A Few Months Later: Stack and Tilt
Posted August 1st, 2007 by Erik J. Barzeski
Stack and Tilt: a fad or a little bit closer to a universal golf truth? We'd like your feedback.
Three simple words - Stack and Tilt - have done about as much to turn the world of golf instruction upside down as anything in recent memory.
It's the move that led the U.S. Open through three rounds this year. It's the move that's led to the resurgence of the careers of a number of pros, including former Masters champ Mike Weir. It's a move pros have been adopting in quantity, and a move amateurs have been adopting with sometimes remarkable success.
It's also been a few months since the Golf Digest article first hit newsstands. I postulated that a lot of the early success amateurs were experiencing was simply a result of a temporary short-circuiting of their brain and that, eventually, the old swing flaws would return. Perhaps that was a bit short-sighted…
My question for the S&T adoptees now is simply this: have your swing flaws returned? Or have you stuck with Stack and Tilt with improved ball-striking and scoring? Post in the comments below.
I scoffed at the Stack and Tilt swing (click the link above for a description) when I first saw it in print. Most of my reaction was due to the horrible "traditional swing" pictures that were displayed alongside the stack-and-tilt swings. "Only a big duffer swings like that!" I thought to myself. I also thought "if Stack and Tilt were so great, someone would have come up with it a long time ago. Tiger would probably be hitting the ball that way, and a bunch more golfers besides Aaron Baddeley would be using it."
After all, when was the last true swing revolution? Hogan's Five Lessons? They don't come around every day, you know.
Without much consideration for Stack and Tilt, and as a long-time self-taught golfer, I've developed a slightly new swing myself this year. I used to pre-set my weight to the right, coil around my spine, and move through on the downswing. My swing worked, but it still required a good amount of timing on the lateral shift to the left in order to make solid contact.
This year, in addition to swinging a bit more upright and standing a bit closer to the ball and taller at address, I've given up on the idea of worrying about my weight shift at all. My swing is now fairly well centered: I simply swing the club back and up by rotating my shoulders, then back down and through, firing the hips through first. My weight shift still exists, but it feels a lot more automatic now. As the club and my body rotate back, my weight naturally moves a little that way. The opposite is true coming down, but until my arms pull my head up to the finish position, I like to feel as though my head stays relatively centered.
In thinking about it, I suppose I've adopted somewhat of a Stack and Tilt swing. Or perhaps I've adopted half of it: Stack. After all, I don't have the dramatic inside takeaway, I don't crush any cans, I don't "pop up," and I don't feel as though I'm leaning one way or another, but I stay centered over the ball and just use rotational force to hit the ball.
I could go on for quite awhile, but I don't want to get away from the central question: If you've taken on the Stack and Tilt swing, how are you doing now, a few months later? Have your old swing flaws returned? Do you have trouble hitting your driver? Are your misses less frequent, more frequent, better, or worse? How's your distance? Is your contact better and more consistent?
Please answer in the comments below.
Photo Credit: © Golf Digest.
Feedback
We'd love to hear from you! Comment below or join the forum.
Expressed opinions are not necessarily the opinions shared by others on The Sand Trap or The Sand Trap itself.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 8:22am #
When I first tried it in June, it was amazing. Low zipping irons that flew about 10% further than normal. I'm a 3 handicap and play half decent normally but the improvement in ball flight was truly astounding. I didn't have quite the same results with the driver but my driving was still very acceptable.
Gradually over time though, that instant success has begun to wane. Probably I have gotten away from some of the S&T fundamentals or even focussed too much on the wrong part of it. Given the instant success (it really was phenomenal) I really would like to stick with it. I tried contacting Bennett and Plummer Golf to see if they could tell me the name of a teacher here in Georgia but alas no response and that for me might be the kicker.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 9:11am #
I'm sort of the the same boat... I read the article and adopted part of that method into my swing. I don't think I do the entire Stack & Tilt but I use quite a bit of that instruction. I now realize I had a swing similar to the one I'm working on now a while back but I thought it was the "wrong" way. But I didn't turn or bring the club inside quite like I am now though. In general, I am hitting my irons a lot better. However, there are days I hit it as good as perhaps I ever have and days I just don't have it. But my misses are becoming a bit less frequent and I'm hitting my irons much more crisply and as a result quite a bit longer. I didn't have the same success with this move with a driver and admittedly swing a little different now with the driver. I shift my weight with a driver and stay centered over the ball (and turn my shoulders and hips) with my irons. What I like the most with this move is when I am doing it right I am hitting my irons long with very little effort.
I think there are a lot of people, pros and amateurs who were publicly critical of this method when it first came out, or when the Golf Digest article was published and now I'm hearing these same people changing their tune a little. Now, I'm not saying these same people are on the range working on the Stack & Tilt but I think they are more open minded and less critical about it and the success it's had on tour and with amateurs.
And as I've said before, even if you don't adopt the entire method I think there is something in that instruction for everyone. Whether it's keeping the weight centered, attacking the golf ball from the inside (taking it back inside could promote a better shoulder turn), or whatever. I think it's worth reading.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 11:56am #
Like most people, the "new theory" placebo effect seems to work on me with almost anything new, but I haven't tried the S&T...
I find the theory amusing. Not saying it can't work, but David Leadbetter was the rage only a few years ago, and he clearly tells people to shift a bit to the right--move off it, load up, etc.--and cites the hanging on the left side as a swing error. Leadbetter could be wrong, too, of course.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 12:49pm #
I found that it's helped my driver more than the irons, but I haven't committed fully to it. I do like the idea of keeping my head centered over the ball, helps with consistency.
The thing that really got me interested was the backswing. I had always liked taking it back inside, and my teacher(s) have always tried to get the motion more straight back. Now I feel vindicated, and more confident that my instincts had merit.
My index is also at a new low, 7.4. The more I play and watch golf the more I'm certain that there are many swings that will work, and each player has to find the one that's best for him.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 12:57pm #
I rejected S&T from the outset because of the same things you mentioned. I even said some people will find temporary success because of the restrictive hip turn the S&T causes on the forward swing...but it would wear off.
Limiting sway in the golf swing is a good thing, but if you don't sway then the S&T swing will start to cause some severe hooks.
It's better to just learn how to balance properly and not some contrived way that's just going to be a temporary resolution.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 2:17pm #
Steve said on July 31, 2007:
In other words, you didn't "take on" the swing. Please do not answer based solely on what you believe to be true. I'm looking for responses from people who have tried it.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 3:18pm #
My Stack and Tilt story:
I am a 10ish index and I was having a bit of a swing "crisis" this spring. My power was gone and my ball flight was way too high. I took a video lesson and found that I was getting very "flippy" at impact. The instructor tried to change my impact position and everything went to hell. I felt like I was starting over again. Needless to say, I was not feeling good about where my summer was headed. That night I came home and found my GD in the mail, and read the S&T article.....
My next range session I have it a try (what did I have to lose?) and I found myself having some success. Impact felt completely different and I was compressing the ball much better. My misses were pretty bad (left and low) but the wild high/ballooning flight I was struggling with was gone. Now, I didn't see great results on the course, mostly because I didn't feel completely comfortable with it. So, I tinkered some more over the next few weeks and as I went I found that I had improved my impact position (just as the instructor had wanted me too) but I was no longer swinging like the article suggested. My swing plane, tempo, style had drifted back to normal but my impact position was vastly improved!
Long story short, I am striking the ball better than ever and my 5 lowest rounds ever have been in the last 2 weeks. Is the stack and tilt for everyone? Absolutely not! However, I think many can learn something by trying it for a couple range sessions.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 3:28pm #
As what seems to be the trend, I tried it and experienced instant positive results....which eventually gave way to disaster.
Initially, it seemed to good to be true, I hit 2 large buckets of range balls that first day and produced some of the best iron shots to ever leave my club. I didn't want to leave the range. My trajectory was a bit lower, very penetrating ball flight with almost pinpoint accuracy. For a 16 handicapper like me, this was heaven. The game seemed easy.
To make a long story short:
This "buzz" lasted approximately 2-3 weeks...then suddenly, it disappeared. I'm not sure what happened, but one day as I arrived at the range with a huge smile on my face because of my new found success, I started hitting some of the worst golf shots possible. Shanks, and lots of them . In my 3 years playing golf I have hit some terrible shots, but never had the shanks. I started bringing the club back WAY inside, then coming over the top on the downswing....and couldn't stop.
Over the next 2 weeks I tried frantically to regain that magic but was never able to, the best I could muster was a terrible hook. I must have re-read the article in Golf Digest 10 times. As the weather warmed and I started playing more golf, my scores suffered, and my back became sore. I eventually dropped the whole idea after about one month.
I can't figure out why it suddenly just bottomed out...some old habits may of crept back into the mix, I'm not sure. Fun while it lasted though.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 4:53pm #
I am no golf pro nor am I close to being one but I would have to say that the stack and tilt worked and works for me. I guess the main reason why it works so well could be because I have always had a problem of keeping my head down and it helps my game and helps my head to stay down. With the new changes I also placed the ball closer to the middle of my stance and due to this my ball striking has improved because I make better contact with the ball first. Lastly it has worked because my overall contact and acceleration towards the ball and past the ball has improved. This is how it has helped me and continues to help me. I can only speak for myself and the faults in my swing so if you have those problems and then try it out for yourself.
PS I have not been coached with the swing, I have read the magazine and seen golf digest and adapted it as close as I could understand it-- I think Im doing it right but it works for me.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 5:20pm #
Erik,
As a working man who plays golf for fun, I have yet to meet anyone who has read more and tried more swing styles than I have. In three years of playing golf, I have brought my score down to mid 80's. However, all those balls I've hit on the range took a toll on my back and left me with a chronic lower back stiffness and a fatalistic view that I'll probabaly never become a single-digit player.
Enter the Stack-and Tilt (SAT)! SAT is essentially a one-plane swing, much like that of Jim Hardy's, which I tried for several months when his article first came out on Golf Digest a couple of years ago (I studied his book like my life depended on it). Hardy's one-plane swing gave me instant power and distance but ultimately led to less consistency and worsening back stiffness. There are two critical elements in "my" interpretation of SAT that I believe have resulted in a swing that is more reliable, more powerful, and less stressful on my back. First, unlike in Hardy's teaching, I allow my left knee to freely turn away from the target, resulting in a greater hip turn and less torque on my lower back. If you keep your weight centered while doing this, you get the reverse pivot, which is dreaded in the conventional swings but is crucial in SAT. Second, SAT requires a true "one-piece-takeaway." The spatial relationship between the upper body and the arms (esp. the left arm) on the coronal and sagital planes (guess my job) remain relatively constant from the set-up to the top of the swing. The only significant, intentional movement of the arms during takeaway is the pronation of the left arm to stay square to the rotating axis of your upper body. From there you just rotate the whole apparatus, pivoting on the inner edge of the left foot. That's it. There may be more to SAT, but I am trying to make my swing simple and stupid so it will work even when I'm not feeling so hot. I get a fade, a power fade. My worst is essentially an excessive fade (slice) or a push, but generally not the "round-killing" vareity.
I have been wating for SAT to disappoint me like the rest of swing techniques that are out there. But it hasn't. My swing is more stable. I moved up from the white to the blue tee box. And most important of all, my back does not worry me anymore (knock on wood)!
Now, I get to work on my short game. Oh, joy!
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 7:23pm #
I wasnt able to see my golf instructor for several months, and my weight shift got so bad, i just stoped shifting my weight and adopted this swing before i relized i had changed to a radical new swing idea. I got back with him abd we are changing it back because although i was hitting it straighter, i lost so much distance it became impossible to compete in high school golf. Good idea, but requires to much core strength and flexibility for most people to get eneugh. I was driving maybe 250-260 with S&T, but at hs tournaments most kids drive it 285-315, making it really hard to go low.
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 8:00pm #
I tried the Stack and Tilt and at first liked it. After a few weeks, I started to hit hooks and fat shots. I became too quick and found myself strangling the club. I could not consistently crush the can under my left heel which avoids the fat shot!
I then went back to my old swing and found myself more centered over the ball with an equal amount of weight on both feet. My backswing became more compact with little to no shift to the right. I am striking the ball better than ever and am finally a single digit handicap!
I praise the Stack and Tilt for showing me the sensation of hitting down on the ball with your weight on your front foot. Everyone except for you sees when you hit off of your back foot.
The S&T pushed me towards a 1 plane swing...Jim Hardy! Best swing thought ever!!!
Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 9:09pm #
There is no doubt in the world this swing works.
When I first read this article I saw a few things in S&T that I was doing in the past but was told were wrong by misinformed coaches. In particluar I was told not to bring the club back inside or to tilt the shoulders. Both of these things felt very natural to me but I eventually got rid of them at the behest of the pro and lost the pure feeling I had. Since trying the S&T I am again hitting pure golf shots with much better strike and flight. My irons in particular are zipping off the face on a slightly drawing trajectory. I find my distance has improved and I am much more consistent.
I sometimes have trouble with hooks with the driver, but overall my driving has improved and again I am hitting draws which lead to longer drives.
