NHL 2015-16 Season

[iacas]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Chris Pronger is now in the NHL HoF, as well as employed by the NHL, and his contract is still valid and came off Philly's books via trade this past offseason. What happened to the spirit of the CBA that the NHL was so concerned about with the Kovalchuk contract?

The Pronger thing is a joke. It's ridiculous.

It's also not just against the spirit. It's against the letter of the law.

[Natural Patrick]

I'm still basking in the glow of last Wed night's rivalry game. The Hawks scored 5 times is the 1st period. Yet the Blue's mount an Epic comeback and when the game. Even more impressive for the Blues was that they were without 3 of their top 5 players. First time in Hawks franchise History, that they have lost after scoring 5 goals in the first period. Let's Go Blues!!

[iacas]

@pumaAttack, ready to eat some crow yet?

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/25357275/-on-3-overtime-is-doing-exactly-what-the-nhl-hoped-it-would-do

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/11/9/9696264/nhl-3-on-3-overtime-rules-shootouts

[mcanadiens]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

@pumaAttack, ready to eat some crow yet?

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/25357275/-on-3-overtime-is-doing-exactly-what-the-nhl-hoped-it-would-do

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/11/9/9696264/nhl-3-on-3-overtime-rules-shootouts

Too bad that it didn't work out that way last night. Good for your Pens anyway. 

[iacas]

I'm getting awfully tired of the NHL.

While the NFL has taken steps (some would say too many) to protect the offensive stars of their sport, the NHL has gone the other way:

• Clutching, grabbing, obstruction, interference, cross-checking, etc. running rampant.
• Officials that change what they call based on the score, the period, the time of year, the penalty count for each team… etc.
• A "Division of Player Safety" that doesn't actually seem to give a rat's ass about player safety.
  • Sid last night (Brandon Dubinsky)
  • Stepan just recently.
  • Olli Maatta recently as well.

I'm getting tired of it. Scoring is down because fringe NHL players can just grab anyone they want. Stars and skill cannot separate themselves because they're almost literally dragging two bodies to the net every time they try to score.

This is the same league that allowed Marc Staal's play on Crosby in the playoffs (no penalty, nothing), Ovechkin taking out knees and whacking Letting's ankle and taking flying leaps into people. It's the same league that allowed Chara to ride and shove Pacioretty's face into a wall, breaking his neck.

Lemieux called it a "garage league" and it has turned once again into just that.

Sidney Crosby must really love hockey, because if I were him I'd be awfully tempted to just retire at this point. He - and countless other stars - are literally risking their long-term health at this point.

The NHL has become unwatchable.

[Natural Patrick]

Put your big boy pants on like you dad would have done. If the Pens even had a half ass decent record this year. You would have never posted this and you know it. It's the same for every team so quit playing the victim.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Natural Patrick said:

Put your big boy pants on like you dad would have done. If the Pens even had a half ass decent record this year. You would have never posted this and you know it. It's the same for every team so quit playing the victim.

Uhhhh, they're third in the Metro. And my dad didn't give a crap about hockey.

Scoring continues to drop.

You're wrong about what I would and wouldn't think or say.

And who cares if it's the same for every team. "It" sucks.

[Natural Patrick]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

Uhhhh, they're third in the Metro. And my dad didn't give a crap about hockey.

Scoring continues to drop.

You're wrong about what I would and wouldn't think or say.

And who cares if it's the same for every team. "It" sucks.

Scoring is down because the goaltending gets better every year, look it up. "If you don't like it, then don't watch it"

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Natural Patrick said:

Scoring is down because the goaltending gets better every year, look it up. "If you don't like it, then don't watch it"  

Goaltending skill has not increased at the same rate as goal-scoring has dropped. "Look it up." The number of power plays per game continues to drop. The number of goals per game continues to drop.

The league has reverted to a clutch-and-grab fest where cross-checks and dangerous play is not even penalized (or one-game suspensions are handed out, slaps on the wrist if that). The changes they made after 2004-05 have faded away. You can now obstruct, interfere, clutch, grab, and flat out commit assault well away from the play without much fear of penalty let alone further disciplinary action.

