Leaf in a bunker

[iacas]

Well, I disagree, and it's not "bogus"..  A coach's job is to coach, but not interfering with players during the stipulated round.  If the coach needs to do that, he has not done a proper job before the rounds(s).  A coach's job is to prepare the players to play, not try to play for them.  If caddies are not allowed, why are coaches permitted to do all of the of the caddie's tasks except carrying clubs?

There are lots of things you cannot prepare for. The status of other players for example. Even the Captains in Ryder Cups visit players and advise despite them having caddies AND being pros.

It is bogus. You don't understand coaching if you think it is. It's not interfering nor is it "trying to play for them."

Back on topic back on topic, anyway. Though the topic was pretty easily answered, so… maybe this is.

[CoachB25]

LOL.  Some of you make it sound as if I am hovering around, behind, in front of, ...  NOPE.  In this case, you'd be accurate in that some coaches commented with their players on every shot like a caddie.  Most did not.  However, coaches have the ability per the rules of our state golf association to coach on the course.  Now, they can't make any remarks when any player of a group steps on the green, all coaching stops.  We can't align putts.  We can't mention anything at all and must stop dead sentence when that first foot hits the green. 

Isn't it ironic that some of you are considering teaching the game to someone, like my player(s), who have all golfed 2 1/2 years or less to be a negative.  I guess some of you are members of the country club where the little darling grew up on the course.  Mine have not seen the course until tryouts freshman year.  Some here are such sticklers for the rules and rightfully so.  Everything I do is within the rules. 

Thanks everyone for the discussion.

Edited October 19, 2015 by iacas
removed unnecessary returns

[Fourputt]

Not for the first time in taking part in forums around the place,  I find myself getting a window  into a wholly  unfamiliar but fascinating golfing world.  In this instance, I’m not sure it’s one I particularly like, being more inclined to believe that players, particularly young ones, are not helped by being pressurised during their play of any sport  by coaches, parents, aunties, uncles etc.  I’m more used here to tournaments including team matches  where the players, most of whom clearly know the rules well enough to do so,  get on with their game.  Generally, the most difficult part of refereeing is the threat of boredom!   At my last stroke play job of the season the sum total of involvement was helping one player with multiple drops from a plantation of staked trees, chasing up a slow group and finding a docken leaf for a wee boy who had been stung by nettles.  But I’m not at  all familiar with events involving coaches and so mine is a somewhat limited perspective.

[As a footnote, I don’t usually get bored because there is always golf to watch ,  usually golf of a very high and enviable quality. ]

 

At many of the junior tournaments I refereed in Colorado, the kids were followed by their parents, and 95% of our duties were to keep the parents from involving themselves in the play.  The kids got along just fine as long as Mom and Aunt Lucy were at least 50 yards away.  

One of the annual junior "tours" was 8-10 year old golfers, most of whom had only the vaguest idea of the rules of golf.  Referees were usually posted within view of any water hazards so that the kids could not only be assured of a correct drop, but of some proper education on water hazard procedures.  I really enjoyed working these little competitions (most often held on par 3 courses), trying to get these youngsters headed in the right direction early on.

[iacas]

At many of the junior tournaments I refereed in Colorado, the kids were followed by their parents, and 95% of our duties were to keep the parents from involving themselves in the play.  The kids got along just fine as long as Mom and Aunt Lucy were at least 50 yards away.  

In college tournaments, parents and spectators are technically not allowed to speak to contestants. They can speak if they're pointing out that they found a ball (or in otherwise helping to locate a golf ball), but are otherwise asked not to speak to the players.

One of the annual junior "tours" was 8-10 year old golfers, most of whom had only the vaguest idea of the rules of golf.  Referees were usually posted within view of any water hazards so that the kids could not only be assured of a correct drop, but of some proper education on water hazard procedures.  I really enjoyed working these little competitions (most often held on par 3 courses), trying to get these youngsters headed in the right direction early on.

That sounds fun!

If there's enough to discuss in this area (spectators, coaches, etc.) then I recommend someone start a new thread.

