Interesting Pairing and an Etiquette Lesson

[Gator Hazard]

Good morning fellow TST members.  How is everyone today?  Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving weekend and had the opportunity to play some good golf.

Friday morning I went golfing as a single player and got paired up with two other gentleman, a son and father.  It was a very busy course and I was not the only one to think of heading out on Black Friday to play golf instead of fighting with the masses over discounted materials.  On the first tee the son hit good distance but was left hand side, the father hit average also left hand side.  I teed off last with them already in their cart and knocked a good one out there straight.  My second shot I duffed straight about 80 yards on the ground but so did they.  I put my ball on the green about 20-25 feet away and drained a putt to save par.  They got bogey and double bogey or both got double bogey I can't remember.

At the second hole they were ahead of us and got out the cart and the son immediately teed up his ball to hit, I am not a stickler on etiquette, especially considering I am there to have a good time and being that I am paired up with them I didn't say anything.  We play the hole out and come up to a par three.  The father hits and makes the green pin high about 10 feet away, I hit and make the green (kidney shaped green) about 25 feet away.  The son's ball landed in the curved rough part of the kidney shaped green but much closer to the hole than I was.  The dad walked up to hold the stick, the son looks at his ball and is not even ready and looks at me as he is standing in front of the ball between the pin and crouched down.  I thought I was okay to putt and did so, laying up decently.  The kid then plays his chip on.  We finish out the hole and the son (lower 30s in age) kindly pulls me aside and tells me "Hey, I want you to know that I don't mind but so you know in the future you never, ever putt until all players are on the green...etc., etc....."  He then goes on and on about it in a polite way, trying to instruct me in the courtesies of the game.  I found it to become a bit overbearing but I understand it was in the spirit of good faith and sportsmanship and helping a newbie player out with the intricacies of the game.  Hey, when a guy who says he grew up on a country club gives you an etiquette tip and is helping you out, you should pay attention, and you should appreciate it.  Some time later on the back nine his father did the same thing and he didn't say a word about it.

(As an odd side note on Saturday night as I was watching the Australian Open that exact same scenario came up and a player putted before another chipped on, and the announcers made mention of it.  So is it a breach of etiquette in a friendly round to have done what I did?)  

The thing that I found the most interesting however was that this person, apparently a player of the traditional courtesies and gestures of golf didn't ever stay on the tee box until all players teed off.  He didn't give honors where honors were due to the person scoring the lowest score on previous hole, AND, to top it all off, this person eventually wound up hitting into a group still off to the side of the green about two holes later.  We called out fore when it hooked and landed near them.  

Lo and behold we did get a visit by a marshall for his action (the group ahead did overreact a bit and they lied and said we/he had hit into them numerous times, which was not true).  Afterwards this persons game rapidly devolved, he was angry and not able to control his emotions.  I felt bad for him because we were out there to enjoy ourselves and he let that get in the way of a good time.   I said something to him on the next tee box (maybe I should not have) that we were out there to have a good time and not to let it get to them.  F them in fact!  Well by the 13th tee or so, our country club raised champion was not even playing what I would call golf.  Took a mulligan for an errant tee shot.  Didn't like his second shot (fourth) from where it was, dropped another ball and hit.  He did this a number of times.  On one hole he hit into a fairway bunker, his second shot out of it caught the lip, ball rolled back a bit and he just dropped a ball where he stood, struck it to the same effect.  Picked up his balls and didn't play the hole out.  This happened several times, and on the last hole when his second drive also went OB he picked up and didn't even finish the hole.  

After the etiquette pep talk he gave me as well as his country club bred credentials I would have expected more, but that day he let a few things ruin his day.  Lesson to be had:  If you are playing a $37 dollar course, lighten up, and never, ever, ever, ever hit into a group ahead of you because it can ruin your whole day.  

I really enjoyed playing with the dad and would play again with him if ever saw him.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[RFKFREAK]

This is why whenever I play with someone I don't know I always ask them to play ready golf.  That way, the round is played quicker and there are no discussions like the one you had.

As for how his round might have been impacted by circumstances; it happens.  I've certainly started off a round, had a few things go against me and then just had the feeling of wanting to finish up and get it over with.

[Gator Hazard]

5 minutes ago, RFKFREAK said:

This is why whenever I play with someone I don't know I always ask them to play ready golf.  That way, the round is played quicker and there are no discussions like the one you had.