If you're a fan of the style of hockey that's becoming more and more prevalent, I feel sorry for you. It's a boring, slow-moving, skill-sucking game.

I will stop watching if it continues. It's ridiculous. It's not hockey the way hockey is meant to be played. Hockey, played and called properly, is a beautiful, fast-paced thing to watch. This ain't that.

Best sport. Worst league.

[billchao]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm getting awfully tired of the NHL.

While the NFL has taken steps (some would say too many) to protect the offensive stars of their sport, the NHL has gone the other way:

I don't agree. I think the NHL is as good as it's ever been, if not better than it's ever been, in all the years I've been watching hockey. They've made a lot of changes to the game to increase offensive opportunities, too much in some aspects, IMO, that have made the game faster and more exciting. You can't just make the rules completely in favor of the offensive team and hinder the defensive side of play.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

Clutching, grabbing, obstruction, interference, cross-checking, etc. running rampant.

I watch a lot of games and I'm finding the opposite to be true. It's not as prominent as it's been in years past, and it's gotten to the point where I feel too many "iffy" obstructions are called. Diving and embellishment are also becoming a problem. I hate it when I watch players straight up grab and hold a defender's stick to make it look like they're being hooked. It's absurd, but that's where it's been headed for a while now.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

Officials that change what they call based on the score, the period, the time of year, the penalty count for each team… etc.

This is stupid, but I see more of officiating teams being inconsistent from one game to another rather than from one half of a period to another, per se. Watching a game where the refs call every borderline call one day and the next where another group lets almost everything go is dumb. Unfortunately that's the problem with using people as officials; they all interpret the rules slightly different. It's similar to the problem with umpires in baseball and the strike zone.

Now, when the playoffs come around and they start letting stuff go that are clearly penalties, that's stupid. So are "makeup" calls. You can't make up a missed call with a bad call; two wrongs don't make a right.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

A "Division of Player Safety" that doesn't actually seem to give a rat's ass about player safety.

They're doing a decent job IMO. Their rulings are pretty good for the most part, but their fines and suspensions are weak. That's not their fault AFAIK, that's a CBA issue.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

Sid last night (Brandon Dubinsky)

Dubinsky was both penalized during the game and suspended afterwards in a hearing. The NHL did their job right here.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

Stepan just recently.

Looked like a clean hit, abeit a bit late. It's unfortunate that Stepan got hurt, but this hit would have warranted an interference penalty at best. Stepan didn't do his part to defend himself properly; he had time and saw the hit coming.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

Olli Maatta recently as well.

A crosscheck or a boarding call could have been made, but the injury had more to do with the door opening than anything else. If that happened when the boards were solid, he likely would have slid down along the boards instead of stopping in mid-air and all the energy of the collision transferring into his body.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm getting tired of it. Scoring is down because fringe NHL players can just grab anyone they want. Stars and skill cannot separate themselves because they're almost literally dragging two bodies to the net every time they try to score.

Scoring is also down because goalie pads are too large, defensive schemes have changed towards shot prevention, etc. Stars can and have plenty of opportunities to separate themselves. I know you're exaggerating, but I don't see it. There are a lot more instances where a player will get through and draw a weak call because a defender happened to slap their stick or something. The second a defender even touches someone with a free hand, a penalty is called.

Unless you're talking about somebody not being able to weave their way through defensemen to get to open space, but the defense player is entitled to the space they occupy.

21 hours ago, iacas said:

This is the same league that allowed Marc Staal's play on Crosby in the playoffs (no penalty, nothing), Ovechkin taking out knees and whacking Letting's ankle and taking flying leaps into people. It's the same league that allowed Chara to ride and shove Pacioretty's face into a wall, breaking his neck.

I can't say I've seen the Staal play, but Ovechkin does seem to get a pass on some of his hits, though I'm pretty sure it's because of his star status. Ironic, isn't it?

The Chara incident was unfortunate, but still a clean rub out, it just happened to find a flawed design in the boards (which they've subsequently changed). If it happened on the other side of the ice, nobody would have thought anything of it.

