Measurement from cart path (Immovable Object)

[CoachB25]

This is my second post so bear with me.  One of my players is playing in a position where her ball is up against a cart path.  She has 20 yards to the green and the cart path turns 90 degrees where her ball is.  She understands the rules as I do.  She gets relief from the cart path and her stance.  Here is the rub.  She has taken out her wood (driver) to take the measurement.  Another coach comes over and tells her that she can't do that.  I tell her she can.  He says she has to play the ball with the club she intends to use.  She is now in a panic and so, I tell her to do what he is suggesting and use her wedge to throw the ball on.  My question here is, how does this coach or any coach know what club my player is going to play?  Where this was, straight up hill and the cart path were it was, my player, who is skilled in bump in runs, could use her driver to punch he ball up.  The green is elevated and the line is straight up hill to the pin. 

Suppose she went ahead and used her driver for the measurement, addressed the ball and decided not to use that club.  IMO, the rule does not say she has to use the club she measured but only states she must use the club she intended to use.  IMO, after addressing the ball and making a decision to change clubs, she can change to a lofted club. 

 

WHERE AM I WRONG HERE? 

[iacas]

You can use whatever club you want to measure for a drop. The determination for the nearest point of relief uses the club she would use with some leeway and practicality thrown in.

As a coach, it would behoove you to learn and know the rules so that you can immediately point to the correct answer in such a situation. 

[CoachB25]

iacas, I do know the rules.  I thought that I demonstrated that with the explanation.  I wanted thoughts on what transpired.  I've played for 30+ years and have been a rules committee for several tournaments.  My question was how a coach knows what club you're going to use and this interpretation was given by a coach who was a rules official.  I disagreed with what was said and so, sought to argue.  The problem was, my player was one stroke out of contention to advance to state.  If an open argument happened in front of her, she might have fallen apart.  So, after the shot, I asked this coach how he would know what club any player would use and so, any club could be used. 

 

iacas, perhaps I made this point poorly. 

Edited October 14, 2015 by CoachB25

[CoachB25]

Edited to add to my previous post:

In our events, coaches can not make rulings on their players without another coach present.  Rules Committee are formed and coaches can make suggestions to other players.  In this case, the rules official asked me a questions, I could give my opinion and so, I did by telling my player she could use her driver.  It was made clear from the start of the sectional that if a coach not on the rules committee gave a ruling and it was wrong, the player would suffer the consequences.  So, I had to defer.  I guess I left that out. 

[iacas]

My question was how a coach knows what club you're going to use and this interpretation was given by a coach who was a rules official.  I disagreed with what was said and so, sought to argue.  The problem was, my player was one stroke out of contention to advance to state.  If an open argument happened in front of her, she might have fallen apart.  So, after the shot, I asked this coach how he would know what club any player would use and so, any club could be used.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-24,d24-2b-1

RELIEF FROM IMMOVABLE OBSTRUCTIONS

24-2b/1

Determining "Nearest Point of Relief"

Q.The Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that the player should determine this point by using "the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke." May the player use any club, address position, direction of play or swing in determining the nearest point of relief?

A.No. In determining the nearest point of relief accurately it is recommended that the player use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used had the obstruction or condition not been there. For example, the player has interference from an immovable obstruction and, were it not for the obstruction, he would have used a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron to play the ball from its original position towards the green. To determine the nearest point of relief accurately, he should use a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron and the direction of play should be towards the green. See also Decisions 20-2c/0.7 and 20-2c/0.8.

So, after the shot, I asked this coach how he would know what club any player would use and so, any club could be used. 

Any club cannot be used. It's impractical/unreasonable to expect that a player would hit a driver, for example, from 20 yards off of the green.

In our events, coaches can not make rulings on their players without another coach present.  Rules Committee are formed and coaches can make suggestions to other players.  In this case, the rules official asked me a questions, I could give my opinion and so, I did by telling my player she could use her driver.  It was made clear from the start of the sectional that if a coach not on the rules committee gave a ruling and it was wrong, the player would suffer the consequences.  So, I had to defer.  I guess I left that out. 

I disagree that it was reasonable to use a driver in such a situation, and would have denied you just as it appears.

Your language, btw, is a bit unclear. I assume by "measurement" you don't mean the one-club measurement, but the determination of NPR. Is that correct?

As I previously said, when measuring the one club, you're free to use any club, including the driver, a long putter if the player has one, etc. But in determining NPR, the player has to use the club they'd have likely used. In this type of situation that club is not a driver, and a rules official is well within his means to rule as such, short of evidence that the player routinely uses driver when faced with a similar shot that does not involve an Immovable Obstruction.

[Golfingdad]

You can use whatever club you want to measure for a drop. The determination for the nearest point of relief uses the club she would use with some leeway and practicality thrown in.

I believe the bolded to be the key portion here.  SOME leeway and PRACTICALITY thrown in.  A bump and run up the hill from 20 yards away from a green with a driver doesn't seem very practical to me.  A 3 wood or hybrid, assuming we're talking about entirely closely mown areas, I would buy.

