Dottie Pepper on recent RoG changes - LPGA caddies should stop lining up putts

[nevets88]

This is a long piece - she talks about anchoring, pace of play and other things, but the lining up was what was emphasized in Geoff Shackelford's blog which got my attention.

Quote

Caddies lining up players

I was one of those players who did it for a while and thought it was helping me when, in fact, it was slowing me down while not making me take complete ownership of my shot decision or execution.

Lining up the shot is the player's responsibility. Period. It is part of being a golfer, part of playing the game. You can have all the help you want on the practice range, but get at it and get at it by yourself on the course. It not only looks bad to the television viewer, but also gives the impression that the player isn't in command of his or her game.

 

http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/14355687/taking-golf-governing-bodies-task-anchor-ban-more

[rogolf]

And she is right.  It also perpetuates the belief that the ladies require that assistance, they're not able to do it themselves.  "Get at it and get at it by yourself."  Love it!  However, the Rules have gone as far as they can, prohibiting the assistance during a stroke.

[DaveP043]

I also like her stance on speed of greens.  It seems like more and more golfers equate really fast greens with really high quality, but making greens too fast can make them virtually unplayable.  I know that's the case at my home club, and its due to the slopes on the greens.  If we golfers would accept slightly slower greens, I think we'd find that the pace of play would improve, and maintenance costs might be decreased.

I thought her take on the new rule that disallows posting of solo rounds to be interesting.  She suggested that this may be a step towards unifying handicap systems worldwide, since solo rounds aren't posted for handicap purposes in England.  Those of us under the USGA rules can't expect everyone else in the world to adopt our method, unifying the systems will take some compromise from everyone.

The last thing I'll bring up is her mention of pace of play.  Whenever possible, I'd advocate simply posting start and finish times for every group on the course, along with the players' names.  Its no good calling someone a slow player, that only causes hard feelings.  Simply post the times, and let the entire membership evaluate who is causing the gaps, and who is playing slow, based on real data.

[Rulesman]

13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

since solo rounds aren't posted for handicap purposes in England.  

Nor in the rest of Europe and parts of Asia and the Middle East.

I agree re green speeds. 10+ on the stimp on undulating greens usually means an extra stroke.

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Rulesman

[DaveP043]

Just now, Rulesman said:

Nor in the rest of Europe and parts of Asia and the Middle East

And I'm guessing, these are all regions that look to the R&A for rules?  Is this the CONGU handicap system?  Or are these a number of different handicap systems?

[rogolf]

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

And I'm guessing, these are all regions that look to the R&A for rules?  Is this the CONGU handicap system?  Or are these a number of different handicap systems?

The R&A is not involved in handicapping systems - it is the responsibility of the individual national golf associations.

[Rulesman]

30 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

And I'm guessing, these are all regions that look to the R&A for rules?  Is this the CONGU handicap system?  Or are these a number of different handicap systems?

The CONGU system is used in the UK & Eire and parts of Asia and the Middle East. A very similar system (EGA) (ie with slope) is used in the rest of Europe. The are other systems about, South Africa, Argentina and others, but Australia use a modified version of the USGA system. There are some other countries using the USGA system

Everywhere outside the USA & Mexico are in the R&A jurisdiction for rules but they are not involved in handicapping systems.

 

It is virtually certain that CONGU and EGA would have merged when England finally switched to the USGA Course Rating system for slope if the proposal for a worldwide system had not come to the fore.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Rulesman

[DaveP043]

Thanks, I hadn't realized how many different systems there were.  It makes the goal of creating a single world-wide handicap system even more daunting, but it still seems to be a worthwhile ambition.  

[DrvFrShow]

Interesting article. The better LPGA players can putt. This is worse than the anchored stroke - which they should have left alone, IMO. I'm not allowed to have a caddie in tournaments so I don't get to have someone pointing out my putting line. Lining up putts is the player's responsibility - save the help for practice rounds. 

I like her stance on the anchored stroke. As a senior and one affected with a balance disability I've experimented with the anchored stroke and found it to be very helpful. I have a long putter, and I'm keeping it. There may come a time where I tell the USGA to go to hell and not bother keeping an official HC so I can simply enjoy playing the game. The long putter is easier on my back as well which allows me to spend time practicing putting, which I don't currently do since my back starts hurting after 10 mins. The USGA should have left it alone, IMO.