Like any swing if you think too much technically over the ball you will freeze up and hit awful shots and S&T is no different. The key is to learn the feel of S&T and not get caught up in technical thoughts.
When I get the feel right I am hitting the ball super with very little effort.
Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 5:50am #
It was only during this year's US Open that I realized what the whole stack and tilt swing was about, after they explained it during the coverage using Baddeley as an example. After seeing this, it brought me back to a few lessons that I was having with a new coach about 12 months ago that I realized he was trying to get me to use S&T. Since having these lessons I halved my handicap [from 9 to 4], and got a start in our pennants team at my local club, so it would be fair to say that the S&T swing help me...Over the past few months I have been struggling with ball striking, probably because I have moved away from the S&T fundamentals without realizing it. Since watching the Open I have been trying to get back to the fundamentals I was been taught, and things have already started improving, so although the S&T philosophy seems strange, and backward compared to the traditional swing methodologies, i think that there is definitely benefits to using adopting it...
Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 2:00pm #
I heard about S&T before the article came out mainly because I believe Mike Weir is a disciple.
Jotted notes from the magazine article and went to the range to try it out. My course has a stall that has a large mirror and that helped me copy what I was seeing in the article.
First feedback was exciting as my irons were hit solidly with more distance and right on target.
Second trip to a different range that had grass tees proved equally gratifying and I was starting to believe.
Men's Night was to be the next test and that was where the good stuff stopped. A tough start proved too much for me to handle and I caved and tried to salvage my round with some kind of hybrid swing. It is a swing that I am still using with increasing success.
I believe what has happened is that in adding a new swing thought to include a shoulder shoulder turn (or stack)
and then go to hips and a transfer to the left seems to work real well right now.
As for the Stack and Tilt, it is tough to change old habits and without someone to advise on a constant basis and without video to acknowledge changes it is only reasonable to expect us hackers to look for another sort of instant gratification.
I applaud those who have stuck with it, made the adjustments needed and are playing well. Swing of the future....mmm ??
Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 6:47pm #
One other thing I should have mentioned. Maybe I'm not employing S&T properly, but I have found that since changing my swing to S&T my back has improved. I have never had any real back issues until late last year when I was starting to get tight and sore at the end of a round and found that after two rounds back to back I would be very stiff and sore for a couple of days. Since using the S&T I have had no stiffness in the back whatsoever. Admittedly I have just become a dad and can only get out once a week at most, but I honestly believe S&T is better for my back, in spite of what you might think from looking at the pictures of the swing with the reverse C finish. I think it might have something to do S&T's compactness and lack of lateral movement.
Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 7:14pm #
I've been doing stack and tilt since the article has come out and overall its been positive. I never slice, and have remeber to weaken my grip when I swing to avoid a hook, but when I do that, I get more distance on my irons and my drives. My fairway woods still need some fine tuning.
One thing to be careful of, if you don't crush the can, the amount torque created in the swing can easilty bring pain to your lower back, or possibly hurt your knee....(but that can happen in a traditional swing anyway.
Posted 02 Aug 2007 at 9:57am #
I have been working on the S & T for about a month now and its starting to get automatic. My fat shots, which plagued me at first w/ s&t, have greatly been reduced and my ball flight is much better.
I find that many of the principles of the s&t are things I did in the past when I was a better player. In HS and college I had a very compact swing, as coaches would always try to get me to get a bigger backs swing. Taking the club back on a slight inside path was another. I'm not sure I'm employing a true s&t but by not allowing my weight to slide back makes me really hit down on the ball.
I was a chronic flipper the last few years. I would get a sore red spot on my fore arm from the butt of the club hitting me after a large bucket of balls. The last few range sessions I have done have resulted in no repeat of the sore spot. That tells me right there that I'm not flipping which is a big win for me.
As far as the driver I center my self at the club head and try to keep my weight centered, good shoulder turn and a more compact swing. When I in a groove I find I'm getting at great ball flight with the shot giving me a nice roll out. Gone is my balloon drives that fall straight out of the sky.
I think the s&t is a simpler swing for me and I hope that keeps me from having bad habits creep into it.
Posted 02 Aug 2007 at 10:00am #
[...] I'm waiting to see how he's able to work the Z in there. The current flavor of the month, the "Stack and Tilt," seems pretty similar to the "one-plane" option of Jim Hardy's method, and both borrow from the [...]
Posted 02 Aug 2007 at 1:23pm #
Long time reader, first time poster, but the S&T topic proved too much to resist. As a range rat, frequent looper, and swing geek, I just had to dabble with the S&T when the GD article came out. As it turns out, some of what it teaches were similar to the one-plane swing I have been working on with my pro for the last couple of years, which I guess isn't really surprising since, to paraphrase someone famous, the ball doesn't know what swing theory you are using, it just knows club path, angle of attack, and face position, and there aren't too many different ways for those elements to work.
I'll leave G.O.L.F. and the Golfing Machine out of this (since I can't understand the countless combinations of levers and angles they identify), but most other swing theories seem to me to be about creating feelings, sensations, or images in the golfer's head that aren't necessarily meant to be taken literally but are intended either to reinforce good habits or, more importantly, get us away from bad ones. In other words, the theories tend to overemphasize their core principles to achieve something not quite as extreme in the actual swing -- the difference between "feel and real."
Keeping yourself more centered over the ball throughout the swing, making the swing more rotational, squaring the club as much with your body as you can, and having the club travel on a similar back and through arc (assuming you have sufficient flexibility and strength to do so) are really "universal fundamentals" that obviously lead to more consistent ball striking.
I'm not sold on the idea of transferring more/most of your weight to your left side on the backswing. If you saw the same super slow motion shots of Baddeley during the US Open, what I saw was a fairly even distribution of weight at address remaining pretty constant throughout the backswing, with an increasing shift to the left side through impact. I would agree that loading up all your weight behind the ball on your right side is it's own kind of problem (because for most of us it usually means that we've swayed back to the outside of our right foot), but I'm not convinced that the solution is 90% of your weight on your left side. I think that as to be more of an "image" intended to keep the weight more balanced on the backswing, limit excessive lower body movement, and tighten the coil between the upper and lower body.
But here is where I see a problem with taking the S&T to its literal extreme. It works great when you have no tension and you can turn your upper body aggressively (i.e., on the range), but I've found it has very little margin for error when you don't (i.e., on the course). Even the slightest shift to the left or holding back of the upper body (which are common occurrences on the course) gets you seriously stuck, which leads to a god awful shot, then more tension, then a less aggressive swing, and so on. I found myself swing (particularly off the tee getting worse as the round went on), and I also found it hard (nigh impossible) to hit that safe 80% drive when your one up on 18 and just need to get the ball in play. Also, I found it harder to hit the little cut with this swing, perhaps for similar reasons.
By contrast, I've found that allowing (but not forcing) myself just a little bit of a shift to the right on the backswing gives me a little more margin for error when you're nervous or not swinging 100% for some reason. I've also rediscovered that reliable little cut off the tee.
So my experience would tell me that, to the extent the S&T has forced me to be more conscious of limiting excessive lower body movement to the right on the backswing -- what I referred to above as the difference between started fairly balanced but allowing some weight shift to the right versus trying to force a weight shift to the right -- it has improved my ball striking with all clubs. However, I've found the "pure" S&T just too difficult to take to the course, which causes me to question whether it is really the swing for everyone (or even most of us) out there. And, by the way, other than Baddeley, you can't really say that the other pros who have moved to the S&T have noticably improved their play.
Posted 02 Aug 2007 at 4:41pm #
This is Erik's article, but reading the comments, it seems to me that two themes emerge:
1. It's not really anything new under the sun...more like a slightly different refrain of the same old song.
2. If you try it, you'll probably see some change for the better, but as for how much, and how lasting, it's anybody's guess.
Posted 03 Aug 2007 at 6:10am #
I never saw this article, but after reading, I realize that I've had something similar to this swing all my golf career. I took lessons at firestone almost 10 years ago, could it be they were teaching this way back then? Either way, this perfectly explains why everyone tells me I have a compact, very steep swing. I use almost no weight transfer, so when I get the ball out 265 off the tee im using hip torque, upper body and club tech to get it out there.
Posted 04 Aug 2007 at 12:02am #
I agree with Bobby D. S&T brought me closer to a one plane swing. After reading the Golf Digest article about a hundred times and researching online (including YouTube swings), I tried it on the range and a couple of rounds. Did wonders for my short and mid irons (I dropped the 4), struggled with my 3 hybrid, woods and driver.
Frustration lead me to take a lesson which totally screwed me up (too much of an inside move, you're getting stuck behind, start down the line, yada yada yada yada)...(Another aside, why is it when you ask a golf pro for help with your woods and driver, they immediate take your 6 iron out and re-work your whole swing?)
Anyway, I went back to Jim Hardy's Plane Truth DVDs and discovered elements of S&T in the one plane swing. I was firmly an inconsistent two planers, worked to make the transition to a flatter swing, and here I am today. I noticed the Jim said Hogan employed a slight forward tilt at times and he was cool with it.
I'm much more consistent now, actually calling shots. Currently an 18, dropping fast. I noticed I've kept some of the S&T aspects to help my game now; shorter back swing, slight tilt during backswing (55% of weight on the front foot, 45% on the back), straight back leg.) When I want to really hit down on the ball, I lean hard on my front foot.
I won't over think it, seems to work for me. The one thing I won't forget from the S&T is that feeling of compressing the ball for the first time.
I convinced it's a legitimate technique. We all have aspects of OPS, 2PS, and S&T in our swings. Take what works, leave what don't, get on with your life and play golf.
Posted 07 Aug 2007 at 4:32pm #
I thought it was time to express my appreciation to Plummer and Bennett for giving us the Stack and Tilt swing. It has greatly improved my game in the last couple of months. I am a 60 year old golfer, golfing for about 6 years stuck in the high 90s. I have read many many books, watched DVDs and taken a few lessons in pursuit of the modern golf swing. From the minute I read the first Golf Digest article in June I thought this was the swing for me. My history is that I constantly fight a slice and was inconsistent off the fairway with irons and woods (fats and tops). I had resorted to a flat, connected very rotational swing with a very strong grip to straighten things out. However no matter how hard I have tried, I have had major problems shifting my weight from right to left leaving me hitting weak balloon balls off my back foot with a tendency to leak to the right.
Stack and Tilt seemed to be the answer --- just start with more weight on the left side and keep sending more left. I was already doing most of the rest ie. biceps glued to rib cage and rotational swing. I just needed to get stacked and stay stacked with a bit of left tilt.
My first day at the range was unbelievable. I was finally hitting down on the ball with my weight forward. I immediately achieved a lower more piercing ball flight and gained about 10 yards with each club. In addition I could grip the club with a very neutral grip instead of my old super strong grip. I am overjoyed with this swing. I have continued to practice and play with improved results. In two months with stack and tilt I am now scoring in the high 80s which is a drop of 10 strokes. This is great for me.
I have pretty much done just as the article said for irons and my hybrid club and modified it just a bit for woods and driver. For driver I tee it up off my left heel, a bit lower than before, then my swing thought is to keep my arms and hands low and close to my body and just try to keep my head in place right over the ball. (not as much shoulder tilt to the left as with the irons just full shoulder turn with head over ball and increasing weight to the left side)
Finally a thank you to all the contributors in this column for the tips especially with the driver. These columns are really the major source of information on this swing.
Posted 08 Aug 2007 at 8:57pm #
I am a golf pro in Australia who is 32 years old and my weakness has always been my ballstriking. I stayed faithful to my teacher for many years trying to get my weight onto my right side, turning down onto my right knee, and then turn violently through the ball. Restrict the hip turn, feel tight and wide at the top. Man, I felt like I was doing everything except swing the golf club. It just felt tight, uncomfortable and I was hitting it shorter and worse than ever. However, I kept telling myself that this teacher knew what he was on about, I had to keep stretching so I could get into the positions etc.
I started the Stack & Tilt once I saw it on the web. Being an Aaron Baddeley fan, it was a no brainer to try it. And since my ball striking was so poor, I had nothing to lose. I experienced a lot of success with it straight away but not with every shot. Then I started hitting it awesome on the range and not on the course, and now slowly it is there for me on the course as well. Even when I have a bad day I know that this way to swing the club is the way for me. When I am on, the strike is absolutely pure and super accurate. I have played a few rounds over the last month where some of my ballstriking has been phenomenal. The pro I did my traineeship under, said once that you know you are hitting the ball good when you impress yourself with your own strike and ballflight. This is what is happening.
Interestingly, I have always been very much a golfing traditionalist. I have always putted in the style of Ben Crenshaw, short game in the vogue of Seve, and these parts of my game have always been outstanding. I have a tape of Ben Hogan which I watched with some friends a couple of years ago, and we were all saying how he looked like he reverse pivoted. Of course he just stayed on the ball. And Johnny Miller whose ballstriking was always staggering at time, seemed to me to dip into the ball with a steep shoulder turn and big hip turn as well.
