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Water Hazard Bordered by an unfenced backyard


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I come back (again) to the definition of the course: The "course" is the whole area within any boundaries established by the Committee (see Rule 33-2). If no boundary has been established then ipso facto, there is none. .

Seriously @Martyn W , if you hit a ball into the front yard of someone who lives next to a golf course and there wasn't a fence, white stakes or white line, you don't think that's out of bounds?

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@Martyn W

Check out the definition of "out of bounds"

"Out of bounds" is beyond the boundaries of the course or any part of the course so marked by theCommittee.

The word, "or" is important because it makes a clear distinction that Out of Bounds can be two things. The Boundaries of the course, and what the Committee markes.

The Committee does not have to mark out of bounds. Also the Committee can not deem property off the course as on the course because they do not own the land. As such, any property bordering the course is out of bounds. If the Committee does not mark out of bounds then the property limits of the golf course is the boundary. If the Committee wishes to change the maximum boundaries (the actual property limits the course owns), then they must mark what is Out of Bounds.

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And I'll again come back to the definition of "out of bounds."

You seem to believe that the "boundary" must be "established" only via white stakes or a line of paint. There are plenty of other ways to denote the boundary. Plenty of very obvious ways where even a six-year-old child would be able to say where the boundary is.

"There is no boundary." Ha ha ha. Okay. C'mon, @Martyn W, surely you don't believe that the boundary of the course extends across the street, through the neighbor's yard, into their backyard neighbor's yard, etc.


There are only two ways in which the boundary  or part of the boundary of a course can be established  in terms of the Rules - by its being marked with white lines/stakes or by the Committee's definition of that boundary in the local rules.   In the absence of both of these, then,  in terms of the Rules, there is no limit to the golf course whether across a street, into a backyard or across the Atlantic/Pacific ocean. There seems to me a lot of confusion in this thread between the situation according to the Rules and the pragmatic resolution of a problem  on the ground where a Committee has failed in its duty to define the boundaries of the course.   In the event of such a failure, then all manner of absurdities could arise by way of places we might theoretically play from and obviously players will seek a sensible solution in the middle of a game.

To put it another way, just because in the area described by the OP there will  be a line on a cadastral map which shows where the land owned by the course meets the land owned by the householders, in the absence of any markings by the Committee or of a definition of the course boundary, a player could, in terms of the Rules,  play from  anywhere - a backyard, the street beyond,  through the open window of someone's living room.

I've emphasised "in terms of the Rules", fully appreciating the absurd and impracticable situations  that a Committee's failure to define the boundary can create.  The only way in which the problem the OP raised can be resolved in terms of the Rule is for the Committee to  mark or define the boundary.  All else that has been mentioned, as I see it, comprises a variety of practical solutions to encountering a problem during a game.  It is  fair enough for players to come up with such solutions in order to get on with it,  but not one of them is valid rules-wise. The only legimate action if your balls lies in what seems obviously someone's garden in the OP's description,  is to play the ball as it lies or deem it unplayable Legitimate is not necessarily the same thing as practicable or sensible or even safe! Which is why when a tournament is to be held on a course, the TD will ensure that all markings and definitions are in place, adding to or changing what is already there as necessary.

It's not uncommon, however, to have courses which do not have boundaries in part or in whole - deliberately not by Committee neglect.  The Old Course at St Andrews has a mixture of no defined boundary and marked boundary.  The Irish amateur who achieved the distinction of leading the way in to the 4th round, put a tee shot so far to the right on one hole he was on the putting green of  a different course, but in bounds.  Phil Mickelson, on the other hand, chose where he played a loose tee shot less wisely, ending up on a balcony of the Old Course Hotel which was very clearly out of bounds.  I have refereed on another Scottish course where on one side it borders on another course.  There is intentionally no marked or defined boundary between them  and it is thus legitimate to play from one course back to the other.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac62

Makes sense to me too.  I don't care what the Rules say or don't say - if it even looks like my ball is on private property, whether it's marked or not, if there's any doubt I'm not playing it.  Rules or no rules, common sense tells me that I don't play a stroke from somebody's back yard.