However, I would only buy it if she actually used that club.  If she measured her NPR with the driver or 3 wood, and then hit a wedge ... as her FC or opponent I would be extremely unhappy, especially if that extra 8-10" gave her relief from tree branches or something.

I don't believe that it would be unreasonable to narrow down to within a club or two what shot you intend to play BEFORE you find your NPR and take your drop.

EDIT:  I see that Erik gave you a much better answer above. :)

Edited October 14, 2015 by Golfingdad

[CoachB25]

Hey, thanks for the responses.  Believe it or not, my player has hit that distance of a shot before with a driver.  She is a big strong girl.  The difference here, naturally, is the cart path in between.  Would I have done it?  NOPE.  She is very creative in her approach and used her driver as a mallet putter.  I agree that a 3 wood would be a better choice and might consider that myself.  The fairway was absolutely perfect and mowed short enough that one might even consider putting had that cart path not been there.  The ruling didn't matter because she made par anyway and so, she advanced to the state tournament.  However, even when you suggest she should use a wedge, how do you know?   For example, this young lady is bump and run almost everywhere around the green.  It is something that she is comfortable with because she tends to over swing her wedges.  So, if she took out a 7 iron for instance, what if the Rules Committee Coach decided that was not the right club and that she was gaining an advantage.  How does anyone know what clubs a young lady will use?  All of my girls have never golfed before I get them.  So, they don't have the typical shots.  I do my best to teach them all of their options.  That doesn't mean that they can do it.  Again, my problem is anytime an opposing Coach or anyone else thinks that they know what club is appropriate for a player that the have never met before or seen play.  I know the casebook ruling but don't agree with it. 

iacas, by "measurement" I was referencing both stance and club length.  The 90 degree in the cart path did add some difficulty to NPR.  iacas, I know that you coach as well as being a Pro.  I would think that you understand the vastly different abilities of these young ladies and so, hopefully, see the plausibility of my post.

I don't intend to wear out my welcome by beating a dead horse.  I appreciate the feed back.  Thank!

Take care,

Darrell

[Golfingdad]

Hey, thanks for the responses.  Believe it or not, my player has hit that distance of a shot before with a driver.  She is a big strong girl.  The difference here, naturally, is the cart path in between.  Would I have done it?  NOPE.  She is very creative in her approach and used her driver as a mallet putter.  I agree that a 3 wood would be a better choice and might consider that myself.  The fairway was absolutely perfect and mowed short enough that one might even consider putting had that cart path not been there.  The ruling didn't matter because she made par anyway and so, she advanced to the state tournament.  However, even when you suggest she should use a wedge, how do you know?   For example, this young lady is bump and run almost everywhere around the green.  It is something that she is comfortable with because she tends to over swing her wedges.  So, if she took out a 7 iron for instance, what if the Rules Committee Coach decided that was not the right club and that she was gaining an advantage.  How does anyone know what clubs a young lady will use?  All of my girls have never golfed before I get them.  So, they don't have the typical shots.  I do my best to teach them all of their options.  That doesn't mean that they can do it.  Again, my problem is anytime an opposing Coach or anyone else thinks that they know what club is appropriate for a player that the have never met before or seen play.  I know the casebook ruling but don't agree with it. 

iacas, by "measurement" I was referencing both stance and club length.  The 90 degree in the cart path did add some difficulty to NPR.  iacas, I know that you coach as well as being a Pro.  I would think that you understand the vastly different abilities of these young ladies and so, hopefully, see the plausibility of my post.

I don't intend to wear out my welcome by beating a dead horse.  I appreciate the feed back.  Thank!

Take care,

Darrell

What club did she use to hit the shot?

If it was a driver or 3 wood then the driver for finding NPR is warranted but if it was the 7 iron or a wedge of some kind then the driver would not be warranted. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Golfingdad
Changed "you" to "she"

[CoachB25]

What club did she use to hit the shot?

If it was a driver or 3 wood then the driver for finding NPR is warranted but if it was the 7 iron or a wedge of some kind then the driver would not be warranted. 

She used an 8 iron.  She landed it about 8 feet short of the green and it bounced and ran on.  I think that most good golfers would have used a sand wedge and popped it up in the air.  However, long beyond the pin would have been a disaster as this would have been a touchy downhill putt if she went long.  Again, she likes to bump and run. 

[rogolf]

She used an 8 iron.  She landed it about 8 feet short of the green and it bounced and ran on.  I think that most good golfers would have used a sand wedge and popped it up in the air.  However, long beyond the pin would have been a disaster as this would have been a touchy downhill putt if she went long.  Again, she likes to bump and run. 

If the cart path had not been there, what club would she have used for her stroke? 

If the club she would have used without the cart path being there was an 8 iron, that is the club she should use to determine the nearest point of relief.  She can then use any club she has selected to play to measure the one club length from that nearest point of relief and drop within that one club length, but no nearer the hole.

In actual fact, determining the nearest point of relief is not "measuring" under the Rules; measuring begins after the nearest point of relief has been determined.

[ColinL]

Rogolf has saved me a bit of writing, but I will add a couple of points.

