Major Cheating and Personally Interpreting the Rules

[HonestyPolicy]

I just came back from North Carolina where I played with a "now former" friend who cheated his butt off and tried to convince us that it is OK to fluff his ball anywhere except a hazard, but he also reserved the right to rake a bunker if he decided he didn't like his lie, and then place the ball afterwards on the sand. I mean he insists on playing at least one tee box in front of the rest of us for starters, but that's fine as long as he submits to section 3-5, but now he's cheating too and pretending it's not cheating. The most flagrant violation was when he hit his second shot over the green and it went down the bank and into the unmarked fescue. He picked up his ball out of the 4 foot high fescue, moved it up the hill closer to the pin, placed it on the rough nice and fluffy like, chipped it next to the hole and declared par. He was clearly DQ because he cheated and when we emphasized it he lost his freaking mind screaming and yelling at us that we were @ssholes. So we wouldn't play him for money, or a drink, or even bragging rights, but after our 6 days of golf were over he grabbed all the scorecards and declared himself the overall winner. Looking at the summary he produced, he made a series of  convenient calculation errors "where necessary" like using our indexes instead of our course handicaps and misreading the difference in course ratings when applying section 3-5, effectively gaining himself up to four additional and inappropriate strokes.

He has multiple excuses: "I'm old", "I don't hit the ball far anymore", "this is the way we do it at my course", and so on and so on. Of course he wasn't the oldest of us, he has never hit the ball far because he hits a big left to right banana ball, and he leads his senior league in standings (what a surprise huh?) probably because of his "creative" approach to the rules.  Anyway, I don't want to go on and on about his lack of honesty and integrity, but I'll finish by telling you that he equaled or beat his course handicap all six days.

The USGA says that you should equal your handicap 1 out of 5 times or 20% of the time. To determine the chances of eqauling your handicap 6 rounds in a row you just multiply, so 5x5x5x5x5x5 means that his chances of equaling his handicap 6 days in a row are  15,625 to 1. He beat his handicap 5 days and equaled it once. When confronted with this information his response is "you guys bring out the best in me" which is the #1 excuse sandbaggers use per PopeofSlope.

I'll never play golf with this low life again, but I do have a question for those who got this far:

When a course is under "Preferred Lies" which I understand is determined and posted by the committee, is preferred lies always in your own fairway? Is there any case where it can be declared as anywhere "through the green" (meaning in the rough too)? I can't seem to find the answer. My followup question is, if preferred lies does specifically mean only in ones fairway, then is a person who fluffs the ball in the rough also breaking the rules of golf by posting a score? As I understand it, if a person plays a round of golf but does not follow the rules of golf (like playing in a 3 club event for instance, or in this case fluffing the ball in the rough) is he also breaking the handicap rules by posting his score?

My sense is that if one is fluffing the ball in the rough even under preferred lies, that he is not following the rules of golf and as such he can not post that score. Am I right and if so, where do I find that in the rulebook?

Thanks......

[saevel25]

He sounds like a classic sandbagger.

When a course is under "Preferred Lies" which I understand is determined and posted by the committee, is preferred lies always in your own fairway? Is there any case where it can be declared as anywhere "through the green" (meaning in the rough too)?

Here is the rules on Preferred Lies. It is only allowable in closely mown areas. Correct, fluffing the lie in the rough is against the rules.

c. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules”

Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25 and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.

However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When such conditions are so general throughout acourse that the Committee believes “preferred lies” or “winter rules” would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green (or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole) may be lifted, without penalty, and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within (specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.) of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it is placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club, he incurs a penalty of one stroke.

Note: “Closely mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

[HonestyPolicy]

Thanks for the information.

So as I understand it then, a course can technically make a preferred lies local rule that does allow preferred lies in the rough because the rules of golf only recommend how to apply preferred lies, it does not require their recommendation to be followed. I mean question aside, yes he is a monster sandbagger,  but he has also apparently convinced his club to make a local rule allowing preferred lies in the rough. Of course this local rule is only an advantage for golfers like him who don't hit fairways and greens gaining them an advantage over golfers who do hit fairways and greens, and it plays right into my former friends wheelhouse. So not only does he sandbag, and cheat, he manipulates too. Is it any wonder why I'm not the only one who won't play golf with him anymore......

So if a course's PGA pro and the course committee were approached and challenged that their course was not applying preferred lies correctly in their local rules, they could respond by saying that the USGA only provides a recommendation and as such they can apply preferred lies anyway they wish, and that posting of scores using their local rule is appropriate per rule 7-1.

Seems like the use of the word "recommend" provides a loophole that can be exploited by those who do not play the game in good faith. I'm sure there must be a good reason why the USGA only recommends how to apply preferred lies, but I'm not sure what it is. Any idea? And do you agree a club could technically allow preferred lies in the rough because the USGA only recommends how to apply preferred lies?

Thanks for your time on this.

[Club Rat]

Sometimes, the golf committee will declare local rules which allow "lift / clean / place" everywhere except hazards.

