AJGA Rules Suck

[natureboy]

6 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

Let me summarize the problem that Pretzel is having:

Pretzel's problem is not his golf. It's that he was too smart for his own britches. He should have been dumber and stayed in high school another year, been bored to death just so he could have played junior golf this season and gotten recruited by a Div 1 college. Instead he chose to graduate early and attend college to keep his mind stimulated. He is still 17 years old. The same age as his high school class. He is simply a year ahead of them academically and is being punished for that. 

He feels the AJGA rules should be age based, not academically based. 

Good point indeed. The impertinence of this young man, @Pretzel is truly shocking. Did he not know his proper place? 

[hcopenhagenh]

On 2/10/2016 at 4:58 PM, DrvFrShow said:

So from a "rules are guidelines" person, if you want to play in AJGA tournaments, what you need to do is get a name of someone who can do something within the organization, and write a letter petitioning them for an individual waiver of the rule until your high school class graduates.

You might also use the 15 year old as an example for a case to consider changing the rule to be based upon ones high school graduating class, not one's academic status, with the exception that if one plays on an NCAA team one is disqualified from participating in AJGA events.

Does this sound like a good plan to you?

The rule is the right rule and will not change.

There are plenty of Amateur Events Pretzel can play in.  I do not feel bad for him and his situation at all.  If he is good enough to play in college then he needs to play in men's events across his state, not Junior events.

Here is the deal.  AJGA is meant to help Junior Golfers get seen by colleges to earn scholarships.  All events are performance based entry events, meaning you have to earn stars to be able to play in the events.  If you have kids already in college trying to play in the events it defeats the purpose of AJGA.

If anything, the rule should change to, "Once you have signed your LOI you may no longer play in our events."  That will allow the kids that have been denied into their events a chance to play Nationally.  There is no reason a senior that has signed their LOI needs to play in Junior events.

[turtleback]

42 minutes ago, hcopenhagenh said:

The rule is the right rule and will not change.

There are plenty of Amateur Events Pretzel can play in.  I do not feel bad for him and his situation at all.  If he is good enough to play in college then he needs to play in men's events across his state, not Junior events.

Here is the deal.  AJGA is meant to help Junior Golfers get seen by colleges to earn scholarships.  All events are performance based entry events, meaning you have to earn stars to be able to play in the events.  If you have kids already in college trying to play in the events it defeats the purpose of AJGA.

If anything, the rule should change to, "Once you have signed your LOI you may no longer play in our events."  That will allow the kids that have been denied into their events a chance to play Nationally.  There is no reason a senior that has signed their LOI needs to play in Junior events.

No, YOU are missing the point.  

He is NOT playing college golf.  And he is only IN college because he did not choose to tread water for a year academically just to play HS golf and retain eligibility for AJGA events..

I don't think he would have a problem if they made guys actually PLAYING college golf ineligible.  

Nor would he have a problem if they made it a simple age 18 limit.  

 

[DrvFrShow]

I would appreciate it if you guys would not use acronyms for terms some people don't know.

[Pretzel]

3 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

I would appreciate it if you guys would not use acronyms for terms some people don't know.

LOI means "Letter of Intent", which is usually signed on the first Wednesday of February (referred to as National Signing Day), which is a commitment to play for a specified college team. It's not a binding contract, as far as I'm aware, but it usually is a firm agreement.

8 hours ago, hcopenhagenh said:

The rule is the right rule and will not change.

There are plenty of Amateur Events Pretzel can play in.  I do not feel bad for him and his situation at all.  If he is good enough to play in college then he needs to play in men's events across his state, not Junior events.

Here is the deal.  AJGA is meant to help Junior Golfers get seen by colleges to earn scholarships.  All events are performance based entry events, meaning you have to earn stars to be able to play in the events.  If you have kids already in college trying to play in the events it defeats the purpose of AJGA.

If anything, the rule should change to, "Once you have signed your LOI you may no longer play in our events."  That will allow the kids that have been denied into their events a chance to play Nationally.  There is no reason a senior that has signed their LOI needs to play in Junior events.

You're right, it is meant to help junior golfers get seem by colleges to earn scholarships. I am a junior golfer looking to be seen by the coach at my college so I can play for the team, not a player who is currently on the team. I have earned performance based entry, yet I am denied because I'm 2-3 years (I'm a sophomore according to credit-hours) ahead of my peers in terms of academics.