17 hours ago, iacas said:

The number of power plays per game continues to drop. The number of goals per game continues to drop.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

Yes, power play opportunites have dropped since the 2004-05 lockout, but the number has significantly dropped since before the lockout. In the 10 years since that lockout, there have been fewer power play opportunities (minus the very first season after the lockout) than in the 10 years before it. Plus, conversion % has actually gone up, so the result is about the same (slightly fewer power play goals now than before the lockout).

I think a large part of power play opportunities being so much higher in the few years after the lockout than now is more due to the fact that player's had to relearn how to play the game because things they were used to doing were suddenly penalties. Now that everyone has adjusted, everything kind of tapered off.

Goals per game has also held steady for the last five years, not dropped, but the biggest culprit in my opinion is SV% going up every year. There are more shots per game now than there were before the lockout, yet fewer goals are going in. This is due to better defensive schemes (only allowing low % shooting opportunities) and better goaltending. I'd expect to see shooting rate go down due to obstructions hindering players.

18 hours ago, iacas said:

If you're a fan of the style of hockey that's becoming more and more prevalent, I feel sorry for you. It's a boring, slow-moving, skill-sucking game.

There's a lot of skill involved in checking, too. Doing it properly without taking a penalty is not easy to do.

The game has evolved and the offensive players had a bit of their heyday right after the lockout, but skilled defensive players and defensive schemes have caught up in this arms race. Skill has increased across the league, including "fringe" players. They're a lot more talented today than they were when I was a kid, when enforcers were basically facepunchers on skates. It used to be 4th liners were just on a team to fight; now they're actually good enough to score.

18 hours ago, iacas said:

I will stop watching if it continues. It's ridiculous. It's not hockey the way hockey is meant to be played. Hockey, played and called properly, is a beautiful, fast-paced thing to watch. This ain't that.

Best sport. Worst league.

You'd probably be a bigger fan of European style hockey, with the larger rinks. I don't think the NHL was ever meant to be soccer on ice, and it's history certainly doesn't show that at all. They wanted the smaller rink for a reason, that's to make the game more physical.

I know you also played a lot of recreational hockey where you can do a lot of skating through defenders and stuff, but that has more to do with gaps in the skill level of individual than play calling by officials. The same can be said of any league other than the NHL, really.

[Natural Patrick]

billchao seems to get it, great post.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

I don't agree. I think the NHL is as good as it's ever been, if not better than it's ever been, in all the years I've been watching hockey. They've made a lot of changes to the game to increase offensive opportunities, too much in some aspects, IMO, that have made the game faster and more exciting. You can't just make the rules completely in favor of the offensive team and hinder the defensive side of play.

The stats disagree. Scoring continues to drop. Players can grab onto others and penalties aren't called. Look at the links I posted - one of those got a penalty, and it was for all of two minutes.

You can think that the NHL is great the way it is now, but the facts don't align with your "to increase offensive opportunities" bit.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

This is stupid, but I see more of officiating teams being inconsistent from one game to another rather than from one half of a period to another, per se. Watching a game where the refs call every borderline call one day and the next where another group lets almost everything go is dumb. Unfortunately that's the problem with using people as officials; they all interpret the rules slightly different. It's similar to the problem with umpires in baseball and the strike zone.

Now, when the playoffs come around and they start letting stuff go that are clearly penalties, that's stupid. So are "makeup" calls. You can't make up a missed call with a bad call; two wrongs don't make a right.

We agree it's stupid. You can't disagree that refs are far more likely to call a penalty in the first period than the third, or to call one in October than May, for the same exact play. You also can't agree that they're more likely to call a penalty on a team that has had one penalty called against it to the other team's four penalties.

The refs will clearly state that they do this sort of thing on purpose. Read Kerry Fraser's blog. He'll plainly admit to it. And the stats all back it up, too.

Penalties should be penalties regardless of the time, the teams, the score, the time of year, the period, which team has gotten more penalties, etc. The fact that there's a concept of an "even-up" call in the NHL is proof of how stupid the whole situation has become. You agree on that.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

They're doing a decent job IMO. Their rulings are pretty good for the most part, but their fines and suspensions are weak. That's not their fault AFAIK, that's a CBA issue.

