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Leaf in a bunker


CoachB25
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This happened to my player this weekend but thought I'd throw it out there.  I agreed with the Rules Official ruling on it but will save that.  There is a heavy wind blowing.  My player is in a sand bunker by the green.  She steps in and while doing so, lifts a leaf out of the bunker allowing the wind to blow it away.  This leaf is not within 10 feet of her ball.  Ruling? 

Darrell Butler

Coach (me) to player, "Hey, what percentage of putts left short never go in?"  Player, "Coach, 100% of putts left short never go in."  Coach (me), "Exactly."  Player, "Coach what percentage of putts that go long never go in."  LOL!

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This happened to my player this weekend but thought I'd throw it out there.  I agreed with the Rules Official ruling on it but will save that.  There is a heavy wind blowing.  My player is in a sand bunker by the green.  She steps in and while doing so, lifts a leaf out of the bunker allowing the wind to blow it away.  This leaf is not within 10 feet of her ball.  Ruling? 

Assuming you mean she lifted the leaf by hand rather than accidentally kicked it, the ruling is very straightforward:

13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or awater hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

a.

Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

b.

Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or

c.

Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard

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Yes, two strokes.  My player threw the leaf out on her way to the ball.  Played her ball.  Then, walked up to me and said, "Coach, I think I messed up."  LOL  Well, yes you did.  Then, she asked the penalty which I was not allowed to comment on per instructions prior to the tournament.  We were told, 'No coach is to make a ruling or clarify a rule."  So, I asked her to tell her competitors what she did, that there is a penalty involved and that they need the Rules Committee to comment if she does not know the penalty.  She then, said, "Coach it is a two stroke penalty."  I nodded but told her to still have the rules official beware of it as I can't make a ruling.  Also, I instructed her to make sure she did not sign her scorecard until she has reviewed this with a member of the rules committee.  This was the second to last hole and so, no rules committee official was in the area so she was instructed to finish and then to to the Rules Official at the Scoring Tent. 

I was proud of her that she did know the rule.  She simply was trying to keep the bunker clean of leaves.  Afterwards, I asked her what was the difference if she removed the leaf after she played the ball. 

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Darrell Butler

Coach (me) to player, "Hey, what percentage of putts left short never go in?"  Player, "Coach, 100% of putts left short never go in."  Coach (me), "Exactly."  Player, "Coach what percentage of putts that go long never go in."  LOL!

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Yes, two strokes.  My player threw the leaf out on her way to the ball.  Played her ball.  Then, walked up to me and said, "Coach, I think I messed up."  LOL  Well, yes you did.  Then, she asked the penalty which I was not allowed to comment on per instructions prior to the tournament.  We were told, 'No coach is to make a ruling or clarify a rule."  So, I asked her to tell her competitors what she did, that there is a penalty involved and that they need the Rules Committee to comment if she does not know the penalty.  She then, said, "Coach it is a two stroke penalty."  I nodded but told her to still have the rules official beware of it as I can't make a ruling.  Also, I instructed her to make sure she did not sign her scorecard until she has reviewed this with a member of the rules committee.  This was the second to last hole and so, no rules committee official was in the area so she was instructed to finish and then to to the Rules Official at the Scoring Tent. 

I was proud of her that she did know the rule.  She simply was trying to keep the bunker clean of leaves.  Afterwards, I asked her what was the difference if she removed the leaf after she played the ball. 

Sounds like your player was well-coached.  Good job!

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Sounds to me like a stupid restriction to not allow the coach to even acknowledge or tell a player what the penalty is when a rule has been breached.  I can understand them not allowing the coach to take the initiative in a way that the discussion could affect the player's subsequent decision in how to play the hole, but when the breach has already been committed, the player has taken the lead in informing her coach, and all that is being discussed is how many strokes to add to the score, that's just too much.

Even between competitors, information in the rules is an allowable avenue of discussion.  

 

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Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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My immediate thought too.  Not allowing coaches to make rulings is obvious, but not allowing  a coach to say what the rules say is just plain daft to me.  Would the coach be allowed to open the Rules of Golf and point wordlessly  to Rule 13-4?

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I was going to respond to say the same thing, but @Fourputt and @ColinL addressed it.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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I don't pretend to understand the reasons for everything.  We were explicitly told do not make a ruling.  We were also told that should any coach give a ruling on anything and that ruling was wrong, the player would suffer the consequences.  Having said that, there were coaches giving rulings all over the place and as many coaches running to turn them in.  On one hole, a dogleg right with 3 drop areas behind the green due to local rules and with a curved lateral hazard, one coach had his player take a measurement from an area and not from any of the drop zones.  One coach on her way to a person with a radio stopped and asked the coaches I was standing with what the rule was for Hole #5 and a player over the green in the hazard.  We all told her as it was written on the coaches handout we were to give to players.  That coach was bound and determined to get that player in trouble.  I don't know what happened as I had my own fires to put out with my player doing poorly and being heartbroken. 

As an FYI, few players have any rules reference in their bags.  Few coaches do as well.  Fewer have actual rules books.  At some point, I might post the simple rules reference guide I hand out to my players.  It isn't fancy but is helpful. 

Darrell Butler

Coach (me) to player, "Hey, what percentage of putts left short never go in?"  Player, "Coach, 100% of putts left short never go in."  Coach (me), "Exactly."  Player, "Coach what percentage of putts that go long never go in."  LOL!