Not allowing me to compete means the rules are broken (in my opinion), in that the AJGA is not fulfilling its purpose of allowing prospective college golfers to play in their tournaments. I am a prospective college golfer, who is still a junior, and it just so happens I've already started my college education. I do not think that alone should exclude me from playing in AJGA events, unless I had already played for a college team during my time at a university. 

[hcopenhagenh]

On 2/13/2016 at 8:24 PM, Pretzel said:

LOI means "Letter of Intent", which is usually signed on the first Wednesday of February (referred to as National Signing Day), which is a commitment to play for a specified college team. It's not a binding contract, as far as I'm aware, but it usually is a firm agreement.

You're right, it is meant to help junior golfers get seem by colleges to earn scholarships. I am a junior golfer looking to be seen by the coach at my college so I can play for the team, not a player who is currently on the team. I have earned performance based entry, yet I am denied because I'm 2-3 years (I'm a sophomore according to credit-hours) ahead of my peers in terms of academics.

Not allowing me to compete means the rules are broken (in my opinion), in that the AJGA is not fulfilling its purpose of allowing prospective college golfers to play in their tournaments. I am a prospective college golfer, who is still a junior, and it just so happens I've already started my college education. I do not think that alone should exclude me from playing in AJGA events, unless I had already played for a college team during my time at a university. 

I would think your coach at your college would notice you by just asking him to watch you play. Have you ever asked to meet with him?

As well, they would be just as interested in a Men's Amateur event score as they would with AJGA.  

On 2/12/2016 at 1:01 PM, turtleback said:

No, YOU are missing the point.  

He is NOT playing college golf.  And he is only IN college because he did not choose to tread water for a year academically just to play HS golf and retain eligibility for AJGA events..

I don't think he would have a problem if they made guys actually PLAYING college golf ineligible.  

Nor would he have a problem if they made it a simple age 18 limit.  

 

Nope, sorry.  I didn't miss the point.

[turtleback]

1 hour ago, hcopenhagenh said:

I would think your coach at your college would notice you by just asking him to watch you play. Have you ever asked to meet with him?

As well, they would be just as interested in a Men's Amateur event score as they would with AJGA.  

Nope, sorry.  I didn't miss the point.

Well then you argued poorly because none of your points address his actual situation.

[hcopenhagenh]

2 hours ago, turtleback said:

Well then you argued poorly because none of your points address his actual situation.

Must be a literacy problem on your part because the statements I made were valid whether he was playing on his college team or was not.

[Pretzel]

52 minutes ago, hcopenhagenh said:

Must be a literacy problem on your part because the statements I made were valid whether he was playing on his college team or was not.

You said AJGA events were for juniors to get noticed by college coaches to earn scholarships. 

I am a junior who wants to be noticed by a college coach to potentially earn a spot on the team and scholarship money. 

The fact that I am academically ahead of my peers should be irrelevant, I shouldn't be punished in terms of golf eligibility because I'm advanced in an unrelated category. 

Just a heads up, I would warn you to not insult people here (in reference to your literacy comment). Discussion and debate is encouraged, arguing and name calling is not. 

[hcopenhagenh]

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

You said AJGA events were for juniors to get noticed by college coaches to earn scholarships. 

I am a junior who wants to be noticed by a college coach to potentially earn a spot on the team and scholarship money. 

The fact that I am academically ahead of my peers should be irrelevant, I shouldn't be punished in terms of golf eligibility because I'm advanced in an unrelated category. 

Just a heads up, I would warn you to not insult people here (in reference to your literacy comment). Discussion and debate is encouraged, arguing and name calling is not. 

Once you are in college you are no longer a Junior golfer.  In any world of Junior golf you would be ineligible.  It has nothing to even do with AJGA.  National Tours (Hurricane FCTW, PGA Series), Regional Events, and State events all have the same rule.  It is nothing new.  

You are already in college.  You playing in junior events defeats the purpose of what junior events are.  College coaches care more than just about Junior events.  In fact, they will take more stock in your state Men's Amateur Events, USGA Events, etc.  You need to play AJGA to play at the top rated schools.  I get it because it is a fact.  But, how many AJGA events have you ever played in that actually had college coaches there?  They are usually only at the top events anyway.  There are better Am events to attend to get noticed by schools than AJGA events.  Promise you there are.  In fact, there are better Junior Events as well.  The North South at Pinehurst and the Bubba Conlee have far more college coaches than AJGA events.