[ColinL]

LOL.  Some of you make it sound as if I am hovering around, behind, in front of, ...  NOPE.  In this case, you'd be accurate in that some coaches commented with their players on every shot like a caddie.  Most did not.  However, coaches have the ability per the rules of our state golf association to coach on the course.  Now, they can't make any remarks when any player of a group steps on the green, all coaching stops.  We can't align putts.  We can't mention anything at all and must stop dead sentence when that first foot hits the green. 

Isn't it ironic that some of you are considering teaching the game to someone, like my player(s), who have all golfed 2 1/2 years or less to be a negative.  I guess some of you are members of the country club where the little darling grew up on the course.  Mine have not seen the course until tryouts freshman year.  Some here are such sticklers for the rules and rightfully so.  Everything I do is within the rules. 

Thanks everyone for the discussion.

Perhaps it was your own description that made it sound like that rather than our doing. 

Having said that, there were coaches giving rulings all over the place and as many coaches running to turn them in.  On one hole, a dogleg right with 3 drop areas behind the green due to local rules and with a curved lateral hazard, one coach had his player take a measurement from an area and not from any of the drop zones.  One coach on her way to a person with a radio stopped and asked the coaches I was standing with what the rule was for Hole #5 and a player over the green in the hazard.  We all told her as it was written on the coaches handout we were to give to players.  That coach was bound and determined to get that player in trouble.  I don't know what happened as I had my own fires to put out with my player doing poorly and being heartbroken. 

[DrvFrShow]

A variant of this - rake in the bunker. Some one had left a rake in the bunker. Tournament today. Due to fall conditions on the course finding balls was very difficult. We finally found my ball. I duffed my pitch and it went into the bunker between the back lip and the rake. I couldn't make a stroke at it because some idiot had left the rake in the bunker instead of on the grass outside the bunker. I couldn't move the rake without "testing the sand" or taking a penalty. So I asked a competitor to remove the rake. They complied. Was this a violation of the rules?

[Martyn W]

A variant of this - rake in the bunker. Some one had left a rake in the bunker. Tournament today. Due to fall conditions on the course finding balls was very difficult. We finally found my ball. I duffed my pitch and it went into the bunker between the back lip and the rake. I couldn't make a stroke at it because some idiot had left the rake in the bunker instead of on the grass outside the bunker. I couldn't move the rake without "testing the sand" or taking a penalty. So I asked a competitor to remove the rake. They complied. Was this a violation of the rules?

A rake is a movable obstruction, not a loose impediment, Rule 24 applies. You can move the rake and there is no penalty if you incidentally touch the sand. If your ball moves, replace with no penalty, if the ball will not remain at rest, find the nearest place in the bunker not nearer the hole that it will (20-3).

[Fourputt]

A variant of this - rake in the bunker. Some one had left a rake in the bunker. Tournament today. Due to fall conditions on the course finding balls was very difficult. We finally found my ball. I duffed my pitch and it went into the bunker between the back lip and the rake. I couldn't make a stroke at it because some idiot had left the rake in the bunker instead of on the grass outside the bunker. I couldn't move the rake without "testing the sand" or taking a penalty. So I asked a competitor to remove the rake. They complied. Was this a violation of the rules?

It wasn't a violation, but as Martyn says, it wasn't necessary.  you could have moved the rake yourself, as long as any touching of the sand was incidental and could not be construed as testing the condition of the hazard.

[rogolf]

It wasn't a violation, but as Martyn says, it wasn't necessary.  you could have moved the rake yourself, as long as any touching of the sand was incidental and could not be construed as testing the condition of the hazard.

 

To clarify "testing the condition of the hazard", see Decision 13-4/0.5,

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;
• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;
• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;
• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or
• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

 

[turtleback]

A variant of this - rake in the bunker. Some one had left a rake in the bunker. Tournament today. Due to fall conditions on the course finding balls was very difficult. We finally found my ball. I duffed my pitch and it went into the bunker between the back lip and the rake. I couldn't make a stroke at it because some idiot had left the rake in the bunker instead of on the grass outside the bunker. I couldn't move the rake without "testing the sand" or taking a penalty. So I asked a competitor to remove the rake. They complied. Was this a violation of the rules?