Suspensions are not a CBA issue. The DoPS has reign to punish and suspend and fine within awfully wide boundaries. Dubinsky broke his stick on a prone player nowhere near the puck.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Dubinsky was both penalized during the game and suspended afterwards in a hearing. The NHL did their job right here.

Bullshit. One game and two minutes is not adequate. If you think so, consider what he said today: it's not going to change the way he plays even the tiniest bit. One game was not enough, nor was two minutes.

No penalties on the other three plays are not adequate, either.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Looked like a clean hit, abeit a bit late. It's unfortunate that Stepan got hurt, but this hit would have warranted an interference penalty at best. Stepan didn't do his part to defend himself properly; he had time and saw the hit coming.

Pointless hit, well after he had gotten rid of the puck. The players don't have enough respect for one another, and they're not even penalized, so why not play well across the line?

1 hour ago, billchao said:

A crosscheck or a boarding call could have been made, but the injury had more to do with the door opening than anything else. If that happened when the boards were solid, he likely would have slid down along the boards instead of stopping in mid-air and all the energy of the collision transferring into his body.

You don't know that, and once again the puck was gone. Not in the area. I'm all for hitting the guy with the puck (not clutching and grabbing, but actually hitting): but when a guy gets rid of the puck and you hit him later, it's unnecessary and stupid.

That was a dangerous, unnecessary play near the boards.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Scoring is also down because goalie pads are too large, defensive schemes have changed towards shot prevention, etc. Stars can and have plenty of opportunities to separate themselves. I know you're exaggerating, but I don't see it. There are a lot more instances where a player will get through and draw a weak call because a defender happened to slap their stick or something. The second a defender even touches someone with a free hand, a penalty is called.

No, Bill, once again the stats don't back up your opinions.

Shot totals are awfully consistent and have been since 1967. Seriously, it's about 30 every year. Also, save percentages are about the same across the NHL as they were in 2005-06 when scoring was revitalized a little bit because the NHL decided they wanted more scoring so they were going to call more penalties.

History - and the stats - are not aligning with your opinions, Bill.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Unless you're talking about somebody not being able to weave their way through defensemen to get to open space, but the defense player is entitled to the space they occupy.

Nope. I'm talking about players hanging all over other players and making little to no attempt at playing the puck. Defenders don't even "stay in their lanes" though if I was going to list the types of obstructions and such, that would be on the bottom of the list because they actually tend to call that one just fine (when a forward dumps a puck and tries to slip by a defender, they do a reasonable job of not letting the defender step too far outside of his lane).

1 hour ago, billchao said:

The Chara incident was unfortunate, but still a clean rub out, it just happened to find a flawed design in the boards (which they've subsequently changed). If it happened on the other side of the ice, nobody would have thought anything of it.

Bill, c'mon. Cut the crap.

Pacioretty took two steps AFTER he sent the puck away BEFORE Chara shoved his face into the divider. The puck was not there. It was long gone.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

I think a large part of power play opportunities being so much higher in the few years after the lockout than now is more due to the fact that player's had to relearn how to play the game because things they were used to doing were suddenly penalties. Now that everyone has adjusted, everything kind of tapered off.

No. They're not calling the same things penalties. They're allowing more clutching, grabbing, obstruction, and interference. They called the rules closer to the rules in 2005-06 than they are now. Players haven't "learned" anything - if anything, they've learned they can get away with a hell of a lot and barely even risk a penalty. Again, of the four "plays" I mentioned, we saw 2:00 and a one-game suspension.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Goals per game has also held steady for the last five years, not dropped, but the biggest culprit in my opinion is SV% going up every year.

It has dropped. Save percentage is going up at a much slower pace than goals per game are going down. GPG was over 6 in 2005-06 and is nearly below 5.3 these days. The NHL has made statements about how "exciting" they think a 1-0 or a 2-1 game is. They want to see low-scoring hockey. They think it's more exciting than a 6-4 game.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

There's a lot of skill involved in checking, too. Doing it properly without taking a penalty is not easy to do.