As for how his round might have been impacted by circumstances; it happens.  I've certainly started off a round, had a few things go against me and then just had the feeling of wanting to finish up and get it over with.

That is sound advice and I will bring up ready golf next time I am paired with people I don't know.  Thanks!

 

[Abu3baid]

3 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

That is sound advice and I will bring up ready golf next time I am paired with people I don't know.  Thanks!

 

Someone can correct me, but I think it the determining factor in who goes next is the distance to the hole.. So, if someone was in the rough, but closer to the hole than someone on the putting green then the guy putting needs to go first, as there is no such thing as wait for everyone to get on the green..  

[Rainmaker]

It's been a while since I played with strangers but, like rfkfreak, I typically ask "Do you guys mind if we play ready golf"?  on the first tee.  Nobody has ever said no.  

It sounds like you kept a pretty good attitude - I think you were totally in the right and, as you noticed, the guy was not even correct about all players needing to be on the green before anybody putts.  

A long time ago, I got paired up with a total loser who had only played a few times.  He was obnoxious and terrible at golf . .but the worst part was his etiquette.  He drove his cart on tee boxes, walked all over mine and his partners lines on the green, parked his cart on the fringe.  Anyway - I tried to offhand mention about walking on people's lines and even though I tried to be nice about it he took it the wrong way.  It was an awkward round and I decided that I would simply endure strangers with poor etiquette vs trying to correct them in any way.  

[billchao]

16 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Someone can correct me, but I think it the determining factor in who goes next is the distance to the hole.

Yes, it's distance from the hole. Doesn't matter who is on the green or not.

It matters in match play, where you can make an opponent retake their stroke for playing out if turn. During a casual stroke play round, it doesn't matter. I usually play ready golf with whoever I'm paired up with.

Found it funny that the kid was giving @Gator Hazard etiquette lessons despite being wrong and not observing them himself.

[Gator Hazard]

34 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

It's been a while since I played with strangers but, like rfkfreak, I typically ask "Do you guys mind if we play ready golf"?  on the first tee.  Nobody has ever said no.  

It sounds like you kept a pretty good attitude - I think you were totally in the right and, as you noticed, the guy was not even correct about all players needing to be on the green before anybody putts.  

A long time ago, I got paired up with a total loser who had only played a few times.  He was obnoxious and terrible at golf . .but the worst part was his etiquette.  He drove his cart on tee boxes, walked all over mine and his partners lines on the green, parked his cart on the fringe.  Anyway - I tried to offhand mention about walking on people's lines and even though I tried to be nice about it he took it the wrong way.  It was an awkward round and I decided that I would simply endure strangers with poor etiquette vs trying to correct them in any way.  

I am new to the game but I have tried to at least know the major etiquettes that should be displayed on the course.  I am sure I break some, and when I play with my partner we probably break most of them but that is because we don't care around each other and would far rather break each others balls and have fun, we always respect the course and the staff and other players however.  I know what he was trying to do was in the spirit of helping out a newer player understand an etiquette of golf so I tried not to let it get to me.  I actually was a bit taken aback, even though I was not 100% sure I was okay to have putted, being that he had already broken two rules of etiquette that I think are as important if not more important and at least one that is supposed to be glaringly obvious to even the newest of golfers (honors on the tee).  So, I was slightly upset for a bit, but rather than let it bother me I laughed about it knowing what he had already done.  He was an alright guy, he just was trying to do what he thought was best and I know a lot of mistakes happen with best intents.

When I very first started golfing out here, I actually did walk across someone's line and the person whom I used to work with told me what I did and made me aware, and I appreciated it. In your instance if the person was driving his cart onto the tee box or up to the greens that is what I would have said something about because that is an infraction that can get you an earful from a marshal if not kicked off the course. It is an easier conversation to have as you can explain the penalties by the staff if they or any other golfer sees it happening.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[rkim291968]

1 hour ago, Gator Hazard said:

I really enjoyed playing with the dad and would play again with him if ever saw him.

I would have thought the dad would have said something to his son ... or expected the dad to be the main culprit to your story.  

Yup, it's the golfer with farthest to go chips or putts first.   

In a last weekend's round, we had a front group consisted of 3 young ladies in their late 20s or early 30s.   I saw one of them repeatedly act up after a bad shot, throwing her club high in the air at least twice.   She must have threw the club about 10 yards at least.  She had to walk a little to pick up her club.   The other was a non-stop loud talker and we could hear her conversation from our tee boxes.   It was a bit of surprise to see the behavior from ladies.   But, hey, golfer's temper tantrum has no gender boundary. 

