The first few inches of the takeaway

[craps]

The first few inches of the takeaway is vital to a good swing. Some said straight back, others say an arc. This is grossly misinterpret with the naked eye when you see a pro do the takeaway. For me drawing a vertical capital U while turning the body usually ensure me a good swing. what is yours?

[MichiganLefty]

Of all that I have read, a few simple principles inhabit my paradigm on the topic of starting my backswing:

---Proper grip, stance, and alignment at address puts us in the correct position to start a backswing. My big revelation here was that I naturally setup open even though my feet are square. It requires a slight shift of my back hip/buttocks to be square.

---Want my clubface to be "looking" at the ball the whole way back.

---Want to maintain a consistent tempo throughout the backswing and through.

---Primarily, proper grip and stance and alignment. Nail down the fundamentals!

 

[saevel25]

41 minutes ago, craps said:

The first few inches of the takeaway is vital to a good swing. Some said straight back, others say an arc. This is grossly misinterpret with the naked eye when you see a pro do the takeaway. For me drawing a vertical capital U while turning the body usually ensure me a good swing. what is yours?

I would say it's not essential. 

Feel isn't real. No club really mores straight back because the club moves on an arc. 

For me, I'm focusing on lifting my arms to A2, allowing the right arm get softer and more bent. For me it feels like I'm lifting the butt end of the club upward. Imagine if you wanted to throw a bucket of water over your right shoulder.

 

[craps]

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I would say it's not essential. 

Feel isn't real. No club really mores straight back because the club moves on an arc. 

For me, I'm focusing on lifting my arms to A2, allowing the right arm get softer and more bent. For me it feels like I'm lifting the butt end of the club upward. Imagine if you wanted to throw a bucket of water over your right shoulder.

 

If you would like to talk about clubface control, then the first few inches of the takeaway is vital. Did you ever check and see when your wrist starts cocking and when your right hand roll more on top of left hand? I know a lot of players don't pay attention to this. They just let the swing happens. Maybe this is the part of the swing where we pay more attention to so that we can achieve more consistency. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, craps said:

If you would like to talk about clubface control, then the first few inches of the takeaway is vital. Did you ever check and see when your wrist starts cocking and when your right hand roll more on top of left hand? I know a lot of players don't pay attention to this. They just let the swing happens. Maybe this is the part of the swing where we pay more attention to so that we can achieve more consistency. 

I wouldn't call the first few inches critical (or "vital"). And the right hand doesn't roll on top of the left hand - the opposite happens.

To the first point, I can swing the club all variety of directions and so long as I'm in a reasonably decent position at the top, make a good downswing. The closer you get to impact the more something matters, and the first few inches of the backswing is about as far away as you can get without talking about setup position only.

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, craps said:

The first few inches of the takeaway is vital to a good swing. Some said straight back, others say an arc. This is grossly misinterpret with the naked eye when you see a pro do the takeaway. For me drawing a vertical capital U while turning the body usually ensure me a good swing. what is yours?

Well if we're literally talking about the first few inches then the club will probably appear to move "straight" back. 

As we know from watching tour players there are a variety of takeaways that can work. Generally most golfers have to avoid getting the club sucked low and in with the hands not gaining depth. Leads to the "shallow to steep" move.

I'm similar to you. I just try to make a good turn, keep my upper arms connected to my torso and that typically takes care of the rest of it. I think golfers get too concerned with what the club is doing and don't address what's going on with the body (generally speaking).

[craps]

Most people with consistent conventional swings usually fights a push unless you uses the weight forward method. (Stack and tilt or 5SK ) Many would toy with a stronger grip. If you roll you left hand slightly underneath and the right hand slightly left as you takeaway, that would cure the push shot cos the clubface would be in relation to the spine tilt. In fact for the clubface to truly facing the target line during take off, one has to rotate the hands a bit to the left as one moves. AGREE?

[mvmac]

11 minutes ago, craps said:

Most people with consistent conventional swings usually fights a push unless you uses the weight forward method. (Stack and tilt or 5SK )

I think you're confusing some things. For 5SK, Key #2 weight forward is on the downswing, not the backswing like S&T recommends.

I'd also say more golfers hit pull fades/slices than hit pushes.

