's an island green or not, but it could be. There is no drop zone. Also, if you hit over the back of the green, and it rolls down the slope into the water hazard, there is no way to drop within 2 club lengths and not be nearer the hole. So, if you hit in the water over the back of the green, your only course of action is to re-hit from the tee under S&D.; I know a provisional ball is not allowed for a ball in a hazard, only for OB or lost ball on the course. But what if you hit your tee shot long here, and because of the way the back slopes down to the hazard, you can't see if your ball is held up on the back or has rolled off into the hazard. Is your only course of action to walk all the way up to the green (200 yards away), look to see if your ball is on the back slope or in the water, then walk all the way back to the tee to re-hit if it's in the water? Is there no way to speed up this process?
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There is no where to drop that isn't closer to the hole. Your only correct action is to re-hit from tee. My question is pertaining to speeding up the process when you don't know if it's in the hazard or if it held up on the slope.
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Have a look at Appendix 1 Part A 2b and the specimen local rule in Part B 1.  It sounds as if the course could introduce this local rule that permits a provisional ball to be played where

it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play, and
if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the
water hazard ,

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You have a 200 yd forced carry? Yikes. Why don't they use a spot near the Ladies Tees for the drop zone? I will guess it's only about an 80 yd forced carry there.

Unless you're in a real serious round, I'd just place the ball on the playing surface just before it went into the water.

If you're not sure your ball is in the water, and this is not a real serious round, sure, hit a "provisional" to speed up play. You can't do that in a tournament, but in a non-tournament round for the sake of practicality and not to make a bunch of people angry.

Julia

:callaway:  :cobra:    :seemore:  :bushnell:  :clicgear:  :adidas:  :footjoy:

Spoiler

Driver: Callaway Big Bertha w/ Fubuki Z50 R 44.5"
FW: Cobra BiO CELL 14.5 degree; 
Hybrids: Cobra BiO CELL 22.5 degree Project X R-flex
Irons: Cobra BiO CELL 5 - GW Project X R-Flex
Wedges: Cobra BiO CELL SW, Fly-Z LW, 64* Callaway PM Grind.
Putter: 48" Odyssey Dart

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Have a look at Appendix 1 Part A 2b and the specimen local rule in Part B 1.  It sounds as if the course could introduce this local rule that permits a provisional ball to be played where [COLOR=474B55]

[COLOR=0000CD]it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the [/COLOR] [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Hazards][COLOR=0000CD]hazard[/COLOR][/URL][/COLOR] [COLOR=0000CD] or to do so would unduly delay play, and if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the [/COLOR] [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Water-Hazard][COLOR=0000CD]water hazard[/COLOR][/URL][/COLOR] [COLOR=0000CD],[/COLOR]

[/COLOR]

One of the least used, but most helpful LR's that I know. We have 2 holes that we play locally where we implement it within our group.

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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First of all the course designer is an ass for making a 200 yard hole surrounded by water...second of all, there has to be a spot on the other side that is not closer to the hole doesn't there?  I mean it can be 1" further from the hole and its a good drop, only thing I can think of where you wouldn't find a spot to drop would be a perfectly round green...There is also the rule that you can drop the ball on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole...you have the 3 choices when dealing with water hazards.

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First of all the course designer is an ass for making a 200 yard hole surrounded by water...second of all, there has to be a spot on the other side that is not closer to the hole doesn't there?  I mean it can be 1" further from the hole and its a good drop, only thing I can think of where you wouldn't find a spot to drop would be a perfectly round green...There is also the rule that you can drop the ball on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole...you have the 3 choices when dealing with water hazards.

Sorry for the confusion. This is a hypothetical hole for basis of the question. Doesn't matter if it's 200 yards or 145 yards. Point is, the back of the green is round and slopes away. If you fly it over the flag and off the back into the water, there is not a spot within 2 clubs lengths from where it crossed the hazards that's not nearer the hole. For the sake of argument, the only correct action is to re-tee if you hit in water over the back. I was curious as to if a provisional is possible here. And Colin provided the info I was looking for.

