Today's rule encounter

[Abu3baid]

I had two interesting encounters today playing, one involving myself and the other a playing partner.  I will post the partners another time because I need an illustration, but for mine here it goes.

I hit my second shot next to the green, and I take my third which ends up a too clean of a pitch and it flys the green and ends up on the other side.. I walk over with the other guys to look for it, and someone finds it embedded in the hill covered in mud..  I declare that I will take my next shot from the previous spot under stroke and distance.  As I start walking back one of ten says no you can't do that but you can do what ever you want (as in if you don't want to follow the rules).  I ask them why and they explain that if I want to take an unplayable I have to take the drop from where the ball is, since I found the ball (i.e. It wasn't lost). I told him that I always have the option to replay the ball from the previous spot.

Then another guy says that yeah, you can't go and get a nice spot after being in such a bad area.. So, I told them to look it up, and if I'm wrong then I'll apologize.

I'm pretty sure I was within my rights, what do you guys think?  I ended up hitting 5 to the green and then 2 putting for a triple.. Could have been much worse if I had to play it from the other side though.

[Golfingdad]

You were correct.  Like you said, you can ALWAYS take S&D and replay a shot.

But if it was embedded, couldn't you have lifted it out of there without penalty?

[Abu3baid]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

You were correct.  Like you said, you can ALWAYS take S&D and replay a shot.

But if it was embedded, couldn't you have lifted it out of there without penalty?

Good point, but the likely result of the following shot would have been suspect at best.  Plus, that didn't even cross my mind :)

there really was no where to drop that wouldn't be closer to the hole, maybe I'll take a picture of the area next time.. That option would have saved me a stroke.

[Club Rat]

7 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

But if it was embedded, couldn't you have lifted it out of there without penalty?

Only in closely mowed areas.

 

1 hour ago, Abu3baid said:

I told him that I always have the option to replay the ball from the previous spot.

Yes that is an option allowed.

http://www.usga.org/videos/2015/12/23/rules-of-golf-explained--ball-unplayable-4673728470001.html

 

[DaveP043]

Yet another reason to keep a copy of the rules in the golf bag.  In a case like this, I'd play out the hole, then look up the rule on the next tee.  My new copy of the rules just came from the USGA a couple of weeks ago.

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, Club Rat said:

Only in closely mowed areas.

Unless the Local Rule is in force permitting relief for a ball embedded through the green.

[Abu3baid]

38 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Yet another reason to keep a copy of the rules in the golf bag.  In a case like this, I'd play out the hole, then look up the rule on the next tee.  My new copy of the rules just came from the USGA a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah, but I wouldn't really pull out the rule book and start looking, especially since I wouldn't be able to search fast enough.  I was pretty sure about the rule,  I was just surprised when all three of them were like no you can't do that, and the main reason was that to them I was getting out of dropping my unplayable in a shitty place..  

Why should I if I can just play it back from the same nice spot as before.. Not that the nice spot helped me on the previous shot.  LOL

I was confident enough though to tell them that this was the rule, and they can look it up later :)

[Fourputt]

6 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Yeah, but I wouldn't really pull out the rule book and start looking, especially since I wouldn't be able to search fast enough.  I was pretty sure about the rule,  I was just surprised when all three of them were like no you can't do that, and the main reason was that to them I was getting out of dropping my unplayable in a shitty place..  

Why should I if I can just play it back from the same nice spot as before.. Not that the nice spot helped me on the previous shot.  LOL

I was confident enough though to tell them that this was the rule, and they can look it up later :)

You also had the choice of playing 2 balls under rule 3-3 and then proving to your self-appointed committee afterward that you were right, while still satisfying their need for closure.  If you play with such a group very often, I'd make sure that I was well versed in 3-3.

[Club Rat]

10 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I was confident enough though to tell them that this was the rule, and they can look it up later :)

Then you should trusted your judgment and dropped from the original spot. Your friend only has the option to contest your decision with the head Pro after the round is complete in a friendly game.

I once was confronted on a situation during our stroke play championship where an opponent declared I had broken a rule. I told him what I had done was permissible and if indeed I was incorrect, I would access the penalty to my score. I then challenged him and another player to buying a beer if they were wrong and I would buy if I was wrong. It just happens that an assistant pro was at the next tee and we inquired. The assistant wasn't sure but he also deemed that I was probably wrong to which I wagered a beer on his decision. We played that hole and on the next tee the assistant was waiting and had called the head pro for the decision. He announced that I had not committed any breach of the rules. Right on cue, the beverage cart came pulling up and I ordered three brewski's declaring one would be on the assistant tab and the others on my fellow competitors tabs.
It was a great laugh at that moment and a whole lot of squawking about the beers were never accepted as a wager, blah, blah, blah.....

I just drank my beers with a big smile and rubbed it in a few times as we finished the round.   

 

[Abu3baid]

24 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

You also had the choice of playing 2 balls under rule 3-3 and then proving to your self-appointed committee afterward that you were right, while still satisfying their need for closure.  If you play with such a group very often, I'd make sure that I was well versed in 3-3.

I knew I could have played another ball, however it was a regular round so no need to go through the trouble.. These guys were taking gummies all day (and second putts in general even if they weren't gimmes).  