Mac, with all due respect this forum is about Rules of Golf. Saying that " I don't care what the Rules say " hardly adds to the discussion. No one said that the RoG are 'sensible', they are what they are.


Twisting my words and taking them out of context doesn't add to the discussion either.  I stand by what I said, in the context of the rest of my quote .

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@Martyn W, Is it your contention, then, that the course extends indefinitely to include the entire world if it is not clearly marked by a boundary? That's what I'm gathering from your interpretation.

Yes.

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Seriously @Martyn W, if you hit a ball into the front yard of someone who lives next to a golf course and there wasn't a fence, white stakes or white line, you don't think that's out of bounds?

Yes.

As you see from my post above, I would, with the addition of "or defined in the local rules as being out of bounds", also be saying yes.

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@Martyn W

Check out the definition of "out of bounds"

The word, "or" is important because it makes a clear distinction that Out of Bounds can be two things. The Boundaries of the course, and what the Committee markes.

The Committee does not have to mark out of bounds. Also the Committee can not deem property off the course as on the course because they do not own the land. As such, any property bordering the course is out of bounds. If the Committee does not mark out of bounds then the property limits of the golf course is the boundary. If the Committee wishes to change the maximum boundaries (the actual property limits the course owns), then they must mark what is Out of Bounds.

So from a practical point of view, when players have a dispute as to where the property line is, we should call out the county surveyor to determine the line? To those of you arguing that the boundary is 'obvious', I would simply say 'no, it isn't!'

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Twisting my words and taking them out of context doesn't add to the discussion either.  I stand by what I said, in the context of the rest of my quote.

Mac, please take a moment to read Colin's post #57. He eloquently explains the situation through the eyes of a Rules official. I agree 100% with him.

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So from a practical point of view, when players have a dispute as to where the property line is, we should call out the county surveyor to determine the line? To those of you arguing that the boundary is 'obvious', I would simply say 'no, it isn't!'


Many times, the boundary is obvious, and I disagree with both you and @ColinL that the golf course extends indefinitely.

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So from a practical point of view, when players have a dispute as to where the property line is, we should call out the county surveyor to determine the line? To those of you arguing that the boundary is 'obvious', I would simply say 'no, it isn't!'

It is very rare you find a course where it is hard to tell where the property line is. I've played many golf courses before and not once have I ever been confused as to what was on the golf course and what wasn't.

I am not rude enough to go into someone's property to hit a golf ball.

To me it's about using common sense.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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Yes.

As you see from my post above, I would, with the addition of "or defined in the local rules as being out of bounds", also be saying yes.

Many times, the boundary is obvious, and I disagree with both you and @ColinL that the golf course extends indefinitely.

I've been kicking around the ramifications of the notion of an infinite course around in my head since it came up last night, and one of the places that particularly jumps out at me is the section on practice on the course for tournament competitors. Specifically:

7-1. Before Or Between Rounds

a. Match Play

On any day of a match-play competition, a player may practice on the competition course before a round.

b. Stroke Play

Before a round or play-off on any day of a stroke-play competition, acompetitor must not practice on the competition course or test the surface of any putting green on the course by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.

When two or more rounds of a stroke-play competition are to be played over consecutive days, a competitor must not practice between those rounds on any competition course remaining to be played, or test the surface of anyputting green on such course by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.

Exception: Practice putting or chipping on or near the first teeing ground or any practice area before starting a round or play-off is permitted.

It seems to me that the idea of an infinite course would lead to some absurd results like competitors practicing miles away breaking the rules because they're technically "on the course". The part of this analysis that I'm not sure about is that this rule occasionally qualifies "course" with "competition course," which I don't see defined anywhere specifically. I also don't know that it would make any difference, since I read the term to just mean "the course where the competition is being played" but with an infinite course, I don't know that that has much of a narrowing effect. I'm curious to see what people think.

