driver out of bounds in woods question

[Baog]

Not true - the provisional becomes the ball in play when a stroke has been made at or closer to the hole than the spot where the original was likely to be. You cannot deem a ball to be in play, it is either in play or not by definition.

 

You're right. I wasn't thinking about the possibility that the provisional didn't go as far as the first shot so the search hadn't started yet.

Also, "deem it to be the ball in play" was an inelegant way to say "abandon the search for your first ball." I suppose that even if you quit looking, someone else could find your ball before you've hit the provisional again and you'd be stuck with it.

[Abu3baid]

Then the original is found and the provisional is abandoned, unless the provisional has been played from a point at or nearer to the hole from where the original was expected to be. 

 

Excellent.. That was my point of contention.. What was being said is that someone can basically hit a ball in the woods, say I'm hitting a provisional and then find that his provision is in a good spot and decide that hey I'm not even going to look for my first and abandon it.. 

I suppose he doesn't have the obligation to go look for it, but if someone else finds it then he either has to play it, or go back to the tee and hit 3 again because the provision at this point doesn't count.. Am I correct?

[Lihu]

If you find the original and want to declare it unplayable to hit another from the tee, you can't use your provisional, you have to go back an hit another.

Ah yes, I agree. I hate losing strokes like this though. . .

[sjduffers]

What if I find it for you inside the 5 minutes of search time..?

All I have to do is hit the provisional further than the area you are looking in before you find it and then if won't matter if you find it and I won't have to use the original ball if you do find it.  Also, if after I express my intention to abandon the search, you are still looking for the ball (which is your right), my opinion of you as a gentleman might fall off a few notches... just sayin'.

[Rulesman]

you are

Excellent.. That was my point of contention.. What was being said is that someone can basically hit a ball in the woods, say I'm hitting a provisional and then find that his provision is in a good spot and decide that hey I'm not even going to look for my first and abandon it.. 

I suppose he doesn't have the obligation to go look for it, but if someone else finds it then he either has to play it, or go back to the tee and hit 3 again because the provision at this point doesn't count.. Am I correct?

You are.

[Lihu]

No, you don't in order to hit a provisional. You can always declare an unplayable ball, even if you don't look for it.

I merged these two thoughts together into one paragraph. Sorry. They're two different statements.

Excellent.. That was my point of contention.. What was being said is that someone can basically hit a ball in the woods, say I'm hitting a provisional and then find that his provision is in a good spot and decide that hey I'm not even going to look for my first and abandon it.. 

I suppose he doesn't have the obligation to go look for it, but if someone else finds it then he either has to play it, or go back to the tee and hit 3 again because the provision at this point doesn't count.. Am I correct?

Yes, and I now see why you thought that I thought this. . .oops.

[rogolf]

All I have to do is hit the provisional further than the area you are looking in before you find it and then if won't matter if you find it and I won't have to use the original ball if you do find it.  Also, if after I express my intention to abandon the search, you are still looking for the ball (which is your right), my opinion of you as a gentleman might fall off a few notches... just sayin'.

Doesn't sound quite right.  Hitting the ball to a point beyond where the original ball might be means nothing.  Hitting the provisional from a point where the original is likely to be or nearer the hole than that point means the original is lost by definition.

[Abu3baid]

All I have to do is hit the provisional further than the area you are looking in before you find it and then if won't matter if you find it and I won't have to use the original ball if you do find it.  Also, if after I express my intention to abandon the search, you are still looking for the ball (which is your right), my opinion of you as a gentleman might fall off a few notches... just sayin'.

The situation we are talking about is one where you don't even attempt a search at all, and beside I was talking strictly from a rules perspective and not a practical one.  Don't worry, I won't be looking for your ball in no damn woods LOL.  ;)

[Missouri Swede]

 If the provisional is decent, you can immediately declare your first drive lost and play the provisional.

But you have to look for your first ball before you can declare it lost.

You don't "declare" a ball lost. From the R&A: 

Can a player verbally declare his ball to be lost?

A player cannot render a ball lost by declaration; it is what the player does and what happens that matters, rather than what the player says.  A ball can only be considered lost when:

(a) it is not found or identified by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or 

(b) the player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be, or from a point nearer the hole than that place; or 

(c) the player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance; or 

(d) the player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency, is in an obstruction, is in an abnormal ground condition or is in a water hazard; or

(e) the player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

[DrvFrShow]

@Missouri Swede If condition (a) is met, the ball is for all practical purposes declared lost. Being "considered lost" is semantics under that condition.

Of course when you're playing by yourself, you are "the player's side", "the caddies", and "the committee."

 

[iacas]

If condition (a) is met, the ball is for all practical purposes declared lost. Being "considered lost" is semantics under that condition.

They're important semantics, though, Julia. You can "declare" certain things in golf, but a ball being lost is not one of them.

(Please try to use the @mentions thing as well, @DrvFrShow. )

[Fourputt]

@Missouri Swede If condition (a) is met, the ball is for all practical purposes declared lost. Being "considered lost" is semantics under that condition.

Of course when you're playing by yourself, you are "the player's side", "the caddies", and "the committee."

 

Semantically speaking, the ball is never "declared" lost.  If it meets the definition as stated in the Rules, then it is simply "lost".  It may be "deemed lost" if the player, without completing a search, puts another ball into play in such a way as the original ball is considered lost under the rules.  The player doesn't deem the ball lost - only by proceeding under a rule can he cause such a result.

 

[turtleback]

But you have to look for your first ball before you can declare it lost. If you find it deep in the woods, you have to play it. See what I do in the case of the reload is hit the subsequent tee shot with a 4 iron just to make sure it's in the fairway. Yeah, I'm taking a double bogey on the hole, but in a tournament it's better than a potential 12.