11 minutes ago, craps said:

If you roll you left hand slightly underneath and the right hand slightly left as you takeaway, that would cure the push shot cos the clubface would be in relation to the spine tilt. 

There's many other things that can happen from the takeaway to impact that can lead you to push it. You can also have the face "square to the arc/spine" without counter rotating your forearms or hands. 

11 minutes ago, craps said:

In fact for the clubface to truly facing the target line during take off, one has to rotate the hands a bit to the left as one moves. AGREE?

Not sure what you're trying to say here. The ball starts where the face is pointing at impact. 

[craps]

At address, the hands hold the club  in such a way that the club face is square to the target. To move from ground zero to waist high,  where club is at toe line, its best to turn hands and club face slightly inwards during the whole process. 

Imagine club moves in an arc flatly on the ground, you will notice the club face opens fairly quickly. If you move from ground zero to waist high, without doing anything with your hands, the club face which appears pointing to the target line, is actually opened. That is why golf instruction never preach neutral grips. A fairly strong grip is always taught. But a strong grip usually produce pulled shots unless one has a very good hip slide towards the impact.

What I am preaching here is using a neutral grip and then as one moves the club to waist high, incorporate a slight inward rotation of hands towards left. That way at waist high, the club face will be the same as the spine tilt. One thing I notice is I produce a lot of backspin shots when I swing this way.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, craps said:

At address, the hands hold the club  in such a way that the club face is square to the target. To move from ground zero to waist high,  where club is at toe line, its best to turn hands and club face slightly inwards during the whole process. 

Imagine club moves in an arc flatly on the ground, you will notice the club face opens fairly quickly. If you move from ground zero to waist high, without doing anything with your hands, the club face which appears pointing to the target line, is actually opened. That is why golf instruction never preach neutral grips. A fairly strong grip is always taught. But a strong grip usually produce pulled shots unless one has a very good hip slide towards the impact.

What I am preaching here is using a neutral grip and then as one moves the club to waist high, incorporate a slight inward rotation of hands towards left. That way at waist high, the club face will be the same as the spine tilt. One thing I notice is I produce a lot of backspin shots when I swing this way.

The hands are opposing each other. How can you rotate both hands inward, yet in the same direction? I'm not understanding what you're saying? Can you show a picture series or video?

[craps]

Sorry, I meant right hand inwards. Naturally the left hand will move downwards. ( counter clockwise ) Bear in mind that the club face is not close as a result of this move. The forearm does rotate a bit too. 

Just imagine those big swing groovers where you step in between a big metal inclined ring and you move your club along the circumference of the ring. I would dare say a lot of people will open the club face as a result of rotatating their forearm clockwise but if you were to hold those forearms until waist high you will notice that the clubfacevis constantly facing the target.

Again I am talking about a minimal move.

[saevel25]

4 hours ago, craps said:

What I am preaching here is using a neutral grip and then as one moves the club to waist high, incorporate a slight inward rotation of hands towards left. That way at waist high, the club face will be the same as the spine tilt. One thing I notice is I produce a lot of backspin shots when I swing this way.

I'm not buying this neutral grp + counter clockwise rotation. It's just adding complexity to the golf swing that shouldn't be there. The club has to open up. It goes from typically square to slightly open at address to 90 degrees open at A4. It's just how the hands work with regards to turning the body. 

Pushes and pulls are caused by swing path issues, which I don't see what you are talking about helping in that regard at impact.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, craps said:

Sorry, I meant right hand inwards. Naturally the left hand will move downwards. ( counter clockwise ) Bear in mind that the club face is not close as a result of this move. The forearm does rotate a bit too. 

Just imagine those big swing groovers where you step in between a big metal inclined ring and you move your club along the circumference of the ring. I would dare say a lot of people will open the club face as a result of rotatating their forearm clockwise but if you were to hold those forearms until waist high you will notice that the clubfacevis constantly facing the target.

Again I am talking about a minimal move.

Closed to what? The direction the club face faces is where the ball is going. Are trying to explain what "naturally" happens if a human swings a club along an inclined hoop! Forearm rotation? Like your friend mythbuster, I'd really appreciate some visuals to clarify what the hell youre talking about.

