Rolling the Ball under preferred lies

[HonestyPolicy]

Hi Gang,

When your club is operating under a local rule for preferred lies, do players actually mark, pick, clean, and place as the USGA recommends or do they roll the ball with their golf club into their preferred lie? When I first joined the club I am now still a member at, the norm there was to roll the ball within one club length in your own fairway although the only published awareness of that was a sign posted on the board saying "PREFERRED LIES" which is sometimes removed but not often. Reading the rule (link posted below) it only "recommends" a procedure but it stops short of requiring it.

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-07/

So if I am reading it correctly it says "the following Local Rule is recommended:" meaning that the local committee is allowed to define preferred lies in just about any way they want. So other than my obvious problem with the way my club seems to apply preferred lies (not really temporarily, and not defined enough in terms of the acceptable procedure) my question for you all is how does your club do it. Is it an acceptable method at your club to not mark your ball before lifting it? Does you club allow you to roll the ball with your golf club? What ever you can share I would love to hear about it. Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

[rogolf]

Hi Gang,

When your club is operating under a local rule for preferred lies, do players actually mark, pick, clean, and place as the USGA recommends or do they roll the ball with their golf club into their preferred lie? When I first joined the club I am now still a member at, the norm there was to roll the ball within one club length in your own fairway although the only published awareness of that was a sign posted on the board saying "PREFERRED LIES" which is sometimes removed but not often. Reading the rule (link posted below) it only "recommends" a procedure but it stops short of requiring it.

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-07/

So if I am reading it correctly it says "the following Local Rule is recommended:" meaning that the local committee is allowed to define preferred lies in just about any way they want. So other than my obvious problem with the way my club seems to apply preferred lies (not really temporarily, and not defined enough in terms of the acceptable procedure) my question for you all is how does your club do it. Is it an acceptable method at your club to not mark your ball before lifting it? Does you club allow you to roll the ball with your golf club? What ever you can share I would love to hear about it. Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

We use the recommended local Rule when we use preferred lies.  As noted in that local Rule, the procedure is very specific and does not permit rolling the ball.

If the recommended local Rule is not used, ie, another local Rule is used, the ruling bodies will not discuss/interpret said "non-conforming" local Rule.

[SavvySwede]

Hi Gang,

When your club is operating under a local rule for preferred lies, do players actually mark, pick, clean, and place as the USGA recommends or do they roll the ball with their golf club into their preferred lie? When I first joined the club I am now still a member at, the norm there was to roll the ball within one club length in your own fairway although the only published awareness of that was a sign posted on the board saying "PREFERRED LIES" which is sometimes removed but not often. Reading the rule (link posted below) it only "recommends" a procedure but it stops short of requiring it.

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-07/

So if I am reading it correctly it says "the following Local Rule is recommended:" meaning that the local committee is allowed to define preferred lies in just about any way they want. So other than my obvious problem with the way my club seems to apply preferred lies (not really temporarily, and not defined enough in terms of the acceptable procedure) my question for you all is how does your club do it. Is it an acceptable method at your club to not mark your ball before lifting it? Does you club allow you to roll the ball with your golf club? What ever you can share I would love to hear about it. Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

One club length? That seems pretty excessive, almost every instance I've seen they only allow you to move it the length of a scorecard. Back when I played high school golf the season started in the early spring so they played preferred lies because the courses hadn't really filled in, everyone just rolled the ball when need be.

[HonestyPolicy]

Yes I agree, excessive. One club length allows you to actually change the lie sometimes from an uphill or downhill to a level lie so it can be dramatic sometimes. Some actually roll it more than a club length and because they don't mark it first you don't even know where the starting point was which is another reason why I like the mark, pick, clean, place better. But rolling the ball seems to have become a popular method. Other comments?

[Lihu]

Okay, I've been thinking that many of my playing partners were cheating by moving the ball for any reason. The preferred method has been to kick the ball out of divots.

In an extreme case, one of them picked up the ball from hard pan behind some trees and plopped the ball in the middle of the fairway.