I also remembered how about 7 years ago I was hitting the ball great, and what I was noticing was I felt like I was lifting up and to the right of the ball through impact. I hit the ball great but convinced myself that doing so was wrong because that isn't what the modern guys do.
At the US Open this year I noticed that even Tiger doen't move off the ball anymore. He did when he was with Butch, but not now with Hank.
This "Stack and Tilt" thing has cleared up a lot of things for me. It works for me, and I feel now that I have a second wind for my career as a tour pro. Where I was thinking I was a 32 year old guy, I now feel 10 years younger ready to go out there and flush it.
Posted 09 Aug 2007 at 8:12am #
Reading all of these comments got me thinking&hellilp; I went over some of my old instruction notes I've taken through the years (yes, I'm that obsessive about golf), as well as some of my instruction books.
One theme that came up in my earliest live instruction was that the pro thought my pivot move was out of sync. I either shifted the weight too much, ending up swaying off the ball, or reverse-pivoted. I remembered him saying something like "you can have a no-weight-shift swing, that's ok...Hubert Green does. But whatever you do, you have to get weight on your left foot through impact to be able to catch the ball crisp."
So I went out to my course last night and tried keeping my head much more still, and keeping the pivot a bit more quiet. At first it felt like a reverse pivot, but as I did it more what I realized was that rather than my weight shifting to the ball of my right foot about 80% going back - as I had been doing most of this season - the weight was remaining centered in the middle of my body, but shifting from the balls of both feet at address to the left toe/right heel combination at the top.
It took a while to be able to make a confident swipe this way, but the results were as remarkable as everyone talks about. I picked up a club's length of distance that I'd lost in recent weeks, and was definitely hitting the ball more cleanly.
Fairway woods off the deck are a good indicator of how you're striking it, and I tried a few. My favorite was on one of our par 5s. I've reached it once this year, in the spring with hard fairways. Last night the course was wet from the rain and I carried a 3 wood 220 off the fairway to hit the green in two, and two putted for birdie.
I wasn't thinking "stack and tilt," since I wasn't trying to take the club inside, or straighten my leg, or arch my back, or crush a can, or whatever. Just modified my pivot to keep my weight where it was established at address, and the results were good.
I think the nut of Stack and Tilt is just that - keeping your weight from wandering off line.
Keeping a "steady head" was once dogma in golf teaching, and I wonder if, like all golf lessons, it was overdone by a generation of recreational players. This lead to a common problem of true reverse-pivoting, and prompted a new generation of teachers telling us to go ahead and let the head move right a little, "move off it," "load up," etc. Now, this is being over done, and "stack and tilt" is moving us back to a greater emphasis on keeping the pivot anchored a bit more.
Posted 09 Aug 2007 at 11:59am #
When you think about how us hackers search out and are inundated with golf swing analysis. It is obvious that 9 out of 10 of those analyses are with a pro golfer using the driver. We hardly ever see a side by side comparison of let’s say Tiger’s tee shot or long shot swing and his 6 iron swing. Now as we hackers try to emulate that over analyzed driver swing which when performed properly actually strikes on a slightly ascending blow and therefore bottoms out just slightly behind the ball. Now, use that swing in a less than perfect lie with a 5 iron in your hands and then wonder why you tend to hit fat or toe dug pulls and/or hooks. Anyway, I am convinced that if we did see more mid and short iron analysis, it would be obvious that many pros use a modified swing to pinch their irons. I do recall often watching the pros in tournaments, Retief Gooosen, Cory Pavin comes to mind, and thinking how much they look like they are leaning on their left foot in their backswing on par 3 or iron shots. I am a 10 handicapper and have a conventional swing, loading into the right side and struggle with pulls, hooks, and fat shots with the mid and short irons. It never made sense why I hit my driver and fairway woods and long irons consistently clean but tend to overcook the irons until now. For my “conventional swing†the shallower approach of the club is great for the driver and long shots, but tends to cause toe digs or closed club face, or a combination of both on shorter clubs. I tried the S&T with a small bucket and 7 and 5 irons and did not hit one fat shot. In fact to my amazement I actually pushed a few dead right. Amazing because I generally have to aim right to pull and draw an iron to the target. I am going to keep my long shot swing for the long shots and work on the S&T for short and mid irons. I really don’t see any problem using both swings. I always used a form of S&T with pitches, wedge approach shots anyway. It just never dawned on me to use it for 5,6,7 irons. With a few more practice buckets I am hoping to get down to single digit handicap yet this year.
Posted 10 Aug 2007 at 12:30am #
I'm using it and am hitting the ball really well. Some of the folks have said that they are shanking a few shots. That's bacause for the first time they are probably approaching the ball from the inside. My impact position has moved from the middle to toe (almost all amateurs live out there), to middle to hosel. It's a powerful hit, but if you get sloppy in your stance or ball position, you can hit those. It's the better players miss. Enjoy them, your hitting the ball better. Finally, I would love to actually get some lessons from someone so I know if I'm even in some of the positons. HDCP is 3, but I'm looking to go lower. I think this is the swing to do it with.
Posted 14 Aug 2007 at 12:02am #
I've been using the S&T for a couple of months now. I dont get much time to practice but try and play 9 holes every Sat. Morning. I've played since I was 12 or so and have been as low as a 4 (was a 7 or so most of the time). When I got older (almost 50) and couldnt play alot my scoring suffered.
The S&T is tremendous in that it greatly simplifies the golf swing and creates a much more repeatable action. If we go along the Jim hardy line then its possible that it benifits one plane golfers and hampers those who intuitivly two plane swingers. Where its made the biggest difference for me is in the scoring clubs. anything from a 7 iron in (about 172 yds for me) is almost always inside 30 ft...this is a marked improvement. I havent missed a green in 2 months inside 170 except for hitting a few over the green. My short game still suffers from lack of practice/play but my ball striking is much improved.
To me the single biggest key is focusing on the right shoulder/hip turning back up and "over" the left. If your shoulder turn isnt steep enough your not really getting either stacked or tilted.... After that focus is on the little "forward lean" you see in the article at the top. That sets up the "reverse" tilt of the spine as you drive the hips forward.
I'm still amazed at how consistant the ball strking is. On par threes I use a little stub tee and my divot starts an inch in front of the tee...literally I'm driving down thru the ball and either leaving the tee of litterally hitting the top of it and driving it into the ground.
Whats funny is I grew up playing the S&T at 12-14. My dads favorite golfer was Sam Snead and he had a very Snead like swing. So I grew up playing very much over the ball (and was a 4 by 14) then as the "new swing" took over I went to the two plane swing. The moment I swung the S&T the light went on...1st S&T swing I took I hit the 175 sign at local range on the fly with a 7 iron....
Do I still hit bad shot sure...all the time. But the "bad" swings are 300% better and the good swings are lasers. Before if I drove the ball well I'd miss 1/2 the greens or more with the scoring clubs. I felt like I needed to get to wedge distance. Now I'm converting almost all my good drives to G.I.R. and when I hit a poor drive its less of an issue...and I'm converting more of those back to pars since I can just punch out and hit a wedge to close range....
Posted 15 Aug 2007 at 4:30pm #
I am on Day 2 of implementing Stack and Tilt as my new swing. I was hesitant early in the season when Golf Digest published their article about it, but when article 2 of Golf Digest appeared I decided to give it a full fledged try. I am a dedicated practicer and have gone through many swing changes before. My previous swing was built from a Leadbetter student and when it's working I can hit the ball with phenomenal power and accuracy. There inlies my problem, my swing would betray me far too often. Maybe it was me, who knows but I am a frustrated 10 handicapper and feel that my enjoyment of the game is in severe jeopardy due to errant tee shots. Honestly, my driver and long clubs never became reliable even when I practised tons. I feel like putting this in a blog about Stack and Tilt but this will do fine.
Day 1 of Stack and Tilt - Decided to actually commit to the swing through thick and thin. I have given myself to the end of 2008 season to make it work
Day 2 - Hit a range basket over lunch. Honestly, this swing is the real deal as far as I'm concerned. I can understand guys not liking it but from a repeatability and simplistic point of view this swing is excellent. I hit a couple rough shots but nothing I haven't seen before with my other swing. Basically the shots when struck well are just as good if not better than with my conventional swing. My misses were fades to power fades but I feel like it was lack of execution on the hip release. The good shots are powerful tight draws that travel a long way. I've always hit the ball high so the trajectory lower for me is more like I see on many other players. This swing feels so far inside on the back but I just commit and look at the divot after and arguing with mechanics seems pretty pointless. The divots are perfect and as a person who struggled with sliding my hips I feel like I could unwind them as fast and vigorously as I want to using Stack and Tilt, in fact I think it's encouraged by what I've seen. I don't practice/play everyday being a family man and working so my swing needs to be repeatable with layoffs in between. Stack and Tilt feels very natural to me and the positions are pretty easy to get to. Did I hit a bad shot or two? Sure, but no more than my conventional swing after 3 years of trying and with some work I can imagine the misses will go down just as they did when I made changes to my conventional swing.
One other thing that amazes me about this swing is how easy it is to implement even without instruction, I'm sure with instuction I'd execute it even better but I'm not complaining with the execution to this point that's for sure.
Honestly I think that lots of people don't want the swing to work otherwise it would mean what they've been doing for x number of years might be called into question. I just finished watching a match play round between the #1 Canadian Amateur seed and the #64 Canadian Amateur seed and 5 holes into sudden death it was abundantly clear that two very different swings can create good results. The underdog had a consistent one plane swing and the #1 seed has a conventional 2 plane swing. Both guys are good but repeatability is the key. Oh and putting.
The #1 seed player did win the match, and he was a better ball striker but it wasn't the runaway people thought it would be.
Anyway, I'll update my success or failures on the swing as I'm not shy about either.
Posted 16 Aug 2007 at 4:27pm #
I'm a sucker for new swing methods so I tried the S&T for a short time after this article came out but abandoned it a few weeks later.
I've always had big sway off the ball problem in my back swing and the S&T did train me how to stay centered in my stance more. I ended up going to a more basic half swing after I got used the quiet lower body with no sway. I guess the S&T acted as a training exercise for me so for that I'm grateful.
Posted 17 Aug 2007 at 10:22am #
i didn't make a full conversion to S&T since I already had a very front-heavy swing, but i have seen several of my playing partners improve dramatically.
I think the biggest advantage of this swing is that it promotes good balance. Guys who i have seen who are alway off-balance finish their swings balance. As a result, contact is more consistant and much straighter. As a result, instead of worry about weight shift, they just worry about firing down the target line.
Posted 17 Aug 2007 at 7:52pm #
I tried the S&T right after the first article came out. My ball striking improved immediately. I now consistently hit all my clubs straighter, and more consistently. Everything about my swing feels more dependable. The way I described it to a friend is that now all I have to do is let the club come down to the ball. I have become so consistent that I have had to move the ball about an inch closer to the hosel of the club (almost dead center) at address because my swing has become so true.
I am a true believer in the swing. I got a bit away from it for a few rounds and my ball striking and scoring were just awful. I reread the article and went back to what I was doing. It is a 10 stroke difference for me. I am a 20 handicap.
I recommend it to anyone who doesn't have a swing in which they are confident.
Posted 19 Aug 2007 at 3:01am #
Ive been swinging this way for three years and playing great in events. People said for the last two, are you doing that one plane thing? Nope, Morad stuff. Now its out in the open.
Posted 20 Aug 2007 at 2:15pm #
I've been doing S&T now seriously for about 1 week and honestly this swing is a solid movement, way more repeatable than my previous swing, which was a conventional 2 plane weight shift swing.
With S&T I am my misses are sometimes surprisingly good. I tried this swing earlier in the season with a half hearted attempt but was talked out of it for various non fact based reasons. I am fully committed to S&T and that mindset has helped me be successful with it right away. I don't feel like I'm ready to revert back to conventional when I hit a bad shot. I'm not a tour player by any means but when my conventional swing was working it worked fantastic but it would come and go like the wind, classic inconsistency. This swing seems so much easier for me to repeat sometimes I surprise myself with the results. Distance hasn't been compromised at all with this swing, which was a concern and when I hit it purely I'm confident my distance has increased slightly with S&T. I was always fairly proficient distance wise with my old swing but direction was the problem when timing wasn't on like a Swiss Watch. I am feeling that S&T will be a repeatable move even after some layoffs based on how easy it was for me to adopt to begin with. I also feel like there is nothing to lose by trying this swing as it's not so weird that if you REALLY wanted to go back after trying it for awhile you could, its' not that radical in my mind.
With how inside the takeaway feels and where the hands get on the backswing I look down at how square and solid my divots are and you really can't argue with the results. Anybody that doesn't like the look of it is obviously just basing that opinion on comparison to what is now conventional swing theory, not actual experience with S&T.
If you aren't happy with your consistency I say this swing is worth a try, nothing to lose in fact you may just be surprised at how straight you hit it. Once you get over the fact that you have wasted so many rounds struggling with a weight shift swing you'll no doubt love Stack and Tilt.