The pace of play issue is another one. Posting start and finish times will only be enforceable during professional and amateur tournaments. At your average club most people go straight to their cars after their round so no one has any idea what time they finished unless you're going to put ID chips in the scorecards and scan stations around the course which will increase the cost to play a round.

They've also upped the stimp on public courses. I've noticed this at my home course. Last year at my home course they had a different grounds keeper and the greens were cut a lot shorter and kept faster all summer than they had been in the past. In combination with the dry weather they were hard and fast. This can add another stroke and slow down the pace.

 

[ay33660]

5 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

The pace of play issue is another one. Posting start and finish times will only be enforceable during professional and amateur tournaments. At your average club most people go straight to their cars after their round so no one has any idea what time they finished unless you're going to put ID chips in the scorecards and scan stations around the course which will increase the cost to play a round.

 

Actually at my course we have to punch in and punch out a time slip using a time clock.

The time slip has to be turned in at the end of the round.

If a time slip is not turned in it is the same as playing a round over the allotted time and you will receive a letter or penalties from the Board.

The allotted time for a round at our course is 4:10 during the day. Those in the first hour of the day are required to complete the round 3:50.

It works.

 

Edited December 18, 2015 by ay33660

[DrvFrShow]

@ay33660 Here's the problem. What is your time standard? I'll tell you from experience that a foursome of women who shoot about 90-95 can whip around 18 holes in about 3:00 hrs. They don't hit the ball far, but it never goes off the fairway. There's no time spent looking for the ball. The ball is up on the green, two putts and on to the next hole. The only time anyone checks distance is when they get to about 100 yds. or near a hazard.

People who hit long drives off course into the rough and trees are the problem. We slow things down. We should tee off with our 5 and 6 irons. We should hit 7 irons or shorter down the fairway. The game would go a lot faster. Very little time spent looking for lost balls. Having trouble breaking 100? Try this. Don't play the driver until you can hit it straight at the driving range.

[ay33660]

28 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

r@ay33660 Here's the problem. What is your time standard? I'll tell you from experience that a foursome of women who shoot about 90-95 can whip around 18 holes in about 3:00 hrs. They don't hit the ball far, but it never goes off the fairway. There's no time spent looking for the ball. The ball is up on the green, two putts and on to the next hole. The only time anyone checks distance is when they get to about 100 yds. or near a hazard.

People who hit long drives off course into the rough and trees are the problem. We slow things down. We should tee off with our 5 and 6 irons. We should hit 7 irons or shorter down the fairway. The game would go a lot faster. Very little time spent looking for lost balls. Having trouble breaking 100? Try this. Don't play the driver until you can hit it straight at the driving range.

As stated our time standard is a maximum of 4:10 this is stated in our policies.

While not explicitly stated in the policies it is expected that those groups in the first hour are expected to finish in 3:50 or less.

Sorry but I am not really sure what your point was in the reply but you asked about our time standard.

We don't have separate standards for women groups or for low cappers this applies to everyone.

We also have a 9 minute interval between groups.

This time limit applies to sunny summer weekend afternoons just as it applies to raining winter mid days.

And the penalties apply to everyone in the group.

Warning letters for first offense following by penalties of denial of one week, one month and more booking privileges.

All time slips must be turned into the pro shop. They have to match it against the day's tee sheet to ensure completeness.

Overall it is a bit draconian but it certainly works.

Mind you we do not publish the name of those who offend. They just get a letter from the Board of Directors.

 

Edited December 18, 2015 by ay33660

[ghalfaire]

I thought the article was interesting and agree with most of it.  I am ambivalent about the "no posting of single rounds" as I never do.  When by myself I am practicing quite a bit, so I don't post the scores and often don't keep score.  If your playing single you're bound to run into a slower group and then what do you do?  If they don't wave you though you, or at least I do, practice.

As to green speed, I concur with Ms. Pepper.  There are some course with difficult greens because of slopes and/or wind conditions and are just unplayable for most of us when green speeds get near 10 ft or so.  