I wouldn't even say you are academically ahead of your peers.  It is easy to graduate early.  My daughter can graduate at the end of this school year which is her junior year.  Guess what, she is taking dual enrollment classes at the local CC so she can stay in high school.  Why? Because colleges want her at the end of her Senior year, not her junior year.  Gives her another year of development.

I will add this as well, there is NO Scholarship money for MOST boys.  Division 1 is 4.5 scholarships for a 10 man roster.  On that 10 man roster most of the money is dominated by 3 or 4 guys with the rest getting little to nothing.  Brooks Koepka went to FSU and his scholarship consisted of books.  Division II is a whopping 3.6 scholarships for a 10 man roster.  Goes a little further with them because they can only offer 50%, but most DII schools are also more expensive because they are private.

If you want to play on a college team, contact the coach and try to walk on.

Edited February 15, 2016 by hcopenhagenh

[Pretzel]

40 minutes ago, hcopenhagenh said:

Once you are in college you are no longer a Junior golfer.  In any world of Junior golf you would be ineligible.  It has nothing to even do with AJGA.  National Tours (Hurricane FCTW, PGA Series), Regional Events, and State events all have the same rule.  It is nothing new.  

You are already in college.  You playing in junior events defeats the purpose of what junior events are.  College coaches care more than just about Junior events.  In fact, they will take more stock in your state Men's Amateur Events, USGA Events, etc.  You need to play AJGA to play at the top rated schools.  I get it because it is a fact.  But, how many AJGA events have you ever played in that actually had college coaches there?  They are usually only at the top events anyway.  There are better Am events to attend to get noticed by schools than AJGA events.  Promise you there are.  In fact, there are better Junior Events as well.  The North South at Pinehurst and the Bubba Conlee have far more college coaches than AJGA events.

I wouldn't even say you are academically ahead of your peers.  It is easy to graduate early.  My daughter can graduate at the end of this school year which is her junior year.  Guess what, she is taking dual enrollment classes at the local CC so she can stay in high school.  Why? Because colleges want her at the end of her Senior year, not her junior year.  Gives her another year of development.

I will add this as well, there is NO Scholarship money for MOST boys.  Division 1 is 4.5 scholarships for a 10 man roster.  On that 10 man roster most of the money is dominated by 3 or 4 guys with the rest getting little to nothing.  Brooks Koepka went to FSU and his scholarship consisted of books.  Division II is a whopping 3.6 scholarships for a 10 man roster.  Goes a little further with them because they can only offer 50%, but most DII schools are also more expensive because they are private.

If you want to play on a college team, contact the coach and try to walk on.

Trust me, I understand the logistics of college golf and scholarships. 

I am still, however, a junior golfer. I am not yet 18 years old, I qualify for junior discounts at nearly every golf course, and I am still legally a minor (I can't even sign the lease for my own dorm room).

I am still eligible for a number of other junior golf tours (including the hurricane tour you mentioned, since I emailed the people who run it and they were most receptive and agreed that I am a junior golfer especially since I have not played college golf). I am also eligible for the RMJGT and CJGA, accounting for nearly every junior golf tournament in my area excepting AJGA events. The AJGA is the outlier in this respect, not the norm, in their inflexibility and lack of response to my question to them. 

Academically I would argue I am decently ahead, considering I am currently considered to be a sophomore in college when most kids my age are in either 11th or 12th grade. This is likely a narcissistic viewpoint, but I'm confident that it's a situation not many 17 year olds are in. It's an irrelevant topic, however, considering AJGA rules and the distinction of a junior golfer. 

I understand you disagree with me on the distinction of a junior golfer, but I would posit my definition is more accurate since every junior golf organization I have talked with, excepting the AJGA, has agreed with me. I am still a minor by the legal definition of the word, and I am still looking to be noticed by a college coach to play on the team. I understand perfectly well my odds of getting scholarships and making the team, I am not deluding myself, but I would like to have access to the routes available to everyone else my age who wants to play college golf. That is all. 

I am not asking for preferential treatment. I am asking to be given the same opportunities provided to those of my age when it comes to competing in golf tournaments is all. It's a minor thing, and I can go without AJGA tournaments certainly (as you mentioned, there are other options that I have already been pursuing), but it bugs me nonetheless and I would like for it to change. 