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Glad he answered your provisional question, but re-teeing your ball isn't the only option and you are doing yourself a disservice by not knowing the correct ruling or options you have.
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Unless you have a perfect circle island green with the pin exactly in the middle of the circle and you go in the hazard exactly on the line directly from where you teed up through the flag and to the back of the island, it is not possible that there is no spot to drop not closer to the hole.  So if you clear the green you don't need to hit a provisional because you will always be able to find a spot to drop, or drop twice then place if the slope is severe enough.

Matt

Mid-Weight Heavy Putter
Cleveland Tour Action 60˚
Cleveland CG15 54˚
Nike Vapor Pro Combo, 4i-GW
Titleist 585h 19˚
Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
Taylormade R7 Quad 9.5˚

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Unless you have a perfect circle island green with the pin exactly in the middle of the circle and you go in the hazard exactly on the line directly from where you teed up through the flag and to the back of the island, it is not possible that there is no spot to drop not closer to the hole.  So if you clear the green you don't need to hit a provisional because you will always be able to find a spot to drop, or drop twice then place if the slope is severe enough.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here....you're not saying that he could somehow drop on or around the green, having hit into the water hazard, are you?

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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Glad he answered your provisional question, but re-teeing your ball isn't the only option and you are doing yourself a disservice by not knowing the correct ruling or options you have.

I'm fully aware of all my options when hitting into a hazard. This question was a hypothetical about a provisional speeding up play. I already explained the hypothetical situation where there are no other options. Aside from taking a drop at the front of the tee box, 2 yards in front of where you just hit, the only option is to re-hit from the tee. There is no drop zone. And no area in the back that is not closer to the hole. I'd draw a picture of the hole to help explain my point, but I'm on my mobile device.

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I already explained the hypothetical situation where there are no other options. Aside from taking a drop at the front of the tee box, 2 yards in front of where you just hit, the only option is to re-hit from the tee. There is no drop zone. And no area in the back that is not closer to the hole.

But what we are trying to tell you is that there is really never a time when this will happen unless it is a perfectly round green...there will always be a spot to drop that is no closer to the hole...that's why lateral hazards don't allow provisionals is becaus there is always a place to drop, and it would be stupid to re-tee becaus you are losing the distance...

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But what we are trying to tell you is that there is really never a time when this will happen unless it is a perfectly round green...there will always be a spot to drop that is no closer to the hole...that's why lateral hazards don't allow provisionals is becaus there is always a place to drop, and it would be stupid to re-tee becaus you are losing the distance...

Obviously if there was a place to drop behind the green that was within 2 club lengths from where my ball entered the hazard and was not closer to the hole, I would always drop there. But if you read my initial question, that area does not exist. I made that point in the very beginning.

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Just for clarification, this thread was not intended to be a discussion about what your options are when hitting into a hazard. This discussion was about how to proceed when your ONLY option is to re-hit from tee, but you aren't positive as to whether your ball is in play or in the hazard. Also, neither the green nor the hazard line "need to be perfectly round". All that needs to occur is that there is an 8' curve of the hazard marking on either side of where your ball crossed the hazard that is equidistant from the hole.
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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here....you're not saying that he could somehow drop on or around the green, having hit into the water hazard, are you?

If flies over the green, then the last point his ball crossed from in play into the hazard is on the back side of the green.  My understanding of the hazard drop rule was always that you extend the hazard line vertically into the air to make a sort of hazard boundary plane.  Then you drop from the point on the ground directly under the last point on that plane at which the ball crosses this plane going from not in the hazard into the hazard.

For example, if a lake runs down the left side of a fairway and also curves in and partially borders the front/short side of the fairway and you hit a draw that crosses the finger, then flies over the fairway and rough for a while and then draws into the lake well down the fairway, you drop from the point your ball crossed into the hazard down the fairway, not in front of the short finger your ball also crossed.

