Major Cheating and Personally Interpreting the Rules

[newtogolf]

This is the same behavior I had to deal with. In both cases, the guys were good golfers, one played pro for awhile (knows Kevin Na real well) and the other played college golf. Once some get to a certain level, I think it's hard for them to accept their decline.

The former pro would simply cheat; drop balls out of his pocket, stuff like that. The former college player just wouldn't put a 6 on his card. He'd make triple and come off the hole and say "5 please, sir." In which case I would promptly write down 7. They were good players so won money frequently and I just couldn't stomach it anymore.

I didn't kick em out of the group but told em they couldn't play the money game with us and I never saw either one again. So frustrating.

It is frustrating but even more concerning is that this guy was willing to basically "steal" money from his friend for vanity purposes.  Our team didn't win a dime so justice was served but if someone else was scoring they might not have paid as much attention as I did and allowed his scores to impact the outcome of the wagers.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

It's unfortunate that some feel the need to cheat.  I play in a group on Thursdays that range from 12 - 16 golfers.  10 of us are regulars and the rest of the group is made up of friends of the regulars who are available that week.  This past Thursday one of these "friends" was part of our foursome.

He claimed he had an 18 course handicap and overall he had a decent swing so I didn't think much about it until the 2nd hole when he took 3 shots to get out of the woods, 3 more to reach the green and 3 putted but claimed he scored a 6 on the hole.  We play a $10 Nassau with the two best scores on each hole counting towards the team score.  His score didn't factor into the team score so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and wrote down a 6.

He did this numerous times, taking 7 or more strokes and telling me he scored a 5 or 6.  Towards the end he'd ask his cart partner what he scored and would just take that score.  Fortunately I was keeping score and wouldn't use his score in our team scores unless I was certain the score was legit.  In fairness to him, he did have some good scores on holes that helped the team but on his bad holes he'd just lie about his score.

When the round was over I mentioned to the regular that his friend had a creative way of keeping score, he laughed and said yeah, he never writes anything down higher than a 6.  I told him I didn't count his scores towards our team score unless I one of the other guys would confirm the score.   The kicker was that the cheater had scored lower than his buddy (the regular) so when we went to the 19th hole for drinks the cheater was bragging about how great he played and that his buddy should be embarrassed that he was outscored by him when he doesn't play as often.   The things we put up with for friends.

This is the same behavior I had to deal with. In both cases, the guys were good golfers, one played pro for awhile (knows Kevin Na real well) and the other played college golf. Once some get to a certain level, I think it's hard for them to accept their decline.

The former pro would simply cheat; drop balls out of his pocket, stuff like that. The former college player just wouldn't put a 6 on his card. He'd make triple and come off the hole and say "5 please, sir." In which case I would promptly write down 7. They were good players so won money frequently and I just couldn't stomach it anymore.

I didn't kick em out of the group but told em they couldn't play the money game with us and I never saw either one again. So frustrating.

Are they applying ESC to their score?   That'd be the only somewhat plausible explanation - "I reached my max, so put down 6."

[Gunther]

Are they applying ESC to their score?   That'd be the only somewhat plausible explanation - "I reached my max, so put down 6."

Haha, I wish there was an explanation such as that. Neither could accept the fact they are now 5-8 handicappers after once being scratch or better. It really was that simple...and sad.

[ay33660]

To the OP is this guy a good friend off the golf course.

One of my best friends always improves his lie in the rough.

Great guy off the course and I always enjoy golfing with him.

I just don't ever bet with him on the course.

It sounds like this guy is not really someone you want to hang with off the course.