And sometimes sand bunkers when specified.

Those are rare occasions, due to extreme wet conditions.

Our winter rules are generally ball in hand everywhere except hazards, when course conditions are poor.

During winter periods, our region is closed for score postings.

Tough situation when a friendship is ruined over misunderstandings and unable to communicate in a friendly manner.

If he doesn't come around and accept the fact that he was in the wrong, I'd say good riddance and never allow him to participate in our group, until he fully understands the ROG and if caught again, banned forever and ever,

Club Rat

[dkolo]

The typical preferred lies is for fairwayish lies, but if memory serves, even the PGA Tour had an event this year where they did preferred lies everywhere besides hazards through the green one round after some nasty weather.

[flopster]

Your former friend is a crybaby who thinks he's entitled to special rules because he can't hit it as far because he will not take the time to learn to swing the club more correctly so he doesn't slice as much, how pathetic is that.

[Gunther]

Ya, I'm not sure how he ever was a friend, golf course behavior generally correlates to other aspects in life. What pisses me off about the prick is that he gets offended and irate when you call him on his obvious cheating. I've had this situation occur. I called 2 guys out in my group (separate times) and they both put up a stink and made me out to be the bad guy. I told them we don't care how they want to score but if you're not following our group rules, don't put your money in the pot. No avail. Other guys in my group back me up but it's always left to me to confront cuz the others just want to "get along." Oh well, my integrity is intact but I can't help but feel bad about it, which is what angers me about the cheater's reaction. Rant over.

[rkim291968]

The USGA says that you should equal your handicap 1 out of 5 times or 20% of the time. To determine the chances of eqauling your handicap 6 rounds in a row you just multiply, so 5x5x5x5x5x5 means that his chances of equaling his handicap 6 days in a row are  15,625 to 1. He beat his handicap 5 days and equaled it once. When confronted with this information his response is "you guys bring out the best in me" which is the #1 excuse sandbaggers use per PopeofSlope.

LOL.   I see this with too many of my club members.   The same folks are occupying the top finishes seemingly in every tournament and their most oft repeated reason?    They focus and play better in tournaments.   What my observation has been that many of them manage their handicap with casual rounds (casually missing tap ins, giving up on holes, trying/practicing shots, i.e, they don't do their best).   If my club only counts tournament scores for handicapping purpose, it will level plane the field quite a bit.   A few will still find other ways to cheat but there is really no hope for them.   Your former friends seems to belong to the latter.

[Elmer]

I used to play with a guy who never, ever hit out of a bunker. He would declare, loudly "I dont know what is in that trap. I'm not breaking a club on a rock".

He would toss his ball out of the bunker and play on.

No one questioned him because he would become irrate and there was no money on the line.

Eventually the guy rationalized his game with it is his money and he will get the result he is happy with.

If you are not playing for anything, let the guy be a schmuck.

If there is a bet on, I would not with play him.

[Martyn W]

He sounds like a classic sandbagger.

Here is the rules on Preferred Lies. It is only allowable in closely mown areas. Correct, fluffing the lie in the rough is against the rules.

The recommendation is closely mown areas but it is permissible to allow LCP through the green, As someone pointed out, that was the case in a PGA event earlier this year.

Couple more points: 'closely mown areas does NOT mean your just own fairway. As a bit of trivia, the word 'fairway' appears only one time in the Rules Book which is where we also find our internal definition of closely mown. That is 25-2 (embedded ball)

[Big C]

I knew a guy like that once and played a few rounds with him through a mutual friend. Every round he would take some creative liberties to make sure he was "winning." He would mis-remember strokes (always to his benefit), give himself favorable lies, pick up anything within 4 feet. What's funny is that we weren't even playing for anything, just pride. All the same, he would make a point to announce his victories at the end of the day - "I got you by two shots today," etc - while we had a beer in bar afterward. I was the young guy in the group, so I never said anything, nor did I really care what he did in a casual round.

But after a few interactions with this guy, I couldn't help but ask my buddy, "what's this guy's deal?" As it turned out, golf was apparently everything to him. He was never married, had few friends to speak of (outside of his golfing buddies), no outside interests and spent most of his time in and around the course. As such, his entire sense of self worth was apparently tied to his golf game and how well he could score that day. A bad round was a direct blow to his entire sense of purpose, and so he had to find creative and unethical ways to make sure those bad rounds never appeared on the scorecard. After hearing that, I went from being annoyed by his actions, to mostely feeling sorry for him.

To the OP above, all I can say to you is, just be glad you aren't him.

[Rulesman]

The typical preferred lies is for fairwayish lies, but if memory serves, even the PGA Tour had an event this year where they did preferred lies everywhere besides hazards through the green one round after some nasty weather.

Following that event I asked the R&A; about it. I got the following response.