Oh and the hip move to me feels like a sinful pleasure as it's almost exactly what you're not supposed to do in a conventional swing but in S&T it's required.
Posted 21 Aug 2007 at 4:42pm #
I think this might be what I have been searching for. The initial results have been amazing.
For those of us that want to hit the ball hard and relish a long hit ball this takes the weight shift out of the equation.
For me, trying to co-ordinate the weight shift was a task that I could not master given the time that I had to practice.
I hit the ball much more solidly with less to think about.
Posted 27 Aug 2007 at 2:54pm #
It is pretty basic really. I started the season as a 6.6 index, didn't sniff breaking 80 from March through June, was a human ATM in our nassaus, and shot 94 (my high round in 8 years) in a club championship qualifying round, driving my index up to 8.9 at the end of June. Around that time, I read the initial GolfDigest article and took it to the range. The range results were instantaneous (took about 3 weeks for it to "stick" on the course, playing 2x per week, hitting balls 2x per week), and I haven't looked back since. 2 weeks ago, I had a few hiccups, and got back to basics (hands inside, no head movement, straighten the right leg, etc.), which was the fix. My last 6 rounds have been 73, 75, 76, 77, 76, 78 and my index is down to 4.7, trending lower. No back pain, no knee pain, and if this is still the honeymoon period, then it's been a great one.
Hal
P.S. - Stan Utley's short-game and putting books should be sub-titled "Stack and Tilt for the Short Game" and have also contributed greatly to the improvement.
Posted 29 Aug 2007 at 10:15am #
I have tried S&T on the range and found it works really well.My problem has always been too much lateral movement and hitting the ball thin with no decending blow.I find that I can hit down on the ball much better, take a nice divot and hear the ball 'fizz' as it leaves the clubhead.
Results on the course have not been as good but will take time.
I will stick at it.
Posted 29 Aug 2007 at 10:54am #
Hi. Am quite an old guy (67) and a really"bad" golfer. Moreover I don't like and don't do competition or tournament. For me golf is like Mark Twain was used to say: a nice walk slightly annoyed by the presence of a ball... I like stroll, talk, smoke, smile and, yes, play also. Got the point?
I first played at 53, 14 years ago, and never been able to do better than handicap 28.
I got several lessons for years, then stopped and went on self-taught. Golf was a mistery to me, even though I am an engineer.
It happened to me to see the Golf Digest article on Internet early July: being so bad I thought that Stack and Tile was worthwile to try. Impossible to worsen my game, I guessed!
So I studied it a whole night on the paper, then tried it at the course the following morning.
Guys! After only ONE bucket of balls I began doing something completely new for me. Good irons, straights strokes, and even not bed woods, including the Drive.
Now, after one month, I won several friendly contests at my club and have decided to try, early Sptember, a serious tournament. My average tour is improved by 8 to 10 strokes, and , curiously, my pitching and putting also.
Not satisfied, I searched other references on Internet and found that probably the famous Mike Austin (515 yards at 64!) was precisely playing that way.
Only (hope temporary) disadvantage: my left arm has started to ache near the elbow after the first nine holes.
Thank you for attention.
Good greetings from Italy!
Riccardo
Posted 31 Aug 2007 at 3:29pm #
I just started using Stack anf Tilt. I was able to go to the range yesterday and was a bit skeptical at first. After hitting a few balls, I must say that the sensation of not shifting your weight to the back foot was a bit ackward. But after 10 or 15 balls the new technique started feeling okay. Let me tell you, the difference was noticeable. I was flying my irons around 5 yards longer than what I usually carry them. I tried the swing with all the clubs in my bag. With the exception of the driver (still have to work on it), the balls were flying with a penetrating trajectory. I must mention that you absolutely have to make sure to release your hips through impact, if not your swing will be steep and you'll take a huge divot before you hit the ball. It's working for me so I'm saying that it's a keeper. I have to take it to the course, but yesterday's session left me impressed. I've always been a fan of things which break molds and are untraditional. Just because everyone subscribes to a particular method, doesn't mean that something which is different is wrong. Long live Stack and Tilt!
Posted 01 Sep 2007 at 6:10pm #
I was very interested in what Badds was doing with his golf swing because it just looked so solid and sweet! So I jumped headfirst into the stack and tilt method when it was first published.
I am a former mini tour pro and have always been a great driver of the ball but my iron play always was lacking the consistency I knew I needed to compete at the higher levels. Now I smack the back of the ball and take sweet divots most of the time! Ball flight is very predictable and the sound is sweet. Real compression is what it is. The fat and thin are virtually eliminated. After a couple of weeks of really drilling on the S&T I took it to the course and I have been having some amazing ball striking rounds. At first it was a bit dodgy with the driver and fairway woods, couldn't seem to hit it high enough but with some more practice(mostly done indoors) I have been driving it DEAD STRAIGHT! Seriously folks I believe this to be the real deal as I have tried many things and have received instruction from a number of top 100 teachers.
If I had been using this method earlier I am quite sure I would still be competing today. I believe this to be a true innovation and a fairly maintenance free way to enjoy golf for the rest of your life! If anyone has contact information on how to get in touch with the Bennet/Plummer camp I would certainly appreciate it. I hope this helps you who are considering trying this method out or are questioning whether to stick it out.
Now somebody just let me know when the stack and tilt for putting comes out!
Posted 01 Sep 2007 at 7:54pm #
Thanks for this posting site! So many of the posted comments are just what I have experienced since trying it since May - I am a 6 index and my biggest problem was too much of a weight shift. I already have a natural inside path swing. On days when my timing was on, no prob, but on bad timing days, look out - lots of pushes and, less so, hooks. I believe my swing is the perfect candidate for the SAT. Using its features, especially with the irons, really keeps me centered on the ball. The driver, as many have commented, is a little trickier, but so long as I keep the swing smooth, it works fine, and even the mishits aren't so bad. I have not been able to play as often as I would like, and with the SAT, the reduced weight shift takes the pressure off trying to get my timing just right. Thanks to the post about checking out Stan Utley for using SAT features on the short game. And as for putting, "SAT"-like ideas have been around for a long time - keep your weight primarily on the left side throughout the putting stroke!
Posted 04 Sep 2007 at 1:19pm #
Played another round on the weekend using Stack and Tilt. The comfort on the course is really starting to come around. I am hitting my driver and 3 wood as solidly as I've ever hit a golf ball. I'm hitting my driver over 300 yards using this swing and the ball is going straight or with a tight draw. I've hit a couple hooks and a few pushes but nothing that put me out of play, just in the rough.
Although I don't want to, I must admit a few issues. I've had a little trouble figuring out sand shots with S&T but it's mainly a comfort issue and lack of practice. The other thing is I've noticed some left forearm soreness the next day when I rotate my hand clockwise to full rotation with my arm hanging my my side. I cannot figure out what is causing it, I was thinking it was my excercises but my round on Sunday locked it in as something with the golf swing. It doesn't cause any pain or discomfort at all anywhere in my swing and it only feels sore 12 hours later or when I wake up the next morning.
Is this just my forearm muscles getting worked in a way they haven't in the past or has anybody else experienced this issue? It's possible I'm doing something incorrectly, but the results I'm getting from ball flight make me think I'm pretty close with S&T.
Posted 07 Sep 2007 at 4:25am #
After experimenting with stack and tilt for a week,I can only say the results have been very good...finally I can take the club back inside (where it;s always felt comfortable to me !!) and make a confident downswing and follow through not having to worry about proper weigh
t transfer..and the occasional dreaded S----- !!
Haven't taken it to the course yet,but so far I cannot believe how much farther I'm hitting the irons,with seemingly less effort !!! The driver is next in line for the range..I'm anxious to see the results and will share them with you once the verdict is in...but so far I'm sold on S&T.....
Posted 09 Sep 2007 at 12:07am #
As I've aged, somewhat ungracefully, I've found myself suffering from a terrible sway. I just took up golf about 10 years ago and despite lessons and practice I never shot below 90.
I had reached the point of having to keep my lower body almost completely still, no forward knee motion at all and very little hip movement in order to hit the ball cleanly. I decided to switch to a flatter swing which was starting to help this spring. Then along came the S&T, I started about 6 weeks ago, since then have shot as low as 84 and now plan on shooting below 90 every time I go out. This works, I find I don't really have to push down with my front foot as much as some make out, even for an old non-athletic fart you get much crisper shots. The only clubs I haven't seen much difference with is my fairway woods, yesterday I hit 14 fairways, and three of the four par 4's. My ball flight, which was previously low and weak, is now medium high and with a slight draw 90% of the time. Distance is also improving every week as I get used to the swing and gain confidence in it.
Posted 10 Sep 2007 at 10:46pm #
Like Erik in the article at the top, I Stack, but I don't tilt. The difference in my ball-striking with the irons and hybrids has been amazing. I simply shift my weight a little bit forward in the setup, before taking the club back. There is still some slight weight shift toward the back, but not enough to leave me stuck there, which is what always happened before. The result: better contact and more distance with less effort. Consistently. I'm a high handicapper, and I tried this on my own, without even having read about the Stack & Tilt swing. I was just tired of erratic shots, and tired of trying to remember a dozen different swing details.
I knew from looking at videos that my weight wasn't coming forward until way too late, but I couldn't figure out what to do about it. I finally decided that I should start out with it forward and forget about trying to shift it. I didn't even try it at the practice range first. I just started playing this way. The first time out I scored a new Personal Best--and that's with a lot of very bad drives. It took me a while to figure out that this wasn't working for me with the driver or other woods. On reflection, the reason is simple enough. The Stack facilitates a downward contact on the ball, which is ideal for the irons and hybrids, but not the woods. With the woods I simply attempt to stay centered over the ball, and that works much better.
Again I have to emphasize that if you Stack but don't tilt, when you take the club back there has to be some shift of the center of gravity toward the rear; it's impossible for there not to be. But the Stack minimizes it, making it so much easier to turn the hip into the swing and contact the ball in the center, instead of toward the toe.
I find this method to be by far less of a strain on my body (I'm 54), for the simple reason that I don't swing as hard. I don't have to.
Posted 15 Sep 2007 at 8:54pm #
Stack and Tilt has changed my golf game. Started 3 months ago at a 5.6 hdcp and have dropped to a 2.8 and will be dropping again next month. Played a string of 45 holes under par playing in a tourney.
My short irons are automatic, my 3 wood is incredible. I'm still working on my mid to long irons. They are a bit inconsistent. My Driver was always strong and remains strong but feel like I have lost about 5 yrds of the tee. Still....I just amazed by the results. I'm still tweaking it a bit, but I can tell you, my only swing thought is 60% weight on the front foot and I fire thru. You gotta stick with this and keep tweaking. My body cannot move like Baddeley's and cannot twist like him so I will never get pro distance, but I can fire bullets at the pin. I just wish someone could help me putt.
Posted 17 Sep 2007 at 12:14pm #
Continuing to have success with Stack and Tilt. My driver and 3 wood have never been more accurate. I find it interesting TM talks about not tilting, I find that when I don't tilt is when I start to have issues with the swing. My experience has shown me that I need to trust the tilt and all parts of the swing. I also agree that the left leg action doesn't need to be performed as aggresively as described in the instruction articles. It doesn't hurt to do it aggressively but not required. I think that is clear with Baddeley's swing.
I still have some inconsistency with my 3 iron and 4 iron on the course, I can make them work but I haven't got them as consistent as I like.
Posted 18 Sep 2007 at 5:53pm #
I've been working on the S & T for the past few weeks. Best iron shots ever. I've fought through some of the same problems that some of you have mentioned, i.e. playing well at first with this swing and then having everything go south. I found that it easy to get in the habit of not getting your hips involved enough in the swing. "crushing the can" didn't register with me. However, my though now is to get my left hip out of the way on the downswing. This accomplishes the same thing and has made my play more consistent. Hope this helps.
Posted 24 Sep 2007 at 12:57pm #
S&T worked for me from the beginning (when the article came out) and is working better than ever today. It seems like a much more natural way to achieve rotational movement than does the more current weight-shift style of thinking. My iron play is much better--length has increased, hooks and slices are gone--and I feel more like I am swinging vs. hitting at the ball. The hand flipping handsiness in my swing has also been largely eliminated. For the driver, my consistency is greatly improved. One comment with the driver: a slight less exaggerated S&T gives the best results. Overall, I think the central concept of centering oneself over the ball can work for a lot of people and I would think it is easier to teach than the more complicated weight shift methodology.