It seems to me that preferred lies is a way to cheat? I'd feel better about playing the ball from where ever it's sitting. Or take an unplayable.

[Rulesman]

The recommendation is only about the specific words used. The fundamental principles are mandatory.

1) It only applies on closely mown areas through the green

2) The ball must be marked before lifting

3) The ball may be cleaned

4) The ball must be placed, not dropped or rolled.

1 cl is almost always the norm in North America. In the UK it is always 6".

[DrvFrShow]

 

[Asheville]

Come winter, our club's temporary local rules include this:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Temporary Local Rule Providing for "Preferred Lies

     Until further notice, “preferred lies” are in effect, a ball lying on a closely mown area, (fairway height or less) and not in a hazard, on the hole being played, may be marked, lifted, cleaned and placed within one club-length not nearer the hole.

     If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club, he incurs a penalty of one stroke.

[DrvFrShow]

In our area, handicap reporting is off effective November 15, so it's who gives a damn? Play it where you can find a spot.

Come winter, our club's temporary local rules include this:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Temporary Local Rule Providing for "Preferred Lies

     Until further notice, “preferred lies” are in effect, a ball lying on a closely mown area, (fairway height or less) and not in a hazard, on the hole being played, may be marked, lifted, cleaned and placed within one club-length not nearer the hole.

     If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club, he incurs a penalty of one stroke.

But when people play by themselves or even within a group, they roll the ball with their clubs, just simply move the ball without marking it, and pretty much do what they want without assessing themselves the penalty. Such rules are difficult to enforce. It will only be enforceable during competitive events.

[Lihu]

 

"I should have yelled two!"

I feel bad about playing winter rules in So. Cal. partly because I consider "winter" my actual golf "season". Not only that, but there's rarely a really bad day or lie. . .

[Fourputt]

Played preferred lies twice that I can remember in tournaments where the conditions actually warranted it.  We always used the 6 inch rule, not a clublength.  It's supposed to be to give relief from a bad lie caused by the poor conditions in the fairway, and I've never been in such a situation where I needed to move the ball more than a couple of inches to accomplish that.  Even then I only touched the ball if I could see that it was actually necessary, not for every stroke like I always see the pros doing. 

Never played it in casual play, regardless of whether my companions were doing so or not.  I'd rather play those shots in casual rounds so that I know how to deal with them when it counts.  Besides, those are one of the things that makes golf fun for me.  No better feeling that playing a good shot from a bad lie.  I also prefer having a score that is what I actually earned with my play.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Fourputt

[CoachB25]

Our Local is you can "bump" with your club BUT no further than a scorecard.  Rarely used but then again, I don't golf much after this past week. 

[Asheville]

Played preferred lies twice that I can remember in tournaments where the conditions actually warranted it.  We always used the 6 inch rule, not a clublength.  It's supposed to be to give relief from a bad lie caused by the poor conditions in the fairway, and I've never been in such a situation where I needed to move the ball more than a couple of inches to accomplish that.  Even then I only touched the ball if I could see that it was actually necessary, not for every stroke like I always see the pros doing. 

Never played it in casual play, regardless of whether my companions were doing so or not.  I'd rather play those shots in casual rounds so that I know how to deal with them when it counts.  Besides, those are one of the things that makes golf fun for me.  No better feeling that playing a good shot from a bad lie.  I also prefer having a score that is what I actually earned with my play.

Our turf stays good enough to play from all winter, though when it's wet we get some mud balls. That's the reason for preferred lies here. 

In our area, handicap reporting is off effective November 15, so it's who gives a damn? Play it where you can find a spot.

 

But when people play by themselves or even within a group, they roll the ball with their clubs, just simply move the ball without marking it, and pretty much do what they want without assessing themselves the penalty. Such rules are difficult to enforce. It will only be enforceable during competitive events.

Our professional feels that it's important to publish good Local Rules. Some of our groups comply and some don't.