[imsys0042]

I knew a guy like that once and played a few rounds with him through a mutual friend. Every round he would take some creative liberties to make sure he was "winning." He would mis-remember strokes (always to his benefit), give himself favorable lies, pick up anything within 4 feet. What's funny is that we weren't even playing for anything, just pride. All the same, he would make a point to announce his victories at the end of the day - "I got you by two shots today," etc - while we had a beer in bar afterward. I was the young guy in the group, so I never said anything, nor did I really care what he did in a casual round. But after a few interactions with this guy, I couldn't help but ask my buddy, "what's this guy's deal?" As it turned out, golf was apparently everything to him. He was never married, had few friends to speak of (outside of his golfing buddies), no outside interests and spent most of his time in and around the course. As such, his entire sense of self worth was apparently tied to his golf game and how well he could score that day. A bad round was a direct blow to his entire sense of purpose, and so he had to find creative and unethical ways to make sure those bad rounds never appeared on the scorecard. After hearing that, I went from being annoyed by his actions, to mostely feeling sorry for him. To the OP above, all I can say to you is, just be glad you aren't him.

Wow, I can really say that reading this has really helped me. I moved to where I am now a few years ago and I work out of my house. I've had a miserable time here, with little chance to go out with other people except for golf and I've been very lonely. My kids are at a tough age and it wears me out and sometimes, to me inexplicably, I get incredibly upset with my golf game on a bad day. Usually I just get bothered after I get home but sometimes I get upset/sad/angry on the course. It's taken me a while to try and figure out why and it's a combination of being very anxious around people and feeling rejected, but this nails it too. Golf is the only thing I generally have going that shouldn't stress me out but when it goes wrong I feel like the world is ending. This actually makes a lot of sense to me and gives me something to think about. Thank you.

[RGoosen]

Were you playing for money? If not I wouldn't lose a friend over it. Just don't invite him back much or if he is a good friend otherwise just let him do what he wants. Only cheating himself if it's not for money.

Well said.

I would go on step further, that it is cheating if you are in a competition period where you turn in scores period (even if money is not involved).  If he is not turning in scores for a competition or recording the round for his handicap then who cares.  He might as well be practicing for a scramble tournament.  If he is a good friend I wouldn't stop playing practice rounds with him, but I would let him know that under no circumstances could you play in a competitive round with him unless he got his act together.

[HonestyPolicy]

Thanks to everyone for your posts. No we wouldn't play him for money. He wanted us to, but we wouldn't for the obvious reasons. Of course, he did grab the scorecards for the 6 days of golf and using creative math, you know how they say "figures don't lie, only liars figure", he declared himself the overall grand winner, even though we wouldn't play him for anything. In the end it's all mental masturbation for him........I hope he enjoyed his last fantasy involving me.

Peace. Thanks.

Work hard, shoot low.

[Shorty]

These people are, without exception, awful people.

You can't be a nice person and a blatant golf cheat.

People who cheat at golf are dishonest. Period. They are dishonest and deceitful in others aspects of their lives.

This person is treating you with total disrespect.

It's about character and golf reveals it in the same way that litter bugs are always nasty people. They don't care what others think and enjoy frustrating other people with their entitled attitude.

[rcwkent]

I joined another single in mid-round last week at a course I was unfamiliar with. I wasn't keeping a score.

I noticed him rolling his ball to a better lie a couple times and  kicking away a 3 foot putt.

So when we got to the 17th hole, with a pond in front of the green, I couldn't tell the carry yardage,  and I replaced the tour

ball I was playing with a ball I had just found...I was shocked when he said ""ÿou know that you have to play the same ball you started the hole  with"".

I just said ""noted"" and swung away.

[RGoosen]

I joined another single in mid-round last week at a course I was unfamiliar with. I wasn't keeping a score. I noticed him rolling his ball to a better lie a couple times and  kicking away a 3 foot putt. So when we got to the 17th hole, with a pond in front of the green, I couldn't tell the carry yardage,  and I replaced the tour ball I was playing with a ball I had just found...I was shocked when he said ""ÿou know that you have to play the same ball you started the hole  with"". I just said ""noted"" and swung away.

Surely he was making a joke?!?!

[saevel25]

Surely he was making a joke?!?!

I doubt it. A lot of people who cheat like that will easily be hypocrites about it.