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Originally Posted by dkolo

It seems to me that the idea of an infinite course would lead to some absurd results like competitors practicing miles away breaking the rules because they're technically "on the course". The part of this analysis that I'm not sure about is that this rule occasionally qualifies "course" with "competition course," which I don't see defined anywhere specifically. I also don't know that it would make any difference, since I read the term to just mean "the course where the competition is being played" but with an infinite course, I don't know that that has much of a narrowing effect. I'm curious to see what people think.

This is an interesting take on the issue.  Somehow there needs to be an end to the course.  Is that considered to be at the absolute farthest that a ball could possibly be hit from the "natural" limits of the course?  Why would that be any more appropriate than what seem to be the natural or intended limits of the course?

In most cases that I've experienced where this comes into play, there are no homes or yards involved, just undeveloped land where the ball is playable if found.  Any course I've played where homes are in the picture, the boundary is clearly marked with stakes.  Maybe I've just been fortunate to play where the course management respected the rights of the homeowners.

Rick

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Many times, the boundary is obvious, and I disagree with both you and @ColinL that the golf course extends indefinitely.

Isn't it Pebble Beach where the lateral water hazard extends to infinity (or at least round the world)?

The lateral water hazards along the ocean at Pebble Beach are marked on only one side, which makes the Pacific Ocean the largest lateral water hazard in the world.

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Isn't it Pebble Beach where the lateral water hazard extends to infinity (or at least round the world)? The lateral water hazards along the ocean at Pebble Beach are marked on only one side, which makes the Pacific Ocean the largest lateral water hazard in the world.

But that's totally in keeping with a non-infinite course though, I think. You could easily have a river as a lateral with the boundary being the other side. The only consequence I see is you don't have the option of dropping on the other side of the hazard (the Pacific) but that's because you couldn't get an equidistant distance as much as it is because it's out of bounds.

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It is very rare you find a course where it is hard to tell where the property line is. I've played many golf courses before and not once have I ever been confused as to what was on the golf course and what wasn't.

I am not rude enough to go into someone's property to hit a golf ball.

To me it's about using common sense.

True, but this very issue was what prompted my original inquiry in the first place - namely, no boundary marker, nor any "common sense" delineation whatsoever. My takeaway from this thread is that

1. The course did a poor job of marking their boundaries and

2. A committee would have a difficult time penalizing my opponent for playing where he did in the absence of said markings.

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So from a practical point of view, when players have a dispute as to where the property line is, we should call out the county surveyor to determine the line? To those of you arguing that the boundary is 'obvious', I would simply say 'no, it isn't!'

No, you just use common sense ;-)

I can tell the difference between a golf course and someone's backyard or a neighboring park.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

It is very rare you find a course where it is hard to tell where the property line is. I've played many golf courses before and not once have I ever been confused as to what was on the golf course and what wasn't.

I am not rude enough to go into someone's property to hit a golf ball.

To me it's about using common sense.

True, but this very issue was what prompted my original inquiry in the first place - namely, no boundary marker, nor any "common sense" delineation whatsoever. My takeaway from this thread is that

1. The course did a poor job of marking their boundaries and

2. A committee would have a difficult time penalizing my opponent for playing where he did in the absence of said markings.

Common sense as a method of problem solving only produces optimal results by accident. Why not follow the Rules?

You use the words "match" and "opponent" which indicate the form of play is match play. Rule 2-5, Doubt as to Procedure, is your guide. If the two of you disagree, the player can do what he thinks is correct and you must make a claim in a timely manner. The Committee adjudicates your claim.

If you are really talking about stroke play, then Rule 3-3, Doubt as to Procedure, is the way for your fellow-competitor to proceed.

There are four "musts" in 3-3:

1) must announce the intent to avail oneself of 3-3,

2) must declare which ball you wish to score with,

3) must hole out both balls,

4) must inform the Committee that 3-3 was used.

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No, you just use common sense

I can tell the difference between a golf course and someone's backyard or a neighboring park.

How can you possibly determine the precise location of a property line? The guy in the group ahead of you may have used his common sense to determine that his ball is in bounds and when your ball is in the same position, your common sense tells you it is OOB. How is that equitable?

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