Posted 25 Sep 2007 at 2:16pm #
nice postings guys!
just over two weeks ago one of my scramble playing partners who is a 5 HC was doing this contorted looking swing, unlike anything I had seen him do before!... I asked him what in tar he was doing, and he replied he was trying something he saw in an old (for him) issue of GD... I asked why and he said that it was the swing that Weir had gone to cuz it was easier on his back and allowed him to swing easier... BINGO!... lights went off in my head!... I've played with a separated rib problem over the past 4 years that at times makes it impossible to play through even with copious amounts of Ibu and Robax Platinum... then last year I developed sciatica and have had 3 bouts with that since last October... practising at the range is not much of an option mostly due to the pain in the ribs... with my traditional swing the pain generally started about 1/3 of the way back... a full turn was not an option... through all this i have been as low as 5.9 HC but this summer both conditions had me bumping closer to 10 HC and I could see no relief in site...
until 2 weeks ago... it was a scramble so we had time on the tees and my bud explained everything he knew about SaT... and suggested I try it out at the range... range be d%mned... I was going to try it out then and there... and proceeded to hit more, better iron shots than I had in the previous injury riddled months... I was enthused to say the least...
that week I went out and using the version that I had been taught by my bud and after viewing what I could online hit more range balls than I had all summer... last week the same... I have now played more pain free rounds of golf in the past 2 weeks since switching to SaT than in the previous 4 weeks...
In a nutshell:
I am hitting longer by a club to a club and a half
i am hitting controllable draws
I am hitting straighter
I can make a pain free _full_ turn
I can hit long irons
I can now hit a driver using SaT
on the topic of the driver: at first this was very ackward... it felt as if I was about to pound the driver head into the ground and was actually forcing me to swing over the top with this longer club... no such problem with the shorter 4 wood... so I compensated, rightly or wrongly by gripping down on the driver to the same length that a 4 wood would be... bingo again... by gripping down 2 - 3" I am able to make a full SaT swing and am now
hitting the driver on average 20 yards further than before... even with gripping down 3" at times!!! contact us absolutely solid... very solid last night with a first time trial of the new TM Burner!
have approached our ass't pro about tutelage in this swing but he isn't a big fan... to his credit though he said that he would look into the swing and perhaps help me out by observing... I'm willing to be his guinea pig cuz a trained set of eyes is what I really need right now... on sunday I was nailing the par 3's... hit all five with furthest shot being 15' away... too bad I can't putt right now, cuz I'm hitting more greens in regulation than ever before...
so is SaT for me... you bet... who wants to play with pain!?
for those experiencing pain with SaT I would suggest either taping yourself or have someone look at you to determine if what you are doing is not what you are thinking you are doing... cuz the version I'm trying out is the best swing I've tried for playing pain free golf
Posted 28 Sep 2007 at 9:52am #
well, where do we start? Having read so much about SAT and just returned from my first practice session using this method I am still slightly sceptical. For starters it's a completely different feel. Lucky for those who get results with it straightaway but in my case it ain't going to happen overnight. However, and this is where my initial scepticism gives way to a more positive attitude, I feel I just need, desperately want a swing that is going to get rid of my horrible loop with all the attendant moving parts. I hit a bucket of 60 balls and after a while realized how tighter, shorter and overall more compact my swing felt. This could be a golfing epiphany for me. More balls next week so watch this space.
By the way, is there anybody in the London area who teaches this method?
Robin (Surrey, England )
Posted 01 Oct 2007 at 5:05pm #
Erik, about 5 or 6 rounds and 2 or 3 months later, all I can say is Stack/Tilt works for me. The beauty of it all is I just react now. I just swing the club. I can tell I stress less over the ball and am probably holding the grip lighter because of it. It feels very natural to me. I've never struck the golf ball like this in the 15 years that I've played this game. A repeatable downward strike on the ball which produces a piercing flight.
I don't ever foresee myself going back to the "conventional" swing.
One note, as other eluded I was shanking the ball at first. I say I stand about 2 inches further away from the ball, compared to the conventional swing.
Posted 10 Oct 2007 at 9:54pm #
I first read The Impact Zone before reading about SAT. It worked great for me improving impact but still having inconsistent results since Clampette's swing is traditional (weight shift to the right on backswing). SAT pulled it all together with basic moves you are all aware of. Thanks for many good suggestions on the driver.
Posted 20 Oct 2007 at 11:44am #
Wow, great feedback for this article. And for the lack of weight shift and more inside takeaway, it's on the way to Moe Norman's swing. The evolution of the golf swing continues...
Posted 20 Oct 2007 at 2:44pm #
I started playing with S&T when it came out in Golf Digest this year. My handicap has gone from 10 to 5 and the only times I shoot in the 80's is when I've had a horrible short game day. It works for me.
Posted 06 Nov 2007 at 10:06pm #
Posted 08 Nov 2007 at 4:40pm #
I cannot tell you how thrilled I am with Stack and Tilt. I have cut an average of ten strokes per round off of my last twelve rounds.This is simple, now I'm hitting the ball close to center on three out of four shots.Gaining the feel for S/T is easier than traditional methods, but you do have to stay in tune with the basics or old habits will begin to creep up on you,i.e.a neutral/gentle grip,arms held firm to your chest, shorter backswing, backswing more around the body. This is not just a hip drive or a tilt and jump swing, it is not a violent swing ; EVERYTHING must happen rythmically and together. The thing that I missed at first was, the micro-second that the shoulders must be square to the ball at impact. My non-professional opinon is that if a person begins to snap a hook, they are not shifting their weight from the front foot to " more " on the
front foot. Instead they hitting from a shift to the back foot (right foot for right handers). My confidence to do what I want with a shot has improved so much ( for me)! What a gift for those of us who don't want to spend the rest of our golf -lives in frustration
Posted 11 Nov 2007 at 6:30pm #
Paul (8 Nov) has it right. Stack and tilt works when you follow the basics correctly. First you have to keep from moving your head in and out or forward and aft and your weight must stay forward. When ever I start to hit hooks rather than draws, I concentrate on slowing down my back swing, keeping my head over the ball, and keeping my weigh from shifting back to my right foot (I am right handed). Keeping smooth helps. I have to smile when I read notes from the folks that have tried Stack and Tilt for a few days or weeks and then decided that the idea has no merit. Pros like Tiger take months to master changes in their swings. They have instructors working with them daily. They have exception physical skills. Those of us attempting to take up the Stack and Tilt swing need to be patient and we need to work on it at the range. I am scoring better with Stack and Tilt and when I make errors they are usually not as serious. More important, when I make an error, I know pretty much what I did wrong. I hope to see more articles in Golf Digest that deal with specific problems Stack and Tilters are encountering. I am sticking with Stack and Tilt.
Posted 16 Nov 2007 at 7:32am #
I used S&T from the very first time I read about it in Golf Digest. I can believe how I hit the ball now, I'm a club longer and very straight.
I came in for a bit of stick from mates who said that S&T doesn't work, but after they have seen my scores improve they are starting to ask questions.
Posted 22 Nov 2007 at 4:21am #
I am a 6 handicaper. When I read the article Stack & Tilt and saw the pictures, I had no interest in it at all. The pictures looked terrible and I said that I would never swing like that. But for some reason, I just tried it while I was playing. It worked fine and that made me want to learn more about it.
I have been using this Stack and Tilt for 3 months. But what I do is, I stack but not tilt. I hit more solid and hit at the sweet spot most of the times. It works fine for irons and driver.
I have introduced this Stack & Tilt to many of my friends. Most of them success in improving their ball striking, and of course, improve their score.
It is something that golfers should try.
Posted 23 Nov 2007 at 9:00pm #
Been working for me ever since the GD article came out. Although as with some of the guys around here, I have seemed to stray abit from the concepts lately.
Posted 29 Nov 2007 at 11:40am #
My season for entering scores for a handicap has ended for three months. I have been between a 12 and 14 for the last three years. I started with the S&T this summer and immediately improved my distance. I moved from a 12 from last year to a summer 14 and down to an 11 handicap since I began the S&T. My problem is still short irons and greens in regulation. I am playing the best golf of my ten years and at 56 and working full time, only retirement will enable me to put more time into the game. My goal is single digit handicap. I hope the S&T will do it for me next year.
Posted 03 Dec 2007 at 1:54pm #
I'm with Polbatarra. I use the stack, but not the tilt. I'm a half way decent player, a 7, but my main problem has always been striking the ball solidly. I could tell the issue was timing, coming back into the ball. If my timing was good that day, I played well. If not, well, I didn't.
But with the "stack" at least, I stay much more centered over the ball and am able to strike it much more cleanly.
Also, I always tended to have a low ball flight because of a slightly shut club face on the backswing and a strong movement (almost lateral) to the ball which resulted in me sweeping more than striking down.
Now, I strike down on the ball more and, as a consequence, the ball has a much better/higher ball flight.
Posted 03 Dec 2007 at 2:57pm #
S&T worked for me! I have been using for 4 months and have consistently lowered my scores and contributed to a double eagle last week. I only wish there were local instructors in the Phonix area to fine tune the swing.
Posted 03 Dec 2007 at 7:12pm #
Read about S & T in Golf Digest and found the video on the Golf Digest website. I am a 12 and this swing worked on the driving range the very first time I tried it and has worked wonders for my consistency and length on the golf course. I even had an eagle after a long drive and straight 2 iron to about 4 feet. It's been a long time since I've been this excited about a swing change (it's really a whole new swing).
I've even tried it from the bunkers. It seems to make a much more shallow divot, making it easier to get the ball out.
Does anyone know how I can find S&T instructor in northern Virginia??? The pros I've talked to about the S&T all pooh-pooh it. But it works for me, so I'd like to take some lessons and see how to improve even more.
Posted 04 Dec 2007 at 7:09am #
I didn't want to write about this swing because I was afraid the magic would disappear, but what the heck.
I tried SAT a month ago. It immediately cured my fat shots, which I have tried to cure since I took up golf without success. The swing relieves you of all the baggage and bits and pieces you tend to accumulate. I now make it a point not to read any new golf tips and shows on tv about golf swings in case I fall into that trap again. To cut the story short - I now hit every green I look at when I have a six iron or less in my hands. Everything is just automatic! And all this from just reading a magazine article...
Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 5:33pm #
After reading the artical I decided to give S&T a try. After a couple days on the range my ball striking and my distance improved. This swing also help to combat my dreaded slice and immediatley cured my fat shots as well. There is one issue I have not work out yet. My swing path is a little outside to in with a square club face. I'm pulling shots to the left, solid contact just to the left. Anybody got any suggestion are drills on how to get the club inside. I love the swing my drives explode off the tee just some are to far left. I shoot in the 90,s . I'm
from Texas can't find a instructer thats familure with S&T in the Dallas area.
Posted 19 Dec 2007 at 4:15pm #
Whilst on a golfing holiday in SA I happened to read GD and about S&T. 2 one hourly practise sessions later I took it to the course in Mauritius and promptly won the Caddies scramble hitting unbelievable shots, and our team finished on -7. I was hooked as they say! I have been a single figure handicap for over 25 years and have never produced the quality of shots as I have done since trying S&T. My only reservation is that since returning to the UK I seem to have suffered a dip in being consistent, as I see from reading some of the reports others have suffered in the same way. What I would like to ask WMOLAW is when he says he just stacks, but not tilts, how much of it does he employ? Does he put 60% of his weight on his left side in the backswing, and does he come inside as they tell you to do? I think this is a great site to air this debate, keep it going, I am determined to make S&T work for me!
Posted 27 Dec 2007 at 2:09pm #
I was using s/t one day at the range in Buffalo a few weeks ago and didnt really know it. I was hitting my 6 iron, which i have shied away from, straight, high, with noticeably more zip and much, much more compression! I remembered Lee Trevino saying he learned on hard pan and compression was a must. I emulated this by hitting off the hard part of the mat where you usually stand. I could feel the compression and the ball was gone!! Teachers criticize it but do they realize by saying it will wreck your body. Rubbish! I'm only a 3 year, 54 yr. old player shooting in the high 90's but when a system works it works. did we learn the shift to the back foot to alleviate pain or evade injuiry? NO it was because we thought that was the only correct way to learn. So using s/t allows weight to compress the ball on iron shots and thats the key. Works on my hybrids except the 2 hybrid, needs work. Works on woods for me with less weight on the front, more like 55/45, and you must sweep the woods back more instead of a steep takeaway. this assures a flat swing into impact while still keeping the head over the ball. for iron shots this is a godsend!!
Posted 06 Jan 2008 at 9:08am #
Like other posts I had read I had used a variation of the S&T a while ago actually before my County Tournament. The day before i was so frustrated I just kept hitting balls until I found something that would work, and what I found was setting my weight slightly forward and keeping it there and then turning hard out of the way worked well. Anyways, long story short I shot a 76 in the tourney and missed a playoff because I three putted two of the last three holes so I know that this swing can/will work. I think the key element to the S&T is being able to consistently fire your hips which can be a problem for some higher handicaps.
When the article came out I knew this sounded familiar and tried it again. Like others I liked the lower ball flight and crisper feeling irons. I tried it for a little while but after talks with my pro I decided it was worth going it on my own.