[HonestyPolicy]

One final Point from the OP:

In no way am I saying that people should not have fun on the golf course. If you and your buddy, or buddies, are out playing golf and you want to play by some set of rules you all agree to, and yes make certain everyone agrees, then by all means do it. Have Fun. Fun means different things to different people, so whatever fun means to you.

But as you make the decision to not follow the "rules of golf" you must also recognize and avoid the following:

1 - Do not post your score to the Ghin System or any other system that calculates and certifies a handicap for you.

The handicap manual states that if you are not playing by the "rules of golf", you can not post your score.

If you do post a score, then you are cheating, you are likely cheating yourself in this case, but cheating is cheating.

2 - Avoid competition with others who are playing by the "rules of golf" for any prize. I would suggest that "a prize" not only includes trophies, money, a drink,

washing the winners car, etc, etc, but also it includes bragging rights. You have no business bragging if you did not follow the "rules of golf" when

your opponents did, so if you must brag, then go brag to the guy in the mirror and see how much he's impressed, because believe me, no one else is.

3 - Do not enter tournaments where others are playing by the "rules of golf" if you do not want to play by them. The rules cover stroke play and match play formats.

If you don't want to play by the rules then play in scrambles and other formats that aren't governed by the rules. Oh they'll have their own set of rules they'll

expect you to follow, but they are often greatly relaxed which many beginners and casual golfers seem to enjoy.

The message here is that golf is a game, and as a game it has rules, just like monopoly, or poker, or horseshoes......or life.....and the rules are designed to make the game as fair as possible for the vast majority of people. Are all rules perfect? Nothing is perfect, but if you want to decide that you are in the minority of people that these rules don't work for, it is highly likely you are mistaken. But still, you have options and they are: 1-Make it your life's work to try to change the rules (good luck with that one), 2-Follow them, take some lessons, try to improve, and do the best you can (it's called character and it's what the vast majority of us work hard to gain, develop, and protect), 3-Don't play. Cheating in golf (and any other game) is not an option and if you do then you deserve the consequences what ever they may be.

Again thanks to all the posters.

[turtleback]

These people are, without exception, awful people.

You can't be a nice person and a blatant golf cheat.

People who cheat at golf are dishonest. Period. They are dishonest and deceitful in others aspects of their lives.

This person is treating you with total disrespect.

It's about character and golf reveals it in the same way that litter bugs are always nasty people. They don't care what others think and enjoy frustrating other people with their entitled attitude.

Agree, although I have no problem with someone who goes out and bats the ball around as a recreational leisure activity and ignores or violates the rules (so long as they don't hold up play or do stupid things like hit into people).  But when someone purports to be a serious enough golfer to talk about their score, let alone maintain a hcap, play in a competition, or play money matches, and they pull this kind of crap I just do not have enough respect for a person like that to even WANT to be their friend.  So in my little world one no one can be in all three categories

a) serious golfer (as defined above)

b) ignore or violate rules

c) my friend.

They can be any 2 out of 3.

But not all 3.

[No Mulligans]

These people are, without exception, awful people.

You can't be a nice person and a blatant golf cheat.

People who cheat at golf are dishonest. Period. They are dishonest and deceitful in others aspects of their lives.

This person is treating you with total disrespect.

It's about character and golf reveals it in the same way that litter bugs are always nasty people. They don't care what others think and enjoy frustrating other people with their entitled attitude.

I haven't read very many posts in this thread, I hope this statement needs some context that you didn't include.

I encourage my wife to do things to make the game easier on her.  Like when she is frustrated and hit a ball in a hazard, I'll say just find a nice place to drop somewhere around here, she doesn't one club distance and mark the spot from where she can drop, oh the humanity (she does take the penalty stroke).  She doesn't have a handicap, doesn't compete with anyone but herself, her progress at this point is measured more by how well she strikes the ball and not her score, she does keep score.  Like most, she plays for fun.

And you're going to lay all that on her?

It's just a game.  No ones getting hurt here.  It's not like we're trying to cure cancer or stop world hunger.  Get some perspective.