I agree that there's a skill to checking, legally. But all too often, we see:

• Checks that are late, and thus, not legal.
• Clutching and grabbing and obstructing and interfering without trying to play the puck. That too is illegal.

The problem is that neither of those are called with the frequency that they should be. It slows the game down. It forces great, skilled players to have to drag people on their backs while trying to control the puck.

Just look at how often players take one of their hands off their stick when they're defending someone. What are they doing with that free hand? Why, most of the time… they're grabbing on, or doing something else that's not legal per the rules of hockey.

We're not seeing some massive defensive collective rising up and showing off. We're seeing boring ass clutch-and-grab hockey that limits the speed, skill, and creativity on the ice.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

The game has evolved and the offensive players had a bit of their heyday right after the lockout, but skilled defensive players and defensive schemes have caught up in this arms race.

No, clutching and grabbing, interfering and obstructing does not take much skill.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Skill has increased across the league, including "fringe" players. They're a lot more talented today than they were when I was a kid, when enforcers were basically facepunchers on skates. It used to be 4th liners were just on a team to fight; now they're actually good enough to score.

I agree that face-punchers are largely gone, but you're vastly over-estimating the skills of many NHL players who, again, narrow the gap by clutching and grabbing.

It's like cavity-backed clubs - they let lesser players compete with Tiger or whomever when if they were all forced to play tiny little blades the gap in skill would be larger.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

I'd expect to see shooting rate go down due to obstructions hindering players.

Shooting percentage has continued to drop.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

You'd probably be a bigger fan of European style hockey, with the larger rinks.

You seem to be falling prey to the line of thinking that bigger sheets of ice mean more player skill can be demonstrated, but you typically see more skill on display in the Olympics because… the referees call the games closer to the rules.

You can't compare the European leagues, either, because the skill gap is simply too large on both sides of the puck, PLUS the referees, PLUS the ice size, etc. Too many differences.

Generally speaking, though, yes: Europeans and Russians tend to emphasize skill over "good ol' tough Canadian clutch and grab" hockey. The Canadian way is to suspend a player for a whopping one whole game despite two intentional cross-checks to the neck and back (the latter delivered while prone and with enough force to break the stick) of a player nowhere near the puck.

The Canadian way is ruining hockey.

I'm good with physical play. I was always more physical when I played hockey, just as I'm a bit more physical when I play soccer.

But it's when the ball or puck is there, and it's legal. It's not grabbing people (either sport), it wasn't hitting them away from the play (hockey), and it wasn't throwing elbows (hockey) or hacking at their legs (soccer).

1 hour ago, billchao said:

I know you also played a lot of recreational hockey where you can do a lot of skating through defenders and stuff, but that has more to do with gaps in the skill level of individual than play calling by officials. The same can be said of any league other than the NHL, really.

I'm not talking about my rec hockey, Bill. I'm talking about the N-H-L.

58 minutes ago, Natural Patrick said:

billchao seems to get it, great post.

No, NP… unlike you, Bill posted with something more than roughly "you suck Erik."

I'm glad you agree with Bill. I don't, and I don't think the stats support him as much as he thinks they do, either. I'm not alone in this, either.

It's a growing sentiment around the league, and it stands in direct contrast to how the NFL and even MLB have handled things recently: by letting offenses flourish.

To summarize, my problems with the NHL boil down to shitty officiating. The officiating:

• Changes depending on the time, score, period, teams, penalty differential, etc.
• Doesn't call the rule book as written.

That's it. Call the rules as written and players will learn to adjust. Skill will be allowed to display itself once again on a more frequent basis.

1B would be the DoPS sucks at handing out supplemental discipline. But if the refs called the games the way they should be called, DoPS might not have as many cases in front of them.

[iacas]

Executive summary of the above:

I want penalties called consistently and as they're written in the rules. This would virtually eliminate obstruction, interference, clutching, and grabbing. It would NOT eliminate checks, play along the boards while the puck is there, jostling for position in front of the net, etc. It will allow skill to display itself, and allow for more exciting hockey.