As I mentioned earlier, the way my college's team works is you need to earn the ability to try to walk on via tournament performance. I would like to do this with some AJGA tournaments, but I am unable to due to a silly rule they have implemented (I understand if the person is on a college team not letting them play, but just having attended college disqualifying you is pretty dumb). I can play in other tournaments, but as I said before the AJGA is the best route to be noticed by the particular college coach I would like to be noticed by, to the best of my knowledge.

[phillyk]

9 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Trust me, I understand the logistics of college golf and scholarships. 

I am still, however, a junior golfer. I am not yet 18 years old, I qualify for junior discounts at nearly every golf course, and I am still legally a minor (I can't even sign the lease for my own dorm room).

I am still eligible for a number of other junior golf tours (including the hurricane tour you mentioned, since I emailed the people who run it and they were most receptive and agreed that I am a junior golfer especially since I have not played college golf). I am also eligible for the RMJGT and CJGA, accounting for nearly every junior golf tournament in my area excepting AJGA events. The AJGA is the outlier in this respect, not the norm, in their inflexibility and lack of response to my question to them. 

Academically I would argue I am decently ahead, considering I am currently considered to be a sophomore in college when most kids my age are in either 11th or 12th grade. This is likely a narcissistic viewpoint, but I'm confident that it's a situation not many 17 year olds are in. It's an irrelevant topic, however, considering AJGA rules and the distinction of a junior golfer. 

I understand you disagree with me on the distinction of a junior golfer, but I would posit my definition is more accurate since every junior golf organization I have talked with, excepting the AJGA, has agreed with me. I am still a minor by the legal definition of the word, and I am still looking to be noticed by a college coach to play on the team. I understand perfectly well my odds of getting scholarships and making the team, I am not deluding myself, but I would like to have access to the routes available to everyone else my age who wants to play college golf. That is all. 

I am not asking for preferential treatment. I am asking to be given the same opportunities provided to those of my age when it comes to competing in golf tournaments is all. It's a minor thing, and I can go without AJGA tournaments certainly (as you mentioned, there are other options that I have already been pursuing), but it bugs me nonetheless and I would like for it to change. 

I understand where you are coming from.  I wanted to play in college and it didn't happen.  But, in the end it doesn't matter how you feel about their rules.  They specifically state that it doesn't matter how old you are. Once you start college, you cannot join.  It doesn't matter that your a minor or under 18 or any of it. Once you started college, it was over for you on joining the AJGA.  I'm guessing the reason would be that they are very competitive with who can join, and they must set the line somewhere.  I'm sure you understood all of this and were mainly just ranting, but I think it's time to move on and prove to them and yourself that you can play college golf without having to join the AJGA.

[Pretzel]

53 minutes ago, phillyk said:

I understand where you are coming from.  I wanted to play in college and it didn't happen.  But, in the end it doesn't matter how you feel about their rules.  They specifically state that it doesn't matter how old you are. Once you start college, you cannot join.  It doesn't matter that your a minor or under 18 or any of it. Once you started college, it was over for you on joining the AJGA.  I'm guessing the reason would be that they are very competitive with who can join, and they must set the line somewhere.  I'm sure you understood all of this and were mainly just ranting, but I think it's time to move on and prove to them and yourself that you can play college golf without having to join the AJGA.

I can tell that's where they drew the line in the sand, but it doesn't make it any less stupid of a line to have been drawn in my opinion. It's not a "junior golf tour" at that point, but a "pre-collegiate golf tour". I believe that, based upon their name and their mission to help junior golfers get noticed by college coaches (while making a profit, likely), this line is incorrectly drawn and should be moved. That is all. I don't expect much to come of this thread, but I also don't think that their rule is correct based upon their name and mission.

[hcopenhagenh]

On 2/16/2016 at 7:00 PM, Pretzel said:

I can tell that's where they drew the line in the sand, but it doesn't make it any less stupid of a line to have been drawn in my opinion. It's not a "junior golf tour" at that point, but a "pre-collegiate golf tour". I believe that, based upon their name and their mission to help junior golfers get noticed by college coaches (while making a profit, likely), this line is incorrectly drawn and should be moved. That is all. I don't expect much to come of this thread, but I also don't think that their rule is correct based upon their name and mission.

AJGA is a non profit organization.

I know a 17 year old playing for FAU.  She graduated last year before the winter semester.

Rules are meant for the masses, not one person.

A once famous person said "Tough titty said the kitty, but the milk is still good."