I don't play with them regularly, but they are in the corp group membership I'm in so I might see them again..  What's going to be funnier is when I explain the other rule issue that came up and how they treated.. Although, I didn't say anything because at the point what does it matter.. I am going to detail it out just for my own knowledge though.

also, do you think it is necessary that I memorize where rules are?  I mean would it have made a difference if I quoted the verse and chapter of the rule to these guys?  It seems like such a basic rule that I can always go back under stroke and distance (unless I'm in a bunker if I remember correctly).  Right?

[David in FL]

51 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Unless the Local Rule is in force permitting relief for a ball embedded through the green.

Yup.  As our own committee, that's one local rule our group always enacts.  

 

[Abu3baid]

3 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Then you should trusted your judgment and dropped from the original spot. Your friend only has the option to contest your decision with the head Pro after the round is complete in a friendly game.

I once was confronted on a situation during our stroke play championship where an opponent declared I had broken a rule. I told him what I had done was permissible and if indeed I was incorrect, I would access the penalty to my score. I then challenged him and another player to buying a beer if they were wrong and I would buy if I was wrong. It just happens that an assistant pro was at the next tee and we inquired. The assistant wasn't sure but he also deemed that I was probably wrong to which I wagered a beer on his decision. We played that hole and on the next tee the assistant was waiting and had called the head pro for the decision. He announced that I had not committed any breach of the rules. Right on cue, the beverage cart came pulling up and I ordered three brewski's declaring one would be on the assistant tab and the others on my fellow competitors tabs.
It was a great laugh at that moment and a whole lot of squawking about the beers were never accepted as a wager, blah, blah, blah.....

I just drank my beers with a big smile and rubbed it in a few times as we finished the round.   

 

I did trust my judgement and dropped at the original spot ;)

[Missouri Swede]

34 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Yeah, but I wouldn't really pull out the rule book and start looking, especially since I wouldn't be able to search fast enough.  I was pretty sure about the rule,  I was just surprised when all three of them were like no you can't do that, and the main reason was that to them I was getting out of dropping my unplayable in a shitty place..  

Why should I if I can just play it back from the same nice spot as before.. Not that the nice spot helped me on the previous shot.  LOL

I was confident enough though to tell them that this was the rule, and they can look it up later :)

Good for you, that you knew the rule and were confident about it!

Just out of curiosity, I timed myself to find the rule.  Opened up the USGA RoG phone app, hit the search button, typed "unplayable," and it found it. Took one minute.  I really like the search feature on the app for stuff like this.

[Abu3baid]

8 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Good for you, that you knew the rule and were confident about it!

Just out of curiosity, I timed myself to find the rule.  Opened up the USGA RoG phone app, hit the search button, typed "unplayable," and it found it. Took one minute.  I really like the search feature on the app for stuff like this.

I had the app before, I will down load again.. You are right, that would make things much simpler for next time.. Thanks..  

[Abu3baid]

ok, so this is the other rule encounter.. He found his ball on the cart path and not OB and his partner have him the good news that since his ball was closer to the left than the OB that he could get relief no closer to the hole.. Then all happy the guy dropped his ball where I marked the star..  

I have several issues with this.  The first is that it is definitely closer to the green.. Second, the NPR would be a drop OB, I drew the line that I believe would be the one where it would be no closer to the green.

my understanding is that his only option would be to go back and play his 3rd from the tee again, or play it off the path.

am I right?

[Missouri Swede]

18 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

ok, so this is the other rule encounter.. He found his ball on the cart path and not OB and his partner have him the good news that since his ball was closer to the left than the OB that he could get relief no closer to the hole.. Then all happy the guy dropped his ball where I marked the star..  

I have several issues with this.  The first is that it is definitely closer to the green.. Second, the NPR would be a drop OB, I drew the line that I believe would be the one where it would be no closer to the green.

my understanding is that his only option would be to go back and play his 3rd from the tee again, or play it off the path.

am I right?

The definition of NPR includes that it is "on the course" (so no, the NPR isn't OB).
It would be a point no closer to the hole (not the green).
So instead of a straight line, it would be along an arc (part of a circle centered around the hole).  The NPR is that one point along that arc where he doesn't have interference from the cart path, closest to where his ball lies.

From what I see, he is allowed relief on the side of the cart path as he dropped (he doesn't need to go back to the tee, and the NPR isn't OB), but he didn't determine the NPR correctly since he dropped closer to the hole than the NPR would be for any possible hole location on that green.

[Abu3baid]

18 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

The definition of NPR includes that it is "on the course" (so no, the NPR isn't OB).
It would be a point no closer to the hole (not the green).
So instead of a straight line, it would be along an arc (part of a circle centered around the hole).  The NPR is that one point along that arc where he doesn't have interference from the cart path, closest to where his ball lies.

From what I see, he is allowed relief on the side of the cart path as he dropped (he doesn't need to go back to the tee, and the NPR isn't OB), but he didn't determine the NPR correctly since he dropped closer to the hole than the NPR would be for any possible hole location on that green.

Thank you for the clarification.. That makes sense.. So, accordingly the two points I marked in red would be the two possible spots, and he would be forced to choose the one below because it is the closest point of relief?  Is that right?

 

[Rulesman]

Apart fro the fact that your circles are not circles and you used the word closest instead of nearest, you are correct. 

Edit. Of course the upper one is not 'possible' in your example.

But if the blue star had been exactly in line with the hole, you may (depending on stance) have had the unusual situation of two 'nearest' points.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Rulesman