That's it. The NHL gets more and more boring to watch every year, and the skill gap closes every year more than the actual skill gap closes, but because of clutching, grabbing, etc.

[mcanadiens]

It's probably fair to say that the penalties aren't getting called nearly as often as they did post-lockout. That said, it's nowhere near as bad as it was before the lockout. 

I also saw someone refer to the skill of the goaltenders and that might be true to a small degree. My feeling is that defensive players and systems are simply on the uptick. How many times have you seen odd-man rushes recently? You guys can argue skill, but playing defense is about discipline and consistency. Today's blue liners are always in position these days.

Recently the focus has been on the concussion issues. They want to take any sort of violent contact out of the game and have done a big job of it. Perhaps it would be a good time for a crackdown on the obstruction infractions. ... Wait. Habs have the fourth ranked power play and second-ranked penalty kill. Yup. Break out the whistles.

[iacas]

http://www.tsn.ca/former-players-ctv-s-w5-petition-court-to-unseal-secret-nhl-emails-1.402067

The first comment:

Quote

Colon Campbell thinks the league should sell rivalries and hate. Hockey fans think they should sell skill and excitement. There's the entire problem with the NHL in two lines.Colon Campbell thinks the league should sell rivalries and hate. Hockey fans think they should sell skill and excitement. There's the entire problem with the NHL in two lines.Colon Campbell thinks the league should sell rivalries and hate. Hockey fans think they should sell skill and excitement. There's the entire problem with the NHL in two lines.Colon Campbell thinks the league should sell rivalries and hate. Hockey fans think they should sell skill and excitement. There's the entire problem with the NHL in two lines.

That's tangentially related to the stuff just above.

[mcanadiens]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

http://www.tsn.ca/former-players-ctv-s-w5-petition-court-to-unseal-secret-nhl-emails-1.402067

The first comment:

That's tangentially related to the stuff just above.

As soon as the NFL started having their legal problems, you had to know the NHL would be close to follow. Obviously some of these guys have some real serious problems. Anyone can feel some sympathy for them just like the legions of broken-down ex-NFLers out there. The long-term consequences of concussions may well have been withheld from some players. The lawyers will surely do their usual number there. 

The article itself is a bit of "no duh". Is it really a surprise that the NHL knows it sells violence? Pro hockey has been all about violence since the day it was born. Why would anyone think NHL officials would not acknowledge the fact in its own internal e-mails. 

 

[Ernest Jones]

On November 30, 2015 at 5:02:21 PM, mcanadiens said:

It's probably fair to say that the penalties aren't getting called nearly as often as they did post-lockout. That said, it's nowhere near as bad as it was before the lockout. 

I also saw someone refer to the skill of the goaltenders and that might be true to a small degree. My feeling is that defensive players and systems are simply on the uptick. How many times have you seen odd-man rushes recently? You guys can argue skill, but playing defense is about discipline and consistency. Today's blue liners are always in position these days.

Recently the focus has been on the concussion issues. They want to take any sort of violent contact out of the game and have done a big job of it. Perhaps it would be a good time for a crackdown on the obstruction infractions. ... Wait. Habs have the fourth ranked power play and second-ranked penalty kill. Yup. Break out the whistles.

With Price out for a minimum of 6 weeks, we'll need all the whistles we can get!

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

The article itself is a bit of "no duh". Is it really a surprise that the NHL knows it sells violence? Pro hockey has been all about violence since the day it was born. Why would anyone think NHL officials would not acknowledge the fact in its own internal e-mails. 

The NFL sells "violence" too but they've realized that they sell other things - perhaps far more so - than violence as well.

At the end of the day both sports ultimately sell entertainment. The NFL has taken big steps to expand beyond "violence as entertainment" into "skill and scoring as entertainment."

I wish the NHL would follow suit. You can sell "hate" or whatever the one email said, too, when one team beats a hated rival 5-4 just as easily as you can when they beat them 2-1. The former will likely be more entertaining, though.