What did she score for the hole?

[Asheville]

Par 3 across a pond. 

Player puts her first shot into the pond. She elects to use the dropping zone provided. But rather than dropping a ball she decides to place it on a tee within the dropping zone and subsequently hits it onto the putting green.

As she begins the walk around the pond toward the putting green, a fellow-competitor tells her that she wasn’t permitted to tee the ball in the dropping zone. Realizing her mistake she immediately returns to the dropping zone and drops another ball there, plays it onto the green and two putts later holes out.

What did she score for the hole?

[Dormie1360]

9?

First stroke                          1
R26                                     1 PS
Placed instead of dropped  2PS
2nd Stroke                          1
Returned to previous
Spot Stroke and Distance   2
2 Putts                                2

 

I'm not real good with dropping zones.  

 

                       

 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Dormie1360

[Ernest Jones]

5?

if it's a 9...Ouch!

[Rulesman]

9

[Dormie1360]

10 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

9

One thing I wasn't sure of was when the player returned to the drop zone.  Playing a stroke anywhere within the drop zone would be similar to a player returning to the tee and playing anywhere from the tee.  So R27-1 (R20-5) would be the applicable rule in the above case?

Edited January 22, 2016 by Dormie1360

[Club Rat]

My count

1 in water, out on 2, illegal hit from DZ +2, DZ hitting 5, 2 putts for a Seven.

 

[Rulesman]

Dormie

Do you think the first stroke from the DZ was from a wrong place (20-7) with a possible SB (for teeing)? 

I'm now not so sure about

Returned to previous
Spot Stroke and Distance   2

Edited January 22, 2016 by Rulesman

[Dormie1360]

44 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Dormie

Do you think the first stroke from the DZ was from a wrong place (20-7) with a possible SB (for teeing)? 

I'm now not so sure about

Returned to previous
Spot Stroke and Distance   2

Yes R20-7 Note 3 for placing instead of dropping.  Don't know about the SB.  If SB, his returning to the DZ corrects the SB so I'm thinking his score would be 7.  He gets the 2PS for 20-7 but the stroke from the teed ball (wrong place) would not count.  He would be returning to the DZ hitting 5.

If not a SB, his ball first ball played from the DZ was his ball in play. (Even though it was played from the wrong place).  When he dropped a new ball in the DZ, he incorrectly substituted for his ball in play.  I ruled the applicable rule in this case would have to be R27-1, playing a ball from the previous spot.

Regardless if whether I have this ruling correct ()  this scenario brings up a good point.  If you drop or place a ball and someone tells you  you are in the wrong place, you can lift the ball without penalty and correct.  (R20-6).  If you actually play the ball and someone tells you played from a wrong place, it's best to play two balls (R3-3) and let the committee sort it out.  Never a good idea to pickup your ball in play, before invoking R3-3, when you are not sure what to do.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Dormie1360

[Rulesman]

I'd go along with that. But favour a SB. Teeing would certainly help get it over the water.

[Dormie1360]

True, and it actually gives him a lower score.

[Asheville]

This was a junior girls event. By the time my friend arrived on the scene the damage was done! 

The USGA (paraphrased, of course) seemed to think: 

Provided the Committee did not consider the player to have gained a significant advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place, she did not have to correct her mistake – see Rule 20-7c. 

If the competitor was intending to play from the drop zone for a second time and not from the spot where her previous stroke was made, Rule 27-1 is not applicable.  In such a situation, the player incurred 5 penalty strokes.

The Committee did not rule a serious breach.

 

[Dormie1360]

2 hours ago, Asheville said:

This was a junior girls event. By the time my friend arrived on the scene the damage was done! 

The USGA (paraphrased, of course) seemed to think: 

Provided the Committee did not consider the player to have gained a significant advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place, she did not have to correct her mistake – see Rule 20-7c. 

If the competitor was intending to play from the drop zone for a second time and not from the spot where her previous stroke was made, Rule 27-1 is not applicable.  In such a situation, the player incurred 5 penalty strokes.

The Committee did not rule a serious breach.

 

If I'm counting right that makes a 10 with no SB.

She got a total of 4 PS for playing from a Wrong Place twice plus 1 for the hazard.  They ruled the player knew where their first ball played from the DZ was. (this usually means you have to actually see the ball or know it's position with certainty e.g. someone tells you where it is). As long as the player knew the location of their ball after their first stroke from the DZ, when the player  incorrectly substituted their ball in play and played from a wrong place (playing from the DZ again with a different ball) the penalty is 2PS. (the exception to R15-2).   If the player did not know the location of the ball after their first stroke from the DZ, then R27-1 would have to be the ruling by default.

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Dormie1360

[Dormie1360]

@Asheville

Any chance you could PM me the ruling?

[rogolf]

Contrary to the USGA's opinion, I would consider teeing the ball instead of dropping to be a serious breach.

[Fourputt]

6 hours ago, Dormie1360 said:

If I'm counting right that makes a 10 with no SB.

She got a total of 4 PS for playing from a Wrong Place twice plus 1 for the hazard.  They ruled the player knew where their first ball played from the DZ was. (this usually means you have to actually see the ball or know it's position with certainty e.g. someone tells you where it is). As long as the player knew the location of their ball after their first stroke from the DZ, when the player  incorrectly substituted their ball in play and played from a wrong place (playing from the DZ again with a different ball) the penalty is 2PS. (the exception to R15-2).   If the player did not know the location of the ball after their first stroke from the DZ, then R27-1 would have to be the ruling by default.

 

Technically since the player played the second ball from the DZ under stroke and distance, even though she didn't know that at the time, she was entitled to substitute a ball.

[ColinL]

I made it 9 strokes without looking at any of the replies in the thread, having decided that playing again from the DZ was stroke and distance.  I’m surprised that the USGA brings in the question of the player’s intention.  She played another stroke from where her original ball was last played which, according to 27-1a is deemed to be stroke and distance whatever might have been in her mind and whether or not the original ball could be seen:

Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

[Asheville]

6 hours ago, Dormie1360 said:

@Asheville

Any chance you could PM me the ruling?

I have only the paragraph above which is copied from a lengthy email exchange between several CGA refs. 

[Rulesman]

7 hours ago, rogolf said:

Contrary to the USGA's opinion, I would consider teeing the ball instead of dropping to be a serious breach.

The USGA did not express an opinion but said  "Provided the Committee did not consider the player to have gained a significant advantage ....  "