[Gator Hazard]

1 minute ago, rkim291968 said:

I would have thought the dad would have said something to his son ... or expected the dad to be the main culprit to your story.  

Yup, it's the golfer with farthest to go chips or putts first.   

In a last weekend's round, we had a front group consisted of 3 young ladies in their late 20s or early 30s.   I saw one of them repeatedly act up after a bad shot, throwing her club high in the air at least twice.   She must have threw the club about 10 yards at least.  She had to walk a little to pick up her club.   The other was a non-stop loud talker and we could hear her conversation from our tee boxes.   It was a beat of surprise to see the behavior from ladies.   But, hey, golfer's temper tantrum has no gender boundary. 

The dad was not much better of a player than I am, he would be easy to pair up with and he seemed light hearted about the game.  He would talk to himself after a bad shot from time to time, he was encouraging, would always compliment me on a good shot or putt.  I drained two huge putts that day, on the first tee from about 20-25 feet out, and again on the back nine from the fringe over a double breaker about 30-35 feet away.  He told me "you have to pull that ball out yourself", ha-ha.

I have never thrown a club, I wanted too on Sunday after hitting 4 balls in the woods on the second tee.  My partner "well, you're making good contact with the ball". 

[Rainmaker]

16 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

I am new to the game but I have tried to at least know the major etiquettes that should be displayed on the course.  I am sure I break some, and when I play with my partner we probably break most of them but that is because we don't care around each other and would far rather break each others balls and have fun, we always respect the course and the staff and other players however.  I know what he was trying to do was in the spirit of helping out a newer player understand an etiquette of golf so I tried not to let it get to me.  I actually was a bit taken aback, even though I was not 100% sure I was okay to have putted, being that he had already broken two rules of etiquette that I think are as important if not more important and at least one that is supposed to be glaringly obvious to even the newest of golfers (honors on the tee).  So, I was slightly upset for a bit, but rather than let it bother me I laughed about it knowing what he had already done.  He was an alright guy, he just was trying to do what he thought was best and I know a lot of mistakes happen with best intents.

When I very first started golfing out here, I actually did walk across someone's line and the person whom I used to work with told me what I did and made me aware, and I appreciated it. In your instance if the person was driving his cart onto the tee box or up to the greens that is what I would have said something about because that is an infraction that can get you an earful from a marshal if not kicked off the course. It is an easier conversation to have as you can explain the penalties by the staff if they or any other golfer sees it happening.

 

Well . if I remember the sequence of events correctly, the marshal did come over and tell him to keep the cart off the green a hole or 2 before I said anything to him about walking on lines.  The marshal visited us twice - once for slow play (him) and again for the carts on the green . .not sure which was first, lol.  I've had nothing but good luck with pairings except for that day.   

 

Oh yeah . .another annoying thing about this guy and his partner (think it was his girlfriend) was that they were in a cart at all.  This was at a 9 hole par 3 course (the one that Tiger played one when he was 2 or something, lol). .I didn't even know they had carts.  

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rainmaker

[mcanadiens]

Wow. Two visits from a marshal on the same day. Yikes.

For what its worth, I have one guy I play with regularly that still believes the guy off the green plays first even when closer to the hole. I tried to explain it to him once and haven't bothered again since he's casual.

You sir, hit the trifecta. Playing with a stickler who is both a d-bag and wrong at the same time. 

[Golfingdad]

As others have mentioned, technically, you were correct because its distance from the hole, not which part of the course, that determines who plays next.  That said, its not uncommon during casual play to get everybody up onto the green first so that the flag doesn't have to be removed and replaced multiple times.

I like the idea of not worrying about the flag and just playing ready golf, like others have also mentioned. :)

[mdl]

In limited defense of guy you're talking about, I've always played ready golf, but I was taught when I first started that around the green you wait until everyone's on, whether you're playing ready golf or not.  Basically, I think the guy you're talking about played exactly right before hooking into another group and not warning them and then melting down.  Whoever's at the tee and ready first should tee off, driving up to your ball that's a bit ahead but well off to the side to wait for someone longer from the hole to hit is fine if you're reasonable and well out of the way, etc.

And I think your attitude about him trying to "help" you is right on too.  If it seems like another player is new I too might say something about etiquette, though obviously not in this case.  For example, my brother in law and his wife took up casual golf a while back but were just teaching themselves on a country course where they were pretty much always alone.  I had to explain to them during a Christmas round that it's not acceptable to drive the cart almost up onto the fringe!