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I don't pretend to understand the reasons for everything.  We were explicitly told do not make a ruling.  We were also told that should any coach give a ruling on anything and that ruling was wrong, the player would suffer the consequences.  Having said that, there were coaches giving rulings all over the place and as many coaches running to turn them in.  On one hole, a dogleg right with 3 drop areas behind the green due to local rules and with a curved lateral hazard, one coach had his player take a measurement from an area and not from any of the drop zones.  One coach on her way to a person with a radio stopped and asked the coaches I was standing with what the rule was for Hole #5 and a player over the green in the hazard.  We all told her as it was written on the coaches handout we were to give to players.  That coach was bound and determined to get that player in trouble.  I don't know what happened as I had my own fires to put out with my player doing poorly and being heartbroken. 

As an FYI, few players have any rules reference in their bags.  Few coaches do as well.  Fewer have actual rules books.  At some point, I might post the simple rules reference guide I hand out to my players.  It isn't fancy but is helpful. 

Let the players play their round without interference/interaction from the coaches.  Coaches need to do their coaching before the stipulated round and then get out of the player's way.  Creating the need for on course support (in the player's mind) is not developing the player's capability.

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Let the players play their round without interference/interaction from the coaches.  Coaches need to do their coaching before the stipulated round and then get out of the player's way.  Creating the need for on course support (in the player's mind) is not developing the player's capability.

That's bogus. I advise my players on wind, strategy (including penalty options), etc. Things a caddie can do. Some they can't (like the status of others). There's nothing wrong with that.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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I can't speak for all coaches.  What I prefer to do is be a resource.  Many times, I will ask a player, "what are your options."  As iacas says, wind and strategy sometimes come into play.  For example, there are times when I have to tell my best player to go last.  She jumps up first about 99% of the time and so, never sees what the conditions do on specific holes.  One example is the course we play our conference tournament on.  One of the Par 3s has a green that is hard to hold and a player is better off landing short and running the ball up below the hole.  If you are over, coming back you will not stop the ball on that green.  Better to be short.  So, I make her go last on that hole to see how the other #1s play the hole each year.  We try to let the girls monitor each other and so, my girls have rule sheets to use in order for them to reference on the course.  Most of the time, whatever situation they encounter can be handled by that sheet.  If I have to, I get involved but that is rare.  I do let them play on their own as much as possible but I am a coach and so, I earn my keep.  When I first started years ago, coaches set the pairings and then went and golfed the course as the players played.  Those days are long gone. 

Darrell Butler

Coach (me) to player, "Hey, what percentage of putts left short never go in?"  Player, "Coach, 100% of putts left short never go in."  Coach (me), "Exactly."  Player, "Coach what percentage of putts that go long never go in."  LOL!

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I don't pretend to understand the reasons for everything.  We were explicitly told do not make a ruling.  We were also told that should any coach give a ruling on anything and that ruling was wrong, the player would suffer the consequences.  Having said that, there were coaches giving rulings all over the place and as many coaches running to turn them in.  On one hole, a dogleg right with 3 drop areas behind the green due to local rules and with a curved lateral hazard, one coach had his player take a measurement from an area and not from any of the drop zones.  One coach on her way to a person with a radio stopped and asked the coaches I was standing with what the rule was for Hole #5 and a player over the green in the hazard.  We all told her as it was written on the coaches handout we were to give to players.  That coach was bound and determined to get that player in trouble.  I don't know what happened as I had my own fires to put out with my player doing poorly and being heartbroken. 

As an FYI, few players have any rules reference in their bags.  Few coaches do as well.  Fewer have actual rules books.  At some point, I might post the simple rules reference guide I hand out to my players.  It isn't fancy but is helpful. 

As a coach I'd say that it's part of your responsibility to your players to see that they are conversant with the rules, at least with most of the basic procedures that players deal with during a normal round.  The Rules of Golf is a cheap publication available from the USGA store.  

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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As a coach I'd say that it's part of your responsibility to your players to see that they are conversant with the rules, at least with most of the basic procedures that players deal with during a normal round.  The Rules of Golf is a cheap publication available from the USGA store.  

I agree.  The IHSA has a website where many of the basic rules are in animation form and so, we take a rainy day each year to review them in the classroom.  Also, players get a basic quiz each year on the rules.  The majority of the time, my players help their groups more than receive help with the rules.  Still, they make mistakes like all others such as the situation I cited here.  Still, after she removed the leaf, she knew she messed up. 

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Darrell Butler

Coach (me) to player, "Hey, what percentage of putts left short never go in?"  Player, "Coach, 100% of putts left short never go in."  Coach (me), "Exactly."  Player, "Coach what percentage of putts that go long never go in."  LOL!

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That's bogus. I advise my players on wind, strategy (including penalty options), etc. Things a caddie can do. Some they can't (like the status of others). There's nothing wrong with that.

Well, I disagree, and it's not "bogus"..  A coach's job is to coach, but not interfering with players during the stipulated round.  If the coach needs to do that, he has not done a proper job before the rounds(s).  A coach's job is to prepare the players to play, not try to play for them.  If caddies are not allowed, why are coaches permitted to do all of the of the caddie's tasks except carrying clubs?

Edited by rogolf
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Not for the first time in taking part in forums around the place,  I find myself getting a window  into a wholly  unfamiliar but fascinating golfing world.  In this instance, I’m not sure it’s one I particularly like, being more inclined to believe that players, particularly young ones, are not helped by being pressurised during their play of any sport  by coaches, parents, aunties, uncles etc.  I’m more used here to tournaments including team matches  where the players, most of whom clearly know the rules well enough to do so,  get on with their game.  Generally, the most difficult part of refereeing is the threat of boredom!   At my last stroke play job of the season the sum total of involvement was helping one player with multiple drops from a plantation of staked trees, chasing up a slow group and finding a docken leaf for a wee boy who had been stung by nettles.  But I’m not at  all familiar with events involving coaches and so mine is a somewhat limited perspective.

[As a footnote, I don’t usually get bored because there is always golf to watch ,  usually golf of a very high and enviable quality. ]

 

Edited by ColinL
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