 There is no requirement physically to determine the NPR or actually measure one club length from it.  It is unquestionably good practice to do so, but you may legitimately just estimate where to to drop.  Provided the ball hits the course in the right place and does not come to rest anywhere requiring a re-drop, the drop is good.  The rules require a certain outcome but do not proscribe a method of achieving it.

To verify that a drop is good, however,  the NPR has to be determined using the club the player would have used for the ensung shot had the obstruction/condition not been there because that is what the NPR is by definition.  The clublength  then has to be  measured using any club.  

Regarding what club a player would choose for a particular stroke,  I would be very wary of making any assumptions  that a particular club cannot be used but if concerned that a player was seeking some kind of unreasonable advantage would ask for a justification of the club choice including, if necessary, a demo of the stroke that would have been played.  By and large, the player’s word that he would have played a particular stroke should be accepted, in my view (and practice).  In my case, no matter how much better my knowledge of the Rules may be than the player’s, my playing ability and knowledge are highly unlikely to be.  A coach may feel differently about his competence to judge a player’s capabilities, but I do wonder in the case illustrated here if there is a bit of confusion between the role of a coach and the role of a referee.

[boogielicious]

This has been a good thread. Thanks all for your contributions.

[Club Rat]

 Here is the rub.  She has taken out her wood (driver) to take the measurement.  Another coach comes over and tells her that she can't do that.  I tell her she can.  He says she has to play the ball with the club she intends to use. 

My question here is, how does this coach or any coach know what club my player is going to play?

I think you made the right call to not cause an argument in front of your gal and possibly get her distracted from the task she needed to preform.

But, I also see the thoughts which the other coach was presenting by questioning the club selection to be used in determining NPR.

Not that he was right or wrong, I think both of you were misunderstanding each other of the process, he questioned most likely club to be used and you arguing why she could not.

If, she had pulled two clubs out of the bag, one for intended play and the driver for measurement, the other coach most likely would not have disputed the process.

Club Rat

[Fourputt]

Additional comment - not sure if this point has been made or not.  I just want to stress that the intended stroke should be reasonable, not just "possible".  As a referee, I would seriously question the use of a driver, or even a 3 wood in this case.  Ultimately unless she stretched each measurement to the absolute limits, it isn't going to make any difference, as she will likely wind up within the range for a more reasonable club anyway.  

 

It really doesn't make much sense to create a dispute over what is only going to be a few inches anyway.  That's all the difference there would be between taking her stance with a driver or a mid iron (6 or 7 iron, which is about the longest reasonable club for 99% of such shots).

 

[Martyn W]

As an official, I will always ask the player 'what shot would you play if the path were not there? 

The club selection is based on that and not (as many people think) where you will be taking the next stroke from.

For example: if the ball is on a cartpath with a tree between the ball and the green, the club selection/direction of play/stance might be a chip sideways with a 7 iron. After the drop it may be that there is a clear shot to the green and the player wants to hit 3 wood. The player can then hit the 3 wood.

[turtleback]

I am a little confused here.  My understanding is that in determining NPR you have to use the club you would have used in the absence of the obstruction to find your NPR.  But that in determining the club-length FROM the NPR you can use any club in your bag.  Is that not correct?  Because it was not clear from the OP just exactly what the other coach was objecting to, and everyone seems to have assumed it was the first part.  

[Fourputt]

I am a little confused here.  My understanding is that in determining NPR you have to use the club you would have used in the absence of the obstruction to find your NPR.  But that in determining the club-length FROM the NPR you can use any club in your bag.  Is that not correct?  Because it was not clear from the OP just exactly what the other coach was objecting to, and everyone seems to have assumed it was the first part.  

You are correct in your understanding.  I was confused by the OP too.  I think that whatever he was saying, the correct procedure has been covered, so his question should have been answered, whatever the question was.

[ColinL]

A couple of notes on what is being said.

1.   In determining NPR, you do not have to use the club you would have made the stroke with had there been no obstruction. There is good practice and there is what the rules do and don’t require and the use of the club you would have chosen for your stroke is only a recommendation.     You could use any club, your umbrella or nothing at all.   You may not have determined the NPR accurately, but provided the ball strikes the course within a club length of the actual NPR, not nearer the hole  and ends up not having to be re-dropped, all is good with your drop.   

The coach in the opening post was wrong to take issue with how the player was determining her NPR.  The point at which he could take issue is after the ball has been dropped if he thought it might be in a wrong place. Alternatively, he might reasonably suggest that  the player  determine her NPR in accordance with the recommendation in the Definition but he cannot insist.

In order to verify that a drop was correct, you would have to determine the actual NPR. That is when the stroke you would have made  has to be used to establish the nearest point where that stroke is free from interference because that is the definition of where the NPR is.  The stroke includes the choice of club.

2. Any consideration of whether the intended stroke  was "clearly unreasonable” should have taken place before the player even starts determining the NPR because it is to do with whether the player is entitled to relief in the first place. If the entitlement of relief is established on the basis of a certain  putative stroke, then the club selected for that is the club which would determine the NPR.  There is a big difference, by the way, between saying a stroke has to be  reasonable (which the rule does not say) and that it must not be clearly unreasonable (which is what the rule does say).

Edited October 16, 2015 by ColinL