[Gator Hazard]

2 minutes ago, mdl said:

In limited defense of guy you're talking about, I've always played ready golf, but I was taught when I first started that around the green you wait until everyone's on, whether you're playing ready golf or not.  Basically, I think the guy you're talking about played exactly right before hooking into another group and not warning them and then melting down.  Whoever's at the tee and ready first should tee off, driving up to your ball that's a bit ahead but well off to the side to wait for someone longer from the hole to hit is fine if you're reasonable and well out of the way, etc.

And I think your attitude about him trying to "help" you is right on too.  If it seems like another player is new I too might say something about etiquette, though obviously not in this case.  For example, my brother in law and his wife took up casual golf a while back but were just teaching themselves on a country course where they were pretty much always alone.  I had to explain to them during a Christmas round that it's not acceptable to drive the cart almost up onto the fringe!

I thought I was correct but what really got me was his looking at me, almost as if he was communicating that he was not ready and I should putt.  That coupled with the fact that I was correct to play it as I was away really threw me for a loop.  I got back in my cart and told my wife who came along for the ride and to keep me company that I breached an etiquette but didn't think I did.  He would have been correct if he would have stated that although what I did was technically correct, in a casual round you usually let everyone get on the green first.  Or he could have said something similar and "and that's how we play" as opposed to pulling me to the side to tell me he grew up on a golf course in a country club (power dick move ....even if he doesn't realize that is the way it comes off) and to give me information that is not really all that correct and in fact is wrong.  I loved the growing up in a country club statement as if that is where the authority and certainty of knowing the rules and etiquette came from; that would be like me telling someone how to play craps because I grew up in Las Vegas and played it a few times (I don't really know most of the strategies of how to play craps).  

If he grew up in a country club on a golf course and played he should have at a minimum:  Mentioned ready golf and what he means by it, especially when a player mentions that they are very, very new to the game.  At a minimum stood on the first tee box as all members teed off for the first hole.  And at a minimum he should have conducted himself with a little more poise after saying he grew up golfing on his country club course.  If someone is going to bring up etiquette on a golf course they should at least be able to hold it together for 18 holes and set a good example for the new player to see.  

That being said, I still do not fault the guy that much, I understand and it is fine.  I was there to have a good time and I did, shot my average on a course I have never played with the highest slope rating I have played to date.

[dkolo]

The person whose turn it is is the person farthest from the hole, regardless of being on or off the green. But it's completely acceptable, and usually preferable from a convenience and speed perspective, to have people who are closer but need the flag in to go first. If I have a 30 foot putt and an old guy with bad vision who needs the flag attended has a 20 foot putt, it's dumb to have me go first unless it's a match play scenario. 

[arturo28mx]

I have a book on the rules of golf and there's an introduction on basic etiquette and it clearly says the person farthest from the hole goes first, even if someone else is in a bunker closer to the hole.

[Lihu]

7 hours ago, RFKFREAK said:

This is why whenever I play with someone I don't know I always ask them to play ready golf.  That way, the round is played quicker and there are no discussions like the one you had.

As for how his round might have been impacted by circumstances; it happens.  I've certainly started off a round, had a few things go against me and then just had the feeling of wanting to finish up and get it over with.

Or the same order teeing off every time, no honors.

The business about the chipping and putting is more about pace of play. If the putt is 100 feet away and the chip is 20 feet away. the 100 foot putt usually goes first. If they are the same distance the chip usually goes first. The main reason is having to pull the flag and pop it back in again takes time.

 

7 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

Someone can correct me, but I think it the determining factor in who goes next is the distance to the hole.. So, if someone was in the rough, but closer to the hole than someone on the putting green then the guy putting needs to go first, as there is no such thing as wait for everyone to get on the green..  

It's about the time it takes. If you are adding more time doing something, then do the other thing to save time.

[Gator Hazard]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

Or the same order teeing off every time, no honors.

The business about the chipping and putting is more about pace of play. If the putt is 100 feet away and the chip is 20 feet away. the 100 foot putt usually goes first. If they are the same distance the chip usually goes first. The main reason is having to pull the flag and pop it back in again takes time.

 

It's about the time it takes. If you are adding more time doing something, then do the other thing to save time.

I should mention that tending flagstick would be necessary from distsnce i eas putting and it was elevated. The dad had grabbed and was ready for both of us