It is permissible, if conditions are such that it is warranted, to extend preferred lies to through the green – we have grown more relaxed in this area in recent years. That said, and I cannot stress this strongly enough, obviously this should be used sparingly and only where absolutely necessary , e.g. to facilitate play in the winter. If a course is having to do this at other times of the year there is probably an agronomy/course maintenance problem.

[Rulesman]

When a course is under "Preferred Lies" which I understand is determined and posted by the committee, is preferred lies always in your own fairway?

Thanks......

This from the R&A; some years ago.

It has been our position that it is permissible to limit the operation of the Local Rule for preferred lies to certain areas, e.g. specific fairways or the fairway of the hole being played.

[Psyber]

Were you playing for money? If not I wouldn't lose a friend over it. Just don't invite him back much or if he is a good friend otherwise just let him do what he wants. Only cheating himself if it's not for money.

[MrFlipper]

Ya, I'm not sure how he ever was a friend, golf course behavior generally correlates to other aspects in life.

What pisses me off about the prick is that he gets offended and irate when you call him on his obvious cheating. I've had this situation occur. I called 2 guys out in my group (separate times) and they both put up a stink and made me out to be the bad guy. I told them we don't care how they want to score but if you're not following our group rules, don't put your money in the pot. No avail. Other guys in my group back me up but it's always left to me to confront cuz the others just want to "get along."

Oh well, my integrity is intact but I can't help but feel bad about it, which is what angers me about the cheater's reaction. Rant over.

If you change 'prick' to 'girl' and 'offended and irate' to 'all teary', this could have been written by Suzann Pettersen---

[newtogolf]

It's unfortunate that some feel the need to cheat.  I play in a group on Thursdays that range from 12 - 16 golfers.  10 of us are regulars and the rest of the group is made up of friends of the regulars who are available that week.  This past Thursday one of these "friends" was part of our foursome.

He claimed he had an 18 course handicap and overall he had a decent swing so I didn't think much about it until the 2nd hole when he took 3 shots to get out of the woods, 3 more to reach the green and 3 putted but claimed he scored a 6 on the hole.  We play a $10 Nassau with the two best scores on each hole counting towards the team score.  His score didn't factor into the team score so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and wrote down a 6.

He did this numerous times, taking 7 or more strokes and telling me he scored a 5 or 6.  Towards the end he'd ask his cart partner what he scored and would just take that score.  Fortunately I was keeping score and wouldn't use his score in our team scores unless I was certain the score was legit.  In fairness to him, he did have some good scores on holes that helped the team but on his bad holes he'd just lie about his score.

When the round was over I mentioned to the regular that his friend had a creative way of keeping score, he laughed and said yeah, he never writes anything down higher than a 6.  I told him I didn't count his scores towards our team score unless I one of the other guys would confirm the score.   The kicker was that the cheater had scored lower than his buddy (the regular) so when we went to the 19th hole for drinks the cheater was bragging about how great he played and that his buddy should be embarrassed that he was outscored by him when he doesn't play as often.   The things we put up with for friends.

[DrvFrShow]

I'm going to start a thread.

[Gunther]

It's unfortunate that some feel the need to cheat.  I play in a group on Thursdays that range from 12 - 16 golfers.  10 of us are regulars and the rest of the group is made up of friends of the regulars who are available that week.  This past Thursday one of these "friends" was part of our foursome. He claimed he had an 18 course handicap and overall he had a decent swing so I didn't think much about it until the 2nd hole when he took 3 shots to get out of the woods, 3 more to reach the green and 3 putted but claimed he scored a 6 on the hole.  We play a $10 Nassau with the two best scores on each hole counting towards the team score.  His score didn't factor into the team score so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and wrote down a 6. He did this numerous times, taking 7 or more strokes and telling me he scored a 5 or 6.  Towards the end he'd ask his cart partner what he scored and would just take that score.  Fortunately I was keeping score and wouldn't use his score in our team scores unless I was certain the score was legit.  In fairness to him, he did have some good scores on holes that helped the team but on his bad holes he'd just lie about his score.  When the round was over I mentioned to the regular that his friend had a creative way of keeping score, he laughed and said yeah, he never writes anything down higher than a 6.  I told him I didn't count his scores towards our team score unless I one of the other guys would confirm the score.   The kicker was that the cheater had scored lower than his buddy (the regular) so when we went to the 19th hole for drinks the cheater was bragging about how great he played and that his buddy should be embarrassed that he was outscored by him when he doesn't play as often.   The things we put up with for friends.

This is the same behavior I had to deal with. In both cases, the guys were good golfers, one played pro for awhile (knows Kevin Na real well) and the other played college golf. Once some get to a certain level, I think it's hard for them to accept their decline. The former pro would simply cheat; drop balls out of his pocket, stuff like that. The former college player just wouldn't put a 6 on his card. He'd make triple and come off the hole and say "5 please, sir." In which case I would promptly write down 7. They were good players so won money frequently and I just couldn't stomach it anymore. I didn't kick em out of the group but told em they couldn't play the money game with us and I never saw either one again. So frustrating.