I do disagree with the article about anchoring the putter.  Seems to me it eliminates a "degree of freedom" in the putting stroke making it easier to master the stroke.  I am in favor of the ban.  

[ev780]

On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 5:36 PM, ay33660 said:

 

Actually at my course we have to punch in and punch out a time slip using a time clock.

The time slip has to be turned in at the end of the round.

If a time slip is not turned in it is the same as playing a round over the allotted time and you will receive a letter or penalties from the Board.

The allotted time for a round at our course is 4:10 during the day. Those in the first hour of the day are required to complete the round 3:50.

It works.

 

OMG!!!

This can't be real?! The damn game is hard enough without this time pressure on top of a round. I would never join a course with this policy.

I have read the research and pace is a multifaceted issue.  Only one small part is actually the player! Choke points, T-time intervals, greens, rough, clientele, location, weather, type of competition and a thousand more factors all conspire to set a pace.

Anyone who has played Golf Channel tournaments can attest to the differences. Every shot matters, every ball hits the bottom of the cup and every rule must be followed. Contrast this to your weekend Saturday match play. Being in your pocket sure speeds up the day as does those nasty 3 footers that are generally gimmes on Satuday.

Sorry about the rant.  I have a Christmas cold and have nothing to do but bitch about things on the internet today.

[dkolo]

On 12/25/2015 at 3:23 PM, ev780 said:

OMG!!!

This can't be real?! The damn game is hard enough without this time pressure on top of a round. I would never join a course with this policy.

I have read the research and pace is a multifaceted issue.  Only one small part is actually the player! Choke points, T-time intervals, greens, rough, clientele, location, weather, type of competition and a thousand more factors all conspire to set a pace.

Anyone who has played Golf Channel tournaments can attest to the differences. Every shot matters, every ball hits the bottom of the cup and every rule must be followed. Contrast this to your weekend Saturday match play. Being in your pocket sure speeds up the day as does those nasty 3 footers that are generally gimmes on Satuday.

Sorry about the rant.  I have a Christmas cold and have nothing to do but bitch about things on the internet today.

I'm assuming a bad time isn't held against you if the group ahead had a bad time and you finished within like 10 minutes or so of them. So all of those factors don't really play into it if you're not the cause of the slowdown on the golf course. Keep up and you're almost certainly fine.

[ay33660]

14 hours ago, dkolo said:

I'm assuming a bad time isn't held against you if the group ahead had a bad time and you finished within like 10 minutes or so of them. So all of those factors don't really play into it if you're not the cause of the slowdown on the golf course. Keep up and you're almost certainly fine.

Correct only the first group that goes over time is penalized.

As long as the following groups finish within 10 minutes no issues.

[RickK]

On 12/25/2015 at 2:23 PM, ev780 said:

OMG!!!

This can't be real?! The damn game is hard enough without this time pressure on top of a round. I would never join a course with this policy.

I have read the research and pace is a multifaceted issue.  Only one small part is actually the player! Choke points, T-time intervals, greens, rough, clientele, location, weather, type of competition and a thousand more factors all conspire to set a pace.

Anyone who has played Golf Channel tournaments can attest to the differences. Every shot matters, every ball hits the bottom of the cup and every rule must be followed. Contrast this to your weekend Saturday match play. Being in your pocket sure speeds up the day as does those nasty 3 footers that are generally gimmes on Satuday.

Sorry about the rant.  I have a Christmas cold and have nothing to do but bitch about things on the internet today.

I play in a tournament league and I can attest that play is way too slow.  But, I also know that I have been in the first group out in our tournament league (4some) and we finished the round in right at 4 hours.  There is no ball in pocket, there is no "pick it up, it is good".  We play full USGA rules and every shot does count.  Our problem is we have people who, try as we may to speed them up, simply are slow players.  We have those who are never ready when it is their turn to play.  Or, exactly how many practice swings do you really need.  And, how long can you stand over the ball while you are addressing it.  Everything adds up.  Then if you have a lost ball or potentially lost ball...it gets worse.  

All this said, I really wish there was a good way to enforce a time restriction.  Marshals typically do not do the job they are supposed to do.  

Edited December 31, 2015 by RickK