[Mr. Desmond]

I don't want to hack the OP death; I think mvmac and iacas have corrected any errors or lack of knowledge by the OP. Since I tend to overuse my arms and want to stop, I tend to consciously start the swing with my hips, knowing that my hands probably moved first. If your arms are attached to the chest/ribcage, then one ought to begin a wide arc with the hands moving slightly inside... (I think).

[iacas]

7 hours ago, craps said:

What I am preaching here is using a neutral grip and then as one moves the club to waist high, incorporate a slight inward rotation of hands towards left. That way at waist high, the club face will be the same as the spine tilt. One thing I notice is I produce a lot of backspin shots when I swing this way.

Here's the last little bit (I think) I'll say about this: we certainly have taught and will continue to use the feel or idea of "counter-rotation" (what we call it) of the hands during the initial part of the backswing.

But it's not a cure-all, and it's not something everyone should do. More often the people who roll their hands/forearms/wrists a lot during the backswing also swing back very flat and around themselves, too, so a better feel for them often involves changing the way the trail elbow and wrist load: more hinging, more cocking the club upward, etc. That "doubles up" and tends to "fix" the extra rotation they have. Sometimes just feeling "counter-rotation" gets someone to have a squarer face longer into the backswing and transition, but they'll still swing very shallow during the backswing and then the compensations from transition down can become hell.

@craps, if the feeling works for you - great. Glad to hear it. But in my experience few "feels" work for everyone, and this one specifically hasn't done much for a lot of players.

[craps]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

abClosed to what? The direction the club face faces is where the ball is going. Are trying to explain what "naturally" happens if a human swings a club along an inclined hoop! Forearm rotation? Like your friend mythbuster, I'd really appreciate some visuals to clarify what the hell youre talking about.

Let me try this. Imagine you have a display item in your home that shapes like a big O. Now you try to clean the inner circle with your left hand using a cloth. The O is on an inclined plane. Notice how your hand and arms will move. The palm which is faced down is slightly facing sideways as you glide up the O. Imagine you tag along the right hand. The right hand will roll on top of left. 

So during the first few inches of my takeaway, I will roll somewhat like that but very very minimal. Golf instructors will want you to trace an imaginary arc. That is correct but a high percentage of people doing this actually open the face a little without noticing it.

I lived in a house with a 40 yd. Living room The house has a 25 ft high ceiling From one end of the room there is a 6 in. beam and directly opposite this beam, there is another beam. I hit good quality dimple foam balls and since using this 'secret move' I was able to hit the beam and the ball would ricochet to the opposite beam. This tells me I hit it dead straight without side spin. If I don't do this, most of my shots are push shots and if I try to round my swing I will impart a lot of side spin yo the ball cos' the ball will rebound and not hit the oppdite beam.

I urge people to try this move and see whether it works for you.  It works better with a neutral grip though.

 

 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, craps said:

So during the first few inches of my takeaway, I will roll somewhat like that but very very minimal. Golf instructors will want you to trace an imaginary arc. That is correct but a high percentage of people doing this actually open the face a little without noticing it.

@craps, did you read what I - a golf instructor - said above?

Some players will benefit from this. Others won't. As @saevel25 said, the forearms do end up rolling about 90° or so by the top of the backswing anyway. If they didn't, the club would be hanging out over our heads. So in my experience the first few inches matter to some, but not even most.

Again, if the feel works for you, great. It works for some of our students, too, and we use it when it feels like a good fit.

[craps]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

@craps, did you read what I - a golf instructor - said above?

Some players will benefit from this. Others won't. As @saevel25 said, the forearms do end up rolling about 90° or so by the top of the backswing anyway. If they didn't, the club would be hanging out over our heads. So in my experience the first few inches matter to some, but not even most.

Again, if the feel works for you, great. It works for some of our students, too, and we use it when it feels like a good fit.

Sorry, I actually compose the reply way before you reply but only send after you send. That is why I did not read your post. I should have edit some content then.

I understand why Hogan said he has a 'secret' but never reveal it cos' probably he thinks the secret  only works for him.

Jordan Speith has a secret move too. It got to be his grip.

I admire Raymond Floyd  the most cos' his back swing is so wrong and yet he is so right at the top of the swing.