[Jeremie Boop]

I haven't read very many posts in this thread, I hope this statement needs some context that you didn't include.

I encourage my wife to do things to make the game easier on her.  Like when she is frustrated and hit a ball in a hazard, I'll say just find a nice place to drop somewhere around here, she doesn't one club distance and mark the spot from where she can drop, oh the humanity (she does take the penalty stroke).  She doesn't have a handicap, doesn't compete with anyone but herself, her progress at this point is measured more by how well she strikes the ball and not her score, she does keep score.  Like most, she plays for fun.

And you're going to lay all that on her?

It's just a game.  No ones getting hurt here.  It's not like we're trying to cure cancer or stop world hunger.  Get some perspective.

There's a difference between what you have your wife do and someone who cheats. I doubt he'd lump her in with those he's calling cheaters.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGoosen

Surely he was making a joke?!?!

I doubt it. A lot of people who cheat like that will easily be hypocrites about it.

Or to throw off the scent stench of their own cheating?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty

These people are, without exception, awful people.

You can't be a nice person and a blatant golf cheat.

People who cheat at golf are dishonest. Period. They are dishonest and deceitful in others aspects of their lives.

This person is treating you with total disrespect.

It's about character and golf reveals it in the same way that litter bugs are always nasty people. They don't care what others think and enjoy frustrating other people with their entitled attitude.

I haven't read very many posts in this thread, I hope this statement needs some context that you didn't include.

I encourage my wife to do things to make the game easier on her.  Like when she is frustrated and hit a ball in a hazard, I'll say just find a nice place to drop somewhere around here, she doesn't one club distance and mark the spot from where she can drop, oh the humanity (she does take the penalty stroke).  She doesn't have a handicap, doesn't compete with anyone but herself, her progress at this point is measured more by how well she strikes the ball and not her score, she does keep score.  Like most, she plays for fun.

And you're going to lay all that on her?

It's just a game.  No ones getting hurt here.  It's not like we're trying to cure cancer or stop world hunger.  Get some perspective.

But your wife probably doesn't carry an official handicap and just plays for fun?

[HonestyPolicy]

Dear Mr No Mulligans,

If you read the posts you'd see that we all agree about people who just want to go out and have fun and this post is not about that.

Your comments are way out of context. Go back and read the posts and you'll see this is about cheating during competition, whether

it's friendly competition or the US Open. Fun for people who are out for just that is not the subject of this post unless you think

cheating and then bragging about beating others who were playing by the rules is "fun".

So since you had to make a comment about the rest of us "needing to get some perspective", when in fact you are the one that needs it,

I'll add more; If you are going to be so lazy as to not check what or who you are shooting at, then someday you will shoot a loved one.

Let this be a lesson to you. Look before you leap (and if you don't want to look, then don't leap).

[RGoosen]

I haven't read very many posts in this thread, I hope this statement needs some context that you didn't include. I encourage my wife to do things to make the game easier on her.  Like when she is frustrated and hit a ball in a hazard, I'll say just find a nice place to drop somewhere around here, she doesn't one club distance and mark the spot from where she can drop, oh the humanity (she does take the penalty stroke).  She doesn't have a handicap, doesn't compete with anyone but herself, her progress at this point is measured more by how well she strikes the ball and not her score, she does keep score.  Like most, she plays for fun. And you're going to lay all that on her? It's just a game.  No ones getting hurt here.  It's not like we're trying to cure cancer or stop world hunger.  Get some perspective.

I seriously doubt that is the intentions. The topic started with a group of guys in a golf outing where scores were turned in (not sure what the stakes were or if it was just for bragging rights). As far as what your wife does I am all for that especially if she is not entering into competitions any time soon. I sometimes will take six to eight weeks off after a golf lesson where I don't keep score to work on my game. Even if I wanted to record the round I am not supposed to under the rules of recording my handicap. When I get back on track I'll play one ball by the rules and record my scores. Golf is meant to be fun and torturing yourself before you are ready for competition will only make people quit golf prematurely. Glad your wife is willing to pick up the game. :)