So in this case, you flew the forced carry, then flew over the green, then airmailed the island and landed in the water past the green.  So you last entered the hazard on the back side of the green and can drop from there.  And barring the perfect circle island with the pin directly in the center of the green and your ball passing over the back of the green exactly on the line from your tee through the flag situation I described above, you will always be able to find a spot close to where your ball crossed but no closer to the pin from which to drop.  It may be a close affair with some tricky dropping twice with your foot at the edge of the water to catch the ball from rolling into the hazard and then placing.  But it'll be doable.

Am I wrong about the spot to drop when you lose your ball in a hazard?  Or was I just unclear above?

Matt

Mid-Weight Heavy Putter
Cleveland Tour Action 60˚
Cleveland CG15 54˚
Nike Vapor Pro Combo, 4i-GW
Titleist 585h 19˚
Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
Taylormade R7 Quad 9.5˚

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You could hit from where the ball first crossed the hazard and hit over the hazard thus probably having a much shorter distance to cover, unless it's like bramble there in which case hit behind the bramble, unless that's on a steep downward slope or in rough up to your knees.

There really should be no need to take a stroke and distance penalty on this hole or have to rehit from 200 yds.

The other choice is to get enough people who play the course to sign a petition to the course committee to put in a drop zone.

There is also the mark X6 on the card and move on.

Julia

:callaway:  :cobra:    :seemore:  :bushnell:  :clicgear:  :adidas:  :footjoy:

Spoiler

Driver: Callaway Big Bertha w/ Fubuki Z50 R 44.5"
FW: Cobra BiO CELL 14.5 degree; 
Hybrids: Cobra BiO CELL 22.5 degree Project X R-flex
Irons: Cobra BiO CELL 5 - GW Project X R-Flex
Wedges: Cobra BiO CELL SW, Fly-Z LW, 64* Callaway PM Grind.
Putter: 48" Odyssey Dart

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If flies over the green, then the last point his ball crossed from in play into the hazard is on the back side of the green.  My understanding of the hazard drop rule was always that you extend the hazard line vertically into the air to make a sort of hazard boundary plane.  Then you drop from the point on the ground directly under the last point on that plane at which the ball crosses this plane going from not in the hazard into the hazard. So in this case, you flew the forced carry, then flew over the green, then airmailed the island and landed in the water past the green.  So you last entered the hazard on the back side of the green and can drop from there.  And barring the perfect circle island with the pin directly in the center of the green and your ball passing over the back of the green exactly on the line from your tee through the flag situation I described above, you will always be able to find a spot close to where your ball crossed but no closer to the pin from which to drop.  It may be a close affair with some tricky dropping twice with your foot at the edge of the water to catch the ball from rolling into the hazard and then placing.  But it'll be doable. Am I wrong about the spot to drop when you lose your ball in a hazard?

That's what I suspected you meant. Yep, you're wrong. But it's a common mistake. Assuming the water hazard in the OP is not marked (incorrectly) as a lateral hazard, then the ball must be dropped behind the hazard. You may not drop it on the side nearest the green. 26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. If a ball is found in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke: a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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Also, neither the green nor the hazard line "need to be perfectly round". All that needs to occur is that there is an 8' curve of the hazard marking on either side of where your ball crossed the hazard that is equidistant from the hole.

Okay, fair enough.  The whole island doesn't need to be a perfect circle.  But there would need to be a section of the hazard that stretches two club lengths on either side of where you entered that makes a perfect circular arc centered at the flag.  This seems unlikely to exist to me.  Even with some perfectly circular arced sections of the edge of the hazard, there also needs to be a pin placement exactly in the center of the circle from which that arc is taken.

Matt

Mid-Weight Heavy Putter
Cleveland Tour Action 60˚
Cleveland CG15 54˚
Nike Vapor Pro Combo, 4i-GW
Titleist 585h 19˚
Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
Taylormade R7 Quad 9.5˚

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Note: This thread is 3144 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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