[turtleback]

We understand what the rule IS, the point is that it is ridiculous in this limited case. He is under 18 and does not play for a college golf team. Why should where he goes to school affect his eligibility other than it is an arbitrary rule?  Answer THAT.

All your posturing and blustering has not included one actual reason why someone in his situation should be excluded other than that is what the rule is.  Which we already understood.  The fact that there is no rational WHY that validates the rule in Pretzel's case is WHY the rules suck - which is what his point was,.

 

[Pretzel]

3 hours ago, hcopenhagenh said:

AJGA is a non profit organization.

A non-profit organization still needs to make a profit in order to run, they're just then required to either pay their employees this overhead or donate/use it to further their cause. Considering the AJGA's Executive Director made nearly $400,000 way back in 2009, I would assume the path they choose is the former.

3 hours ago, hcopenhagenh said:

I know a 17 year old playing for FAU.  She graduated last year before the winter semester.

Good for her. Irrelevant to the topic however, especially considering the vast differences in competition between women and men when it comes to golf (high school girls who break 90 are offered scholarships from DII schools: I can break par in tournaments and had one offer from a DII school). The topic is the AJGA, not the people you know who are my age and playing competitive golf or doing well academically.

3 hours ago, hcopenhagenh said:

Rules are meant for the masses, not one person.

Rules are also meant to be changed to accommodate different circumstances. For example, you may look at the ADA laws and their effects, the fact that you can't yell fire in a crowded theater (but can most anywhere else), and, most relevant of all, the fact that there isn't a single other junior golf organization in my area that wasn't fine with me competing as a junior golfer after a brief discussion on the matter.

3 hours ago, hcopenhagenh said:

A once famous person said "Tough titty said the kitty, but the milk is still good."

“[A] quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself, always a laborious business."  -A.A. Milne, If I May

“A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought.” - Dorothy L. Sayers, Gaudy Night

“Be careful--with quotations, you can damn anything.” - André Malraux

My point here is quotes are meaningless in a vast majority of situations outside of writing a literary paper. They prove that a singular famous person might have shared your opinion, assuming the quote was recorded and used correctly, and that means nothing in terms of the strength of an argument. 

I am still genuinely curious as to why you so vehemently disagree that I should be allowed to compete as a junior golfer. If all you knew about me was that I was a 17 year old hoping to play college golf (and knew nothing about my academic standing), would you agree that I should be allowed to compete? What about me currently attending college makes it impossible for me to compete? Will my knowledge of differential equations, circuits, and digital logic give me such a competitive edge that it would be unfair to the others to allow me to play against them? I don't think it makes a lick of difference, but I'm interested in hearing your reasoning as to why it should matter.

[DrvFrShow]

And yes, there are vast differences between young men and young women. I will confirm that about the young women who break 90 getting scholarships to Div II schools, break 80 Div I. Young women who break par at age 17 consider turning pro. 

****

The question here is, how does one affect change? How does one go about getting this rule changed? 

Hypothetically speaking here, I suppose one could work within the system. Or one could simply sign up for an AJGA tournament, play, let the chips fall where they may. What are the consequences when you get caught? 1) It goes public. 2) It draws attention to the rule. 3) You get to make the case for yourself and a potential 15 or 16 year old who could be in the same predicament as you. 4) The AJGA has to defend the absurdity of their rule. 5) You get the reputation for being a s*** stirrer... or a leader depending upon who is reading it. 6) It goes in your permanent record.

Now this is just hypothetical. I'm not advocating any position.

[phillyk]

Mission statement from ajga is for "...Growth and development of young men and women who aspire to earn college golf scholarships through competitive junior golf."

On February 16, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Pretzel said:

I can tell that's where they drew the line in the sand, but it doesn't make it any less stupid of a line to have been drawn in my opinion. It's not a "junior golf tour" at that point, but a "pre-collegiate golf tour". I believe that, based upon their name and their mission to help junior golfers get noticed by college coaches (while making a profit, likely), this line is incorrectly drawn and should be moved. That is all. I don't expect much to come of this thread, but I also don't think that their rule is correct based upon their name and mission.

To me, this rule reinforces their mission. Now i dont agree with this, it intends to be an organization (pre-collegiate as you called it) only for those trying to find a college from high school that take golf seriously. There is no rational/real reason other than that. To them, they might think that because you are already enrolled in college and not golfing, that you may not fit that type of junior golfer to be competitive enough, which isn't their "focus".

Idk, im just trying to come up with a reason.