Because of college I haven't played in a good while and probably wont again until May and when I do I think I may just think with the S&T. I have complete confidence that if you don't have time to practice enough to time a weight shift, this swing will be a more consistent ball striking swing. Two biggest faults I would see people falling into. Make sure you don't turn this swing into a reverse pivot (start neutral/slightly forward and then shift backwards) and like I said before fire those hips. Good Luck to all
Posted 09 Jan 2008 at 2:50pm #
First off, the theories/origination of the swing did not want it to be called stack and tilt. Stacked is a position in the golf swing while one maintains the proper tilts. This golf swing is a science and has been tested, SO IT WORKS. For all those people out there that have tried it, you cannot simply look at some photographs on the web site and think you can take on this approach. I learned this swing when i was 15 years old and I am now 22, and still have flaws. The problem is there are very limited amount of teachers who teach the swing this approach let alone know enough to talk about it. If anyone has ever met Mike Bennett, who has made this swing a science, would be extremely impressed.
Posted 10 Jan 2008 at 4:37pm #
Fellow Golfers, like most if not all of you, I'm just a simple human being who loves golf & looks for impovement at all times. Trust me, when I say, I'm a 8hcp, sway in the back swing, flying right elbow thus cupped left wrist and long back swing..All in all Nightmare in London, but the short game saves me....Someone intoduced me to a Teacher, close collague to Mac Grady..after the 1st lesson he intoduced me to this method, meaning I'm now rotating on the axis (as it should be).I don't feel it's a reverse pivot, as I feel I'm leaning towards the ball NOT towards the target...and now I can stop the hands at 9 o'clock position quite easy, just to find my way to this new method. What has changed dramatically, is COMPRESSION on the ball !!! proper golf shots..End of the day, there are different swings for everyone. You have to find what suits you....and that requires experimenting..Go for it.
Posted 20 Jan 2008 at 4:31pm #
My guy started working on this before the article came out, don't know where he got it from. Thought he was crazy. I can tell you that it does leave me for a week or more sometimes but when it does it is usually because I have gotten to long or my turn is too flat. Lengthening the swing causes a lift before the hips can clear. If either of these happens you have no chance. My only complaint is that my 3 iron is now too low trajectory wise for summertime hard greens. My driver needed to come down somewhat. When it works it is longer, straiter and lower(a good thing for me) throughout the bag. It even helped my partial length pitches!
Posted 28 Jan 2008 at 10:50pm #
I was playing golf at Cape Schanck in Melbourne Australia. They had some old Golf Digest magazines for sale for only $2.50 so I bought Aug and Sept 07. Had never heard of S&T before that. My h/cap usually 13-15, left handed aged 43, golfing regularly for about 8 years.Wanted to move to the next level. First time I tried it I flushed heaps, although score was 5 over h/cap. Next two rounds had 81 and 79 (incl 12 pars!) on par 72 courses. The 79 was the best ball striking round I've ever played. Its easy to lose it during a round but stick to basics and it comes back. Keep head dead still and weight slightly forward during backswing. Then just hit the ball. I sometimes swing with my shoulders thus pull/push ball, but if I keep my elbows tight it helps. Contact better than I could ever believe. I hope it keeps going, club champs next month. I've never enjoyed golf more than right at this moment....Right now, I'm certainly a convert!
Posted 29 Jan 2008 at 4:49pm #
Stack and Tilt 2; What a godsend!! Still using it at the range as its winter here (Buffalo NY) and no apparent chance of a warmup to play... Hitting irons very, very crisply from 5 iron to wedges. I have never hit irons as well and its a joy to practice them, even bought new ones!! Even doing flop shots off a hard surface. To my surprise I'm hitting my woods better then ever!! I can feel a definite pinch on the ball and would probably take a small divot judging by the feel. That pinch on the woods sends the ball out faster, higher, and straight. The same translates to all my hybrids from 29 to 17 degrees; I can hear and feel the pinch and the ball rockets on a penetrating trajectory. The driver needs some work, but i think thats mostly due to a new club with a longer shaft length than i am used to. The important thing is iron compression on the ball, and consistency with all clubs in the bag. Also much less soreness in the back compared to conventional setup. What a joy!! Cant wait to take it to the course!!
Posted 06 Feb 2008 at 9:56pm #
Stack and tilt seems pretty good, but it is alot like the old theory of swinging inside a barrel, I think it will cause some back pain eventually, oh and by the way has anybody asked Jimmy Ballard aka swing and sway with sammy k.
Posted 07 Feb 2008 at 12:23pm #
I thought it was time for me to comment again. I began the S&T in July with good success. By October I was at my lowest handicapp ever, 11. In the winter season I got sloppy, stopped straightening my right leg and lost some consistency. I bought myself Stan Utley's short game book for Christmas and decided to revamp my chipping and pitching which was good but I need an extra stroke from somewhere to make it to a 9 handicapp. I am erratic now, 39 - 47 on par 72 on my first with the new short game, but as I get the consistency, I expect to make my 9 handicapp.
Posted 08 Feb 2008 at 1:32am #
I first learned about the S&T through a friend early in the summer of 07. Through weeks of practice and head games I put on myself I finally committed to the change. Within a couple of months I had the best ball striking round I can remember. I remember coming away from that round understanding how sub 70 feels. Lately my downswing has gotten out of sorts and subsequently have been (sorry to mention the word) shanking it. Go figure. Nothing in golf is perfected, we all know this too well that's why we play, but this swing has the least moving parts of any method I know of. Efficiency leads ultimately to consistency, and that ladies and gentlemen is the key to a better game (provided that consistency is in the right direction).
Posted 09 Feb 2008 at 1:48pm #
RE: Consistency and pain; As with any changes with a swing sometimes it will work better then other times. for that matter thats the game of golf! I have been having great practice sessions especially with my irons. My ball compression with irons has dramatically improved resulting in more boring trajectories and straighter. Last week with my new game improvement irons, which are much heavier then my old irons, i started smothering the ball. I had to adjust my hip angles as i was getting lazy and not bending at the hips. Would of probably happened using any method as a fundamental is omitted and problems arise. Once i corrected that it was back to success again. Yesterday's practice started good as always with wedges, and started smothering the ball again with 8 iron and longer. This time the adjustment was a flatter backswing with irons 8-5 (3 and 4 are hybrids). Since I am hitting down on the ball, I dont need such a steep backswing to try and get compression. Again once the correction was made back to good compression. I am very happy with my hybrid play; high straight, good pinch at impact, with reduced hooks. (Have to remember to play the 3 and 4 hybrids like a 5 iron and not like a 5 or 3 wood) As for pain I practice once a week, minimum of 3 large buckets (450+ balls), and less pain then before s/t!! No knee pain either, just the usual stiffness for a flexible 54 year old!! PS; keep your head behind the ball for the driver, and you will still sweep it off the tee!!
Posted 11 Feb 2008 at 9:16pm #
Just found the article here as I was doing some golf reading(winter golf trip is coming up so coming out of hibernation here).
My story is very much like what seems to be a common theme. My golf swing was all over the place. So when I read the article I was intrigued. It seemed so simple that it might just work.
I went to the range and for the next few days I was like a kid at christmas. I couldn't believe some of the iron ots I made at the range. That crisp clean contact and straight penetrating ballflight was something I had never seen before. My old shots used to fly through the air like lazy lobs. This new ballflight was like a plane taking off. Pushing straight thru the air.
I was shocked at how well it worked and couldn't wait to tell my golf partner about it. I decided I ws going to give it a serious try. Over the next couple of rounds and range sessions I had some driver issues. So I eventually left the driver in my trunk and played an all iron game. My plan was to commit the swing to muscle memory and then learn at adapting to the swing with longer clubs.
However, as the summer went on my story turned the same as many others. The magic just dissapeared. Oh I'd hit some beauts once in awhile but for the most part it was gone.
Then one day I was at the range about a quarter of the way thru my bucket. It had been a terrible struggle to try an find that "initial high" I had when I first tried it. But luckily like magic it appeared again.
Over time I had been using the swing. But as I became more and more comfortable with it I started doing other things. Mainly I started swinging at the ball instead of "uncoiling". When I was swinging at it and making contact I was creaming my irons. I would tee off with a 6-iron and ould be putting my tee shots up with most peoples drivers(I don't play with exceptionally long hitters but 225yd 6-irons were not unusual).
So on the range something changed and all of a sudden I relaxd and found the swing again. Keeping the body stacked over the ball. Not swinging with the arms and starting the downswing by pushing off the left leg. But not how I was before. Before I was more popping up off my left leg and that was a problem. The magic came back when I relaxed, coiled over the ball, and then simply stood up and let the club whip itself back around. Crisp clean straight contact again.
Of course a few weeks later I was struggling to find the magic again. But it's there. Heading off to SC for a week shortly and plan on using the S&T while I'm there. I'm am truly curious if it's going to be a mess because I haven't golfed in 4 months. Or perhaps it will be magic again because I will be back to the swing basics and not my mutilated version.
Posted 12 Feb 2008 at 2:20am #
I am 63, and have played the game for over 50 years. During my entire career at this game - high school and college competitive golf and 40+ years as a recreational player - I have struggled with a too-inside swing path. On a good day, I would enjoy a nice, controllable draw. On a bad day, when the club gets stuck behind me, I would fight a snap hook or a big block to the right all day. Not a fun way to play the game. So, I was most intrigued when the hype started on the Stack and Tilt. I have worked with it, and have some observations that might help others. It stopped my hook cold, and while some days have been great, other days have been absolutely terrible. I think I've finally figured out why.
The huge majority of amateurs, including myself, have the tendency to hit AT the ball instead of swinging THROUGH it. With the conventional swing you can get away with this tendency some of the time, but with the S&T, hitting AT the ball and not finishing the swing is the kiss of death.
The Stack & Tilt swing requires a very aggressive move through the ball. If you have CONTACT as your primary goal, and sort of "quit" after impact, the results will usually be disastrous. You can take your time on the backswing, but on the downswing, that "stand up" move with the left leg has to be very aggressive, and your goal has to be not to "hit" the ball, but to swing through it aggressively and get to the finish position as quickly and smoothly as possible (watch Tiger Woods). If you're wishy-washy with the left leg stand-up move, and think the job is done after impact, you'll hit some of the butt-ugliest shots you've ever seen. Been there; done that.
I still walk the course, even though I'm getting to be an old man, and I've noticed my best ball striking with the S&T comes early in the round. As I get tired, and the left leg loses the strength to stand up and throw the left hip up and around (which whips the club through the hitting area), my ball striking absolutely goes to hell. It's not uncommon for me to play the first nine with the S&T swing, then finish the round with my old swing that doesn't require as much work. Bottom line, the Stack & Tilt swing is not meant for the lazy golfer. It takes some work, and for me, it's almost more work than it's worth.
By the way, I attended a seminar recently with the teacher/club fitter at the Taylor Made Performance Lab in Portland, OR. He is now an "authorized" teacher of the S&T swing, and he said that Tiger Woods' swing is VERY close to the Stack & Tilt swing. If you watch him, you'll see that coming down he has that little "squat" like Sam Snead had, and coming out of that squat he "stands up" very aggressively with the left leg which whips the club through impact and into the finish. The downswing move especially is classic S&T.
I like the Stack & Tilt swing, but my opinion is that it might be best suited to the young and strong player. I like the results I see, but it requires more work than I am able to sustain over an 18 hole round. Oh, to be young again...
Posted 13 Feb 2008 at 7:33am #
Its nice to hear an experienced golfer try the technique and provide feed back. YES Tiger does squat during his swing especially his driver swing. RE: young legs and swinging the club; I have found (at the range only, snowing here now!) that if I get lazy with my wrist cock, the club does not follow my body through the shot. Also the stand up move becomes more of a slide, which produces acceptable results but not as much pop as the stand up. Thats probably true of any iron swing. After trying this swing and especially with the driver i have noticed the critical part is the hips/legs. If they fire first the swing becomes easier and more fluid. When i get a chance to play in the spring i will definitely warm up as much as possible (especially when you have to pay $35.00 or more to play!) to get the lower body active. I'ma very flexible 54 years old, and i think the s/t can work for us "seniors"!
Posted 13 Feb 2008 at 12:45pm #
Ron, you're exactly right...the hips and legs are the key to making a successful Stack & Tilt swing. I've noticed that when I am fresh and can really stand up aggressively with the left leg, which propels the hips up and around, I am hardly even aware of the club whipping through impact. If the left leg and hips do their job properly, the actual swinging of the club is almost effortless. That's what I like about the swing. I have experimented extensively, and what works best for me is a fairly short, flat backswing, elbows kept close together, left arm staying tight to the rib cage and not lifting up and away from the body. It's a tight and compact swing, propelled almost exclusively by the left leg and hip. I love the way it feels, and for the most part, I really like the results. It has straightened out the hook that I fought for 50 years.
But, I have found that the move with the left leg and hips takes its toll on an old man. I played 9 holes yesterday, and when I finished, the pain in my left knee told me it didn't like what I'd been doing to it. So I don't know...I'll probably keep stacking and tilting as much as my body will let me, and when it yells too loudly, I'll go back to my old swing. It doesn't work as well, but it lets me play pain-free...
Posted 14 Feb 2008 at 1:35pm #
Started using the S&T at the range both mats and grass during these past winter months. I'm a 16 HC struggling the constant push. After some lessons this past summer, nothing helped. The S&T has allowed me to hit the ball much straighter about 10 yards longer. Now if I fail to get my hips up and turned, I'll push it. Great feedback for me. I'm hoping to get my HC down to the 10-12 range by mid spring. Last round was 13 over on a 45 degree day with 15 mph wind.