You got some good answers, but I think there is a more general point here that was overlooked.  If YOU cannot do something, within the rules, you cannot get your playing companion to do it for you as a way of circumventing the rule.

Also, picking up a rake is not testing the sand just because it interferes with your ball.  We pick up rakes from bunkers all the time and it is never considered as testing the sand.  (oops, I see this was already addressed)

[Martyn W]

To clarify "testing the condition of the hazard", see Decision 13-4/0.5,

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;
• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;
• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;
• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or
• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

 

The Ruling Bodies have gotten much more lenient in recent years re. testing. Basically testing is now defined as doing anything which could give a player more information about the nature of the sand than could be gained by taking a stance. If in doubt, just say you were 'tidying up the course'  

[Fourputt]

To clarify "testing the condition of the hazard", see Decision 13-4/0.5,

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;
• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;
• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;
• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or
• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

 

Martyn - I stated it in that manner specifically because anything more than incidental contact could be construed as testing.  I could easily reach to lift the rake and poke my index finger into the sand to test the depth, and do so unobtrusively.  I was making the point that a person lifting or placing anything in a hazard should do so with care so as not to cause suspicion on the part of an observer.

[rogolf]

Martyn - I stated it in that manner specifically because anything more than incidental contact could be construed as testing.  I could easily reach to lift the rake and poke my index finger into the sand to test the depth, and do so unobtrusively.  I was making the point that a person lifting or placing anything in a hazard should do so with care so as not to cause suspicion on the part of an observer.

 

I'm concerned with playing within the Rules, but concerned much about an observer's suspicion.  Suppose that I pick up the rake using my club (bad back) and touch the sand with the clubhead while doing so?

[DrvFrShow]

Given the fact that it had rained for four days, it was quite obvious that the bunker sand would be like concrete. I'd played the course a number of times in that condition. No new information about the sand could possibly be given anyway. My guess now is that the grounds crew tossed it in there when they were mowing the apron. They sure weren't mowing the 6" tall rough. I think they would have lost the rake in it. lol.

The position of the rake was such I couldn't even make a stroke at the ball and my ball was in position such that a drop would have put it closer to the hole.

Well, I have to learn all these rules because next year I'm on the rules committee. I figured this would be a good excuse to learn the rules and decisions.... all 600 pages. I wanted to be a lawyer at one point in my life.

I'm concerned with playing within the Rules, but concerned much about an observer's suspicion.  Suppose that I pick up the rake using my club (bad back) and touch the sand with the clubhead while doing so?

 

I would probably use my foot to lift it a bit then snag it with my club head so Mr PGA rules guy, or Ms LPGA rules lady wouldn't get on my case about a two stroke penalty or loss of hole for testing the sand with the club head.

Edited October 21, 2015 by DrvFrShow

[Martyn W]

I'm concerned with playing within the Rules, but concerned much about an observer's suspicion.  Suppose that I pick up the rake using my club (bad back) and touch the sand with the clubhead while doing so?

If my back was so bad that I would fall without using my club as a cane, I'm okay.

"there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in awater hazard as a result of or to prevent falling,"

 

I would probably use my foot to lift it a bit then snag it with my club head so Mr PGA rules guy, or Ms LPGA rules lady wouldn't get on my case about a two stroke penalty or loss of hole for testing the sand with the club head.

The penalty would be for touching the sand, not testing.

[rogolf]

If my back was so bad that I would fall without using my club as a cane, I'm okay.

"there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in awater hazard as a result of or to prevent falling,"

The penalty would be for touching the sand, not testing.

And more of the Exception you quoted:

"There is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard ... in removing an obstruction.."

Hence, touching the sand with a club while using that club to remove an obstruction (the rakes) does not result in a breach of Rule 13-4 (provided that nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard).

[DrvFrShow]

The use of the foot just spares one of a dispute. That was my point.

[rogolf]

The use of the foot just spares one of a dispute. That was my point.

My bad back overrides a dispute when I know I'm correct.