 

Besides the fact that you cannot "declare" a ball lost, which has already been addressed, there is absolutely no requirement at all that you must look for your ball.  HOWEVER, your opponent is entitled to look for your ball - and if he finds it before the provisional becomes the ball in play you are required to identify it and then it becomes the ball in pay and the provisional is abandoned...  

The rest does not address you specifically but a larger issue on which there is consensus I disagree with:

Contrary to a lot of folks here I DO NOT think it makes him a tool for looking for the original ball when the player wants to abandon it for his provisional.  If you do not want him looking for it, then nut up and do not declare the re-hit a provisional in the first place.  Then you have nothing to worry about.  But if YOU  play games by declaring a provisional after hitting a tee shot so poorly that you do not want it searched for, then I have no problem with the opponent playing games right back and finding your disaster ball and making you play it.  You DID hit it there, after all.  And by not saying a single word you could have prevented him from searching (or at least having the search mean anything).  Just do not declare the re-hit a provisional.  But if you declare it a provisional you leave it open to a possible search by your opponent, and that is YOUR choice.  Complaining about him doing something you could have completely prevented had you not attempted to gain some kind of advantage by declaring your re-hit a provisional?  Not justified, IMO. 

 

[sjduffers]

But if YOU  play games by declaring a provisional after hitting a tee shot so poorly that you do not want it searched for, then I have no problem with the opponent playing games right back and finding your disaster ball and making you play it.  You DID hit it there, after all.  

It is not always obvious from the tee how bad a lie the ball is going to be in, at least on courses where one does not know every square foot very well... There is nothing wrong in hoping for a good break, hitting a provisional and then realizing when you get there that it's a hopeless situation and that you'd better not even search for the ball. While it is the opponent's or FC's prerogative to start the search and obligate me to play the found ball, I still will take ombrage to it after I make it clear that I am not searching for the original ball. I'll play the ball (or more likely take an unplayable, even making the trek back to the tee if I have to), but I'll still think that the person was less than gentlemanly in the circumstance. 

Doesn't sound quite right.  Hitting the ball to a point beyond where the original ball might be means nothing.  Hitting the provisional from a point where the original is likely to be or nearer the hole than that point means the original is lost by definition.

My bad.  Of course you are right (goes without saying).

I might be running to where I hit the provisional and hit it one more time before the guy founds the presumably lost ball and makes me play it.  It's one of the very few times you might see me running by the way! 

[Martyn W]

 

I might be running to where I hit the provisional and hit it one more time before the guy founds the presumably lost ball and makes me play it.  It's one of the very few times you might see me running by the way! 

Interesting you say that - there is a Decision known as the 'foot race' Decision; if you can get to your provisional before your FC/ opponent finds the original, you win!

 

27-2b/2

 

When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play

Q.At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?

A.In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.

 

[DrvFrShow]

IOW if A makes a HIO with the provisional (or rather a hole in three), A hops in the cart, puts the pedal to the metal and makes a bee line to the green to pull the ball out of the hole before competitor finds the original ball.

[turtleback]

It is not always obvious from the tee how bad a lie the ball is going to be in, at least on courses where one does not know every square foot very well... There is nothing wrong in hoping for a good break, hitting a provisional and then realizing when you get there that it's a hopeless situation and that you'd better not even search for the ball. While it is the opponent's or FC's prerogative to start the search and obligate me to play the found ball, I still will take ombrage to it after I make it clear that I am not searching for the original ball. I'll play the ball (or more likely take an unplayable, even making the trek back to the tee if I have to), but I'll still think that the person was less than gentlemanly in the circumstance. 

Then declare your unplayable and go re-hit.   You cannot tell me that when you decide not to look, in part you aren't essentially deciding between hitting your provisional lying 3 or, potentially, hitting your original lying 1.  AND that the decision is made with the full knowledge of where the provisional ended up.

To me if anything is ungentlemanly it is using looking for or not looking for your ball as implicitly making a decision between 2 balls, something that the rules do not explicitly allow.  Would you be so quick to abandon the original ball if you had a crappy provisional?  Maybe not.  The position of the provisional is definitely going to affect your decision.  You might decide to look REAL HARD for the original, for example, if you dribbled your provisional off the tee and then hit it 3 more times before getting to the area where your original is likely to have been.  As compared to how hard you will look if you blast one right down the middle.

The point is that the rules sometimes give you latitude.  It also sometimes gives your opponent latitude.  None of the above is specified by the rues.  The rules allow you to look for or not look for your ball.  The rules allow your opponent to look for or not look for your ball.  

Why is it OK for you to use THAT latitude the rules give you but it is not OK for the opponent to use the latitude the rules allow him when he searches for your ball?

Why is it gentlemanly to use the rules for YOUR advantage but not gentlemanly when your opponent uses them for HIS advantage?

Edited October 23, 2015 by turtleback
spelling and clarification

[sjduffers]

@turtleback, we are going to have to agree to disagree. As I said, it is not always possible from the tee to determine what the outcome is going to be, that's why we hit a provisional.

What's not gentlemanly in the situation I am describing (choosing to abandon the original and proceeding to hit the provisional in a decent shape but lying 3 already) is known as kicking a person when they are down: it's not likely that I'll make par or even bogey from there, a double is probably the best outcome that I can hope for, and despite telling you my intent, you want to me to try and get an even higher score. Great, for you, but not for the spirit of the game. That's all. Now, if you make me, I will hit the unplayable from the tee (and lose the time to get back there too) and I may end up with the same result or worse, but it surely is my right to view you as less than gentlemanly for it.