Posted 15 Feb 2008 at 9:48pm #
In a nutshell, I've used SAT for about 6 months and have never played better. It seems to have corrected my one big problem: inconsistent weight shift. I'm playing the ball off my left heel on all full shots and, for the first time ever, am making solid contact on every shot. Over the past three years I've adopted a one plane swing and SAT seems to fit it perfectly. "Zen Golf" has helped, too. I'm sold on the technique.
Posted 16 Feb 2008 at 10:06pm #
I somewhat share the thoughts of LarryB. I am 73, 6'2",195lb and have also been playing for over 50 years. I started with Hogan, but never got it. My # has been 14-16. After I read the first article, I went to the course and hit 30 wedge shots. 29 divots were in front of the ball, straight and half on the green 100 yds. I had never hit an iron that consistently before. I started to use it last spring and all season long. (I live in a northern state) I qualified in a club tournament that I hadn't even played in for 25 years. I finished the season with an 11 handicap. My irons were the best part of the process with drives the shakiest with a lower ball flight and a little less distance. I'm going to try a 10.5 driver this spring. But a serious problem developed. Before the second article came out I was playing a round and on a tee shot a sever pain shot through my right thigh (I am right handed). I fell to the ground not knowing what had happened. Eventually my whole upper let turned black with a sever mussel strain and six months later still has some soreness. I now think I did not shift any weight to the left side. In other words, I forgot about the left side factor on that one swing.
Posted 29 Feb 2008 at 10:05am #
I am absolutely sold on the S/T swing method. I have been fighting a terminal case of the " hooks " for three years. It got so bad that I resorted to hitting a big cut on purpose, just to keep the ball in play. My handicap went from 1 to 7( I know, "poor baby" ) I was really frustrated with how I was striking the ball. I read a web based article that said that the S/T was a cure for the hooks, so I tried it and the first 10 drives I hit were beautiful little fades or dead straight and after four months and several buckets of balls, my misses now are to the right instead of the big snapper. I am 56 years old and have been playing golf since age 13. I don't agree that it takes more effort to make this move, however it did take some effort to get rid of the old swing and ingrain the S/T. I find that my misses happen when I try to give it more effort. I no longer fear the tee box and my wedge play has improved tremendously. Thank you Bennett and Plummer.
Posted 03 Mar 2008 at 3:05pm #
The problem with S&T is that it endorses the current notion that the swing bottom MUST be forward of the ball, as if that's the only way to play the game.
The ideal impact is to have the swing bottom exactly at the point that the ball touches the ground. S&T is just one more way of saying that if you reduce the probability of error #1, you'll produce a better score. And it's true.
For a while.
After a bit, that swing bottom that was at the "ideal" four inches in front of the ball starts to move even further, the shot quality deteriorates, and you have to adjust.
This happens with any swing, but now your mind is conditioned to make one kind of error, and you've gotten away from the physical -- and psychophysical -- ideal.
Posted 03 Mar 2008 at 5:29pm #
"After a bit, that swing bottom that was at the "ideal" four inches in front of the ball starts to move even further, the shot quality deteriorates, and you have to adjust."
Nat i dont know if you are saying ST is good or bad by your comments but its like anything else thats not executed properly; conventional, st, etc. I can say that not being a great iron player last year, i expect to be much better this year due to S/T and being able to compress the ball and not "wood swinging" with irons. BUT i had my 1st bad practice session this weekend. I could not hit the ball especially with my irons. Some of it was me (actually all of it!) as I could hit the driver consistently on the sweet spot. It seems i was coming in too steep with my irons and either topping or severely slicing the ball. I went to the range on invite two days later and had the same problem. I suspect the problem was my lower body and not my swing that much. I will try again Friday and hopefully i can get back to the progress i had started...
Posted 03 Mar 2008 at 9:42pm #
Huh??? Wha??? On what planet is the perfect iron NOT struck with the divot beginning after the ball. And the idea of 4 inches, where did that come from? I'm sorry, but if I introduced "psychophysical"
into my swing I would be messed up. My spell check did not even like that word.
Posted 19 Mar 2008 at 9:10pm #
I started working on this almost 2 years ago and my instructor and I had no idea it was called stack and tilt. Despite limited play and practice, I am striking the ball better than ever. It keeps getting better. Matt Williams at Debordieu in SC teaches this well.
Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 8:55am #
40 years ago I was told to strike the ball first with a descending blow to impart backspin to the ball, never was I told that the ideal bottom position was where the ball rested on the ground, and I can't find the "4 inch" thing in any of the S&T instuction that I've read. I still believe that this is a good way for the weekend golfer and the beginner to play golf. I believe less can go wrong because there are fewer moving parts and S&T helps you stay over the ball and make solid contact.
Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 9:30pm #
Much to my golf pro's dismay I have stuck with Stack and Tilt since last spring. Before switching to ST my big miss was hitting the ball fat and/or spinning out with my hips. With ST I now know what it is like to make ball first contact and what it feels like to hit it pure. I recommend this swing to anyone who wants a simple move that is very repeatable. Overtime I have had to watch how much I allow my left knee (right handed golfer) to bend in my backswing (in other words over doing it). Focusing on not allowing my head to move left limits this. ST puts the focus on exploding up through the shot by straightening my left leg (I did not say standing up loosing all of my spine tilt). This move limits how much my hips spin and allows me to feel like I am covering the ball through the shot. The result is ball first contact. All you nay sayers should give it a try before you bash it...
Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 10:44am #
March 26, 2008
I spent the last couple of months of 07 season committing to trying the S&T.
The full irons PW, SP, LW, 9,8,7,6, immediately gained a club in length and ability to hold the greens and remain good this year. (Got to keep those hands ahead at impact.)
I had mild success with the driver and have improved it in 08.
The main improvement in 08 is in the 7 & 5 woods (I don't use a 3 wood, because my driver is a Nicklaus 15% due to slower swing speed. I'm nailing them like I haven't in over 5 years. I had pretty much given up on them.
Sand and partial wedges need work, especially the Lob wedge, which I use for many shots. I adhere to the Pelz system and have had success and can't quite "square" the two methods yet for partial shots.
I'm 59 yrs old and used to shoot 90 on my home course (par 70). It was steadily nearer to 80 after the change including an all time low of 75. This is with the same set of fitted Zevo clubs from 10 years ago, except for the driver.
Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 10:48am #
My comment about hands ahead at impact was meant for the driver, but I inserted it with the wrong paragraph. Sorry.
On the wedges, a full swing always works well, but I can't seem to back off of a full swing for partial lengths like the Pelz dead hands swing.
Posted 11 Apr 2008 at 12:06am #
Noticed Badd's swing last year at the open at how easy and compact it looked but had no idea about the S&T. Read the article later and decided to try.
I have a exteneded backswing with fast hips (lot of working parts) and if my timing in off, I have to grind the round away. this swing is great because it has shortened my backswing and still allows for my fast hips. Shots are crips and long. Long irons took awhile but the driver I have modified the swing abit. If I swing easy and fluid (no strangling or tightening), it works great.
Posted 15 Apr 2008 at 4:44pm #
I guess you could say I'm also a half stacker. I read the article last summer and tried the S&T. It worked for a couple rounds but as soon as I started to struggle I gave up on it. Over the winter I worked with Paul Wilson's Swing Machine method. It has given me huge improvement, but something wasn't clicking. About a month ago, I decided to combine the S&T and the Swing Machine swings. At setup, I load 60 on the front and 40 on the back. I try to hold this as I coil the upper body. I uncoil from the hips first. The torque is fantastic. Contact has never been more consistent and I'm finally breaking 80 again. I use the same swing driver through wedge, only changing the setup slightly.
Every swing should be unique. The best method is whatever works for that indvidual.
Posted 17 Apr 2008 at 3:33pm #
I've been using the stack and tilt since early January. I've been playing golf properly at a club for two years now and I'm 46 yrs old. For the first year I was playing well (self taught-got down to 18 handicap) then I had a 6 lesson package for Christmas off the wife. The pro said I was swinging with a reverse pivot and basically changed everything I did. The result was awful golf and my handicap suffering. When I read the S&T artical it was a eurika moment. I had been doing the S&T before the pro got his hands on me. I'm now swinging without thinking and playing really well.
Posted 18 Apr 2008 at 9:35am #
My second entry in this thread...
After a lot of trial and error, including lessons, it was homemade video that showed me what was going on. My weight would roll onto the outside edge of my right foot in the backswing, and from there I just couldn't get back until it was too late. No instructor ever noticed this, unfortunately, but I finally spotted it after studying my own videos. So I made a point of trying to keep the weight on the inside of the right foot. This, I discovered, isn't so easy. But with more trial and error, I found that the slight forward shift of weight in the setup, plus a bit of the "swinging in a barrel" image, allowed me to keep the weight loaded on that inside edge. It is (for me) also necessary to have a fairly short backswing. If I try to take it back too far, the weight will roll onto that outside edge no matter what. And the result will be a thin hit or a skull. But with a fairly conservative backswing and the weight on the inside edge, I hit down into the ball and contact is so much better that I get better distance anyway, to the point where my golf partners wonder where the distance comes from, with such a compact swing. I didn't know any of this was called "Stack and Tilt" until later.
Other golfers will have other swing flaws, but for me it's all about keeping the weight on the inside of the right foot, and the only way to do that consistently is S&T.
Posted 18 Apr 2008 at 2:15pm #
I love it with the irons. Amazing crisp shots. No more chunks. I am a 10 handicap, and my biggest problem had always been iron consistency, and this is great.
Driver is a mess though. I went from hitting slight draws with great consistency to hitting bleeding cut slices, or pull slices.
Any help why this is?
Posted 18 Apr 2008 at 8:56pm #
Scott. I had trouble with tee shots until I read the second instruction issue which stressed the hip slide much more than the first set of instruction. I usually hit a consistant draw now so long as my hands stay together on the shaft throught the swing. I also have a longer comment above in Feb.
Posted 18 Apr 2008 at 10:21pm #
I didnt see much stacking and tilting in the final round of the masters. Oh, by the way, Is Mike Weir still stacking and tilting, because his front foot is practically off the ground in his backswing. I've never seen weight on something that is in the air. I noticed he changed his pre-shot routine back to the old.
Why dont somebody ask Eric Axley(203rd in GIR, 182nd in fairways hit), Franklin Langham (Dead last in both stats, shot 90 last week) or Will Mckenzie (193 on money list and awful stats) how they are coming along !
Aaron Baddelay is their model ? He was 193rd in greens in regulation in 2006 and 188th in 2007 !
THEY MUST BE HELPING HIM WITH HIS STACK AND TILT CHIPPING AND PUTTING !
Posted 23 Apr 2008 at 6:02am #
stack n tilt is defo the way forward.take a look at the scottish golf union results since our national coaches started coaching stack n tilt.richie ramsey took stack n tilt over to the states and walked the us amatuer.
Posted 23 Apr 2008 at 4:44pm #
Jerrold, do you have a link?
William, the stack n tilt isn't perfect. But I am finding that it really helps me with my ball contact. I am not a touring pro, I am a 10 handicap trying to drop a couple more shots. I think this stack and tilt provides some quality swing thoughts regarding balance and weight that are more consistent with what I have tried using Leabetter weight shifts. I am sure Leadbetter's weight shifts can work great, but I haven't been taking lessons from him, and I think stack and tilt is easier to apply for a player of my ability.
My ball striking has definitely improved. My compression on iron shots is much better. I have gone a full club up distance wise (not necessarily my goal, but an interesting effect). My fat shots are far fewer and my usual big sweeping hook from coming over the top has been eliminated.
Your swing may be perfect already, which is fine, no need to learn something new. Mine was not, and I'm finding this method to be very productive.
Posted 25 Apr 2008 at 9:29pm #
Scott, you obviously dont know stack and tilt, stack and tilt teaches players to re-hinge wrists through impact and not take divots! Compressing means trapping the ball or catching more on the downswing, thats not what they are teaching! And as far as your sweeping hook, their students do hit big draws unfortunately ! I dont know how much you know about the swing, but a sweeping hook is a inside-to-out swing with a clubface that is closing ! Over the top doesnt cause a sweeping hook. Go to your local club on saturday morning and tell me how many players are out there coming over the top and hitting sweeping hooks. THEY WISH !
Posted 22 May 2008 at 2:17pm #
The S&T has cured my biggest problem -- getting my weight to my left side. But I do have a caveat that is applicable to any swing change. At first the difference will be very noticeable, but after 50 swings or so it will seem "normal," and you may then conclude, erroneously, that you're not doing it anymore -- tilting toward the target, for example. You will then exaggerate the move to get the feeling back, and this is when things start to head south very, very fast. I've pointed this out to many teaching pros, and their reaction is always the same: "Yeah, that's a problem." And we pay these guys?