[6Aces]

One club length? That seems pretty excessive, almost every instance I've seen they only allow you to move it the length of a scorecard. Back when I played high school golf the season started in the early spring so they played preferred lies because the courses hadn't really filled in, everyone just rolled the ball when need be.

One club length is a specific distance, that is, up to 48", and because the ball is first marked, there is little opportunity for the golfer to inadvertently, or deliberately, place his ball farther from the original lie than this distance.

In rolling the ball with no marking, there is no original starting point and if 6" is the maximum allowable distance, one knows very well that many golfers will roll the ball, again, inadvertently or deliberately, more than 6" and there is no effective way a fellow competitor can accurately supervise the move.

Using a scorecard for the preferred lie is not a standard length.

Yes, a club length is generous, but it is more fair, measurable, and superviseable, if that's a word, than any other distance.

[ColinL]

 

Using a scorecard for the preferred lie is not a standard length.

Yes, a club length is generous, but it is more fair, measurable, and superviseable, if that's a word, than any other distance.

A club length is not a standard length either.  6 inches or 15 cms  or any other measurable distance is the same for all players.

 

[Fourputt]

One club length is a specific distance, that is, up to 48", and because the ball is first marked, there is little opportunity for the golfer to inadvertently, or deliberately, place his ball farther from the original lie than this distance.

In rolling the ball with no marking, there is no original starting point and if 6" is the maximum allowable distance, one knows very well that many golfers will roll the ball, again, inadvertently or deliberately, more than 6" and there is no effective way a fellow competitor can accurately supervise the move.

Using a scorecard for the preferred lie is not a standard length.

Yes, a club length is generous, but it is more fair, measurable, and superviseable, if that's a word, than any other distance.

Where do you get the idea that a clublength is anything remotely like a standard length?  Clubs come in a range of lengths, and not all players carry the same size longest club.  A score card is a better standard when limited to the course that the local rule has been activated for, since all of the cards for that course are expected to be the same size.  That would make it far more of a standard for play at a given course than a clublength.  

As mentioned earlier, taking a full driver's length gives a player up to 4 feet of leeway, far more than the original intent of the preferred lies local rule.  That lets him escape other problems he may have found, beyond simply relieving him of a sloppy lie or muddy ball.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Fourputt

[HonestyPolicy]

Okay, I've been thinking that many of my playing partners were cheating by moving the ball for any reason. The preferred method has been to kick the ball out of divots.

In an extreme case, one of them picked up the ball from hard pan behind some trees and plopped the ball in the middle of the fairway.

It seems to me that preferred lies is a way to cheat? I'd feel better about playing the ball from where ever it's sitting. Or take an unplayable.

I totally agree that even when the door is only slightly open, some will apply their own personal interpretation in a way that benefits them. They'll call it preferred lies, I call it cheating.

The recommendation is only about the specific words used. The fundamental principles are mandatory.

Even though I agree with every word you are saying, it does not say that in the manual and it needs to. The exact wording from the link I provided in the OP is, "When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes preferred lies (winter rules) would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended: " And so what these opportunists who are looking for an advantage do is they interpret the wording as meaning that they can make any local rule they want with regard to preferred lies and that whats in the manual, they say, is only a recommendation. In my opinion the USGA and R&A need to say there are only two methods, method1 is section 13-1 (play the ball as it lies) and method2 is no longer a recommendation, it is an alternate to be invoked by the committee only when conditions warrant. That way there is nothing left to interpretation and we have an either/or, not an either/"or whatever you want".   

 

[WUTiger]

In the local amateur circuit, some of the courses we played this year had a "preferred lie" rule due to unusual ground under repair situations, or noxious plant growth.

At one course, the fairways had spot patches of some unusual weed, and we got a free drop out of such areas. This was done using prescribed USGA procedures - mark spot with a tee, measure two club lengths "no closer to hole", and then take a drop.

Some of the players said this was  preferred lie, but now I'm not so sure it was. Was it really just GUR procedures?