Posted 22 May 2008 at 8:09pm #
I completely agree with what David said above. What he describes can be applied to any swing change, and has to be guarded against. When the change becomes "normal," which is actually the goal, and you hit a bad shot or two--bad shots happen--you start to think you're not "doing it" anymore, and so you overcook it. Then it gets worse and you start to think "it doesn't work anymore."
For me, the initial forward weighting is *subtle*. It's really a small adjustment. I try to make it just enough to be noticeable (by me); no more.
Posted 23 May 2008 at 10:26am #
Comments by David and TM are both my experience. I've been at it for a year and a pre-shot slow full swing helps me "remember" without exaggeration. I have the most problems with "half" shots. Does anyone have any thoughts on S & T and less that full shots?
Posted 31 May 2008 at 9:24pm #
I have been using S&T for about 10 months and practiced it twice a week all winter. I also refused to read any other golf information to clutter my thought process. At first the difference was immediate. Iron shots farther and more consistent and driver was better as well. Lately I have been hooking most shots left. Ball striking has been more inconsistent and I have been questioning every step of the process. I have re-read the information 10 times, and I wonder if I am exaggerating the tilt; then I think I'm not tilting enough. Or maybe I'm not striking down on the ball, then I think I'm too steep. Then again maybe my lower body is not doing it's job. As you probably can tell my mind is a mechanical mess. The swing makes sense to me so I am not giving up on it. Positive feedback would be appreciated.
Posted 02 Jun 2008 at 3:33pm #
I shared the same experience as Chris J and after a year at it still do to some extent. I found my over draw shots could be helped by a slight open face to start. I also noted my backswing became lower behind me the more automatic the swing became so I had to work on a little higher take away. It also becomes a process of "over thinking."
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 2:12pm #
I have just tried the S&T once and the results are amazing: a much clear ball contact from the first shot!!. Manuel de la Torre ("Understanding the Golf Swing" page 63) is similar in the sense of avoiding to move the weight back; he propose just to keep you in balance and centered over the ball . I think this is the real key for consistency in average golfers which can not practice as much as a Tour pro. Here is a link with some good keys to hit the driver using the S&T swing:
http://www.emeraldbaygolfclub.com/video/stackandtilt.pdf
Posted 15 Jun 2008 at 11:11am #
I've been using the S&T for several years now. Using the traditional swing I spent many hours trying to perfect my tempo, which was necessary in order to shift back off the inside of the left instep. I am tall and this, for me, was a difficult thing to do. The S&T instantly fixed this. It just made sense. My problem now is that my teaching pro has abandoned me and now I am back to trying to correct any problems by self examination. He said the swing should be like baseball, to which I replied that the stack and tilt is more like a hockey slap shot where the weight stays toward the front.
So far so good, I'm shooting in the high 80's and hitting more greens. I'm sticking with it.
Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 11:17am #
Having taught golf, the biggest problem with swing changes is nobody practices enough. If a tour pro wants to change a small bit it takes months and thats with Butch Harmon or someone watching. The average golfer has no idea what his swing mechanics are and therefore can not self correct. I know this because I have tried self teaching myself. I have tried almost every method from Natural Golf to Gary Edwards whose students include. Pampling, at one time Peter Lonard and Gavin Coles who could be a top 60 player if he was a big larger in stature. JULIUS BOROS WON 2 US OPENS WITH STACK AND TILT.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO LEARN ARNOLD PALMERS SWING? IF YOUR SERIOUS FIND AN INSTRUCTOR YOU TRUST AND A SWING THAT FITS YOUR ABILITY AND STICK WITH IT. THIS GAME IS DIFFICULT ENOUGH WITHOUT TRYING A NEW SWING EVERY MONTH.
Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 4:19am #
I'm 62 and as a young man I could play. After gaining and losing 160 lbs. I decided to "re-learn" the game. Teacher after teacher taught me and thousands of balls and swing thoughts later - I still stunk. While briefly I was a four (thirty years ago) I am now a thirty. Years and years of low 80's and a once in a while trip to the seventies seemed a distant memory. When I read the SAT article it felt familiar somehow. I went to the range and bang - this felt like my swing of forty years ago. Not as long but a crisp, accurate draw and consistent! I spoke of this to a good golfer who commented as follows - How did it feel after a month? Boy, was he right. I'm back to the same old junk results. And worse, now I have a new problem - I literally stop at the top and have to reload. I did it eight times on the tee box while my son laughed at me. Get to the top and freeze solid. I'm reading Rotella, Zen Golf, Tom Galway and Mike Murphy trying to get my mind straight. I often say that I wish I didn't know what it was like to play well as the current failure to get it together is all the more frustrating. Any advise out there for the big freeze?
I still have the VJ GD in the rack and return to it almost weekly. But where is the book? These guys need to write a book (or I need to know that they have). My last teacher refuses to teach me the "reverse pivot".
Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 9:40pm #
Does anyone know if http://www.stackandtilt.com is legitimate?
Having already been a victim of ID-theft, I'm wary of putting in an order on a fairly new site with no phone number as a means of contact.
Thanks!
Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 4:17am #
Also there is other website more known, where they sell the DVDs: http://www.medicus.com/stackandtilt.php
Does anybody already buy the DVDs? In case so, which is your opinion? I have just bought the Stan Utley´s book for short game because I read in other forum that it was like "stack and tilt for the short game". When I´ll finish reading it I will post my opinion
Posted 20 Jun 2008 at 4:25pm #
I'm 67 and surprised I've yet to see anyone mention Tommy Armour (Armour III's granddad). He was the recognized as the premiere instructor in his day and he taught (and wrote) all golf shots are set up with your weight on your left side and kept on the left side through out the swing. The only exception is the teed up Drive because you're hitting on the upswing. That seems to be the main criticism of the Stack and Tilt - too hard to hit the Driver. I've been experimenting with the Stack and Tilt and feel like I've gained some yardage with the Irons and lost with the Driver but hit both straighter and if my chipping and pitching ever improve, the scores will really drop.
Posted 22 Jun 2008 at 11:29am #
MichaelM: Great advice!!. I read Tommy Armour´s great book "How To Play Your Best Golf All The Time" and I didn´t even remember it, but it is as you have stated. Thanks for remembering it. Armour suggests to set your weight up favoring your left foot rather than the right foot. I cite a paragraph:
" To hit a good iron shot, your club must contact the ball before the sole of the club gets to the bottom of its arc. Tis get backspin on the ball, eliminates hitting behind the ball, and gets the hands ahead of the ball as the shot is hit. Having the weight borne more on the left foot than on the right as you´re coming into the ball is the way of getting the correct downward path for the iron."
"Impact on the long iron shot: Weight is still on the left foot (as it was in address and throughout the swing)."
"Hitting the ball a long way ... depends on the effective use of the hands, rather than on trying to throw the weight of the body into the shot"
....."your body is on a steadily fixed upright axis."
Another classic instructor using no weight shift during the swing!!! Ckeck also Count Yogi and Mindy Blake swing.
Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 3:40am #
Great video about the foundations an advantages of this swing:
http://www.southlandgolfmagazine.com/t-av-new-tour-swing.aspx
S&T is not only a no weight shif swing: With the Stack and Tilt swing the golfer starts with about 60% of his weight on the front foot, and actually shifts more weight to the front when taking the club back. Stack and Tilt encourages the golfer to lean towards the target while the club is taken up.
Every time that I forget this ideas my results are not as expected. It´s easy to forget it and go back to the swing that we have made for a long time before. I have to remember myself this couple of ideas and the swing is in perfect fit again to get straight and long shots.
Posted 28 Jun 2008 at 2:59pm #
I am a 66 year old recreational golfer who has tried every method and swing aid under the sun. I am an 8 handicap and have been as low as a 6. My swing on video has always showed the same swing faults; raising head on backswing and sliding hips too far towards the target on the downswing.
The S&T solve sthe problem of lifting the head because it feels like it actually lowers to the ball at the start of the backswing and the slide of the hips towards the target is actually encouraged in this swing.
I hit my irons more crisp. MY drives are not any longer but I feel that I am more in control of their direction.
I agree with some earlier comments about the hips and pelvis are in control of the swing and one has to consciously apply more energy to them as the round goes on. You can't get lazy with your lower body.
When I first tried the S&T my lower back was more symptomatic and I had to give it up. But it is better now and not causing a problem yet with this swing.
I ordered the DVD's over a week ago and am anxiously waiting to see what is in there that can help; gain more distance off the tee and how to correct shots that start to go too far right. I think I know but need to confirm it.
To sum up; I am tired of changing my swing and this one seems much more simple in its' concept. I find that I can actually take the few necessary swing thoughts of the S&T to the course and have some success there.
Posted 30 Jun 2008 at 6:35pm #
I am 69 y /o. Three handicap. I have a history of conventional golf instruction since age 10. I have been struggling to maintain my handicap. I was scratch at age 45. In the last 10 years I have tried everything to maintain my edge- Natural golf, The Simple Golf Swing, The Dalton swing, etc. I ordered S@T CDs and have had them for a week. I have gone through them three times. I took it to the course, not the range. The r esults are astonishing. I can't imagine how much improvement I have made without an instructor in the system in a weeks time. Forget the naysayers - Gary Player, Brady Riggs, They don't have a clue as far as I am concerned. This is not a system to separate you from your money. This is the real thing. I think this will work for others - maybe not beginners I don't know. For any body who is a 10 or better I would recommend giving this a chance if you're not satisfied with your situation. I surely is working for me. If nothing else I recommends using it in your short game if nothing else. Since watching the program I have shot 76-72-80-69-70 and 9 holes at 36. This result with a new swing without an instructor- without anything more than watching 3 hrs. of CDs. I feel that with time I can get back to scratch. I am completely sold on this program.
Posted 01 Jul 2008 at 1:20am #
Well I just received my DVD's (4) today and have viewed 2 of the 4. I was initially disappointed that I couldn't get them to run on my laptop. I don't know if that is a problem with what I am doing or if they were made in a format that only my DVD player would play.
The video quality and production is not great but the quality of the instruction is very good. The first DVD covers the basics of the S&T and the fundamentals of a good golf swing. I thought the fundamentals part was going to be of value to beginning golfers but they have some interesting twists on what is really important.
The second DVD I viewed covers what causes slices, hooks, tops and fat shots and then how to make the ball curve the way you want it.
After viewing the the first two DVD's I had to get out to the practice range and give some of what I heard and saw a try.
I am not a pro yet but I am seeing some serious improvement.
I will watch the last two DVD's (The S&T in depth and the short game in the next couple of days. I will let you know how they work out. For $1 more a piece they sent a medicus 7 iron, 5 iron and driver. I am not sure how they fit in the S&T method but for $3 I couldn't pass them up.
Posted 01 Jul 2008 at 3:06am #
Jim,
Just a short question: Is there anything new in the DVDs or anything which is understood in a different way after watching the DVDs ?
I just have a doubt that is not totally clear for me: it is about the position at the top (below or over the shoulder) and the swing plane if it should be flatter or steeper. I have tried both and the feeling is totally diferent. Please I´ll be grateful if anyone can help me to clarify this. Thanks a lot!!
Posted 01 Jul 2008 at 12:04pm #
I've remained self-taught since picking up the game 3 years ago at 46 years old. Even though I've succeeded in getting down to a 3 hcp, there's a lot of sway in my swing, which leads to some inconsistency and occasional shanks. After reading through this thread yesterday and having a particularly challenging day on the course this weekend, I headed over to the range to give this swing a try. Afterall, I already weight my left side when putting, chipping, pitching and lobbing. I'd love to develop a single swing that works through my entire bag.
I was honestly blown away by how well I struck the ball by weighting my front foot and keeping the weight there during my entire swing. I'm not sure I took the club as far inside as prescribed by this swing method, but the quality of my ball striking was profound! However, like many, I struggled to produce great shots with my driver using this method. I'll keep experimenting.
I plan to stick with this swing for some time to determine if its benefits are long lasting and will report back. I'd love to think this swing can get me down to my goal of reaching scratch golf by the end of my 4th year - and to break 70.
Posted 01 Jul 2008 at 9:42pm #
hanon,
After reviewing the "in depth DVD" there are a couple of surprises. One is that there is no reference to the downswing thought of stomping down on a can with the left heel to start the downswing. The instead talk about the importance of the hips shifting left, not suddenly, but smoothly throughout the downswing to impact.
Another was the importance of the hands moving away from the right shoulder in the downswing at the same time that the hips are moving left. That is important for those of us who tend to let their heads drop back to the right on the downswing even though their weight moves left, prior to impact.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 4:58pm #
Forgive the rant... I just placed an order for the DVD set from the S&T website. Word of caution; READ the agreements carefully, before clicking them... There are trial offers for Medicus products (which I already own) and they're somewhat deceiving... I myself was duped! I wasn't fooled into the medicus "Trial Offers", however, I intended to choose the $19.95 trial offer and make 4 additional payments of the same, if I was satisfied with the S&T product. Then, up popped the free expedited shipping offer!
Oh, sure! But only if you opt to pay the entire amount immediately... Oh well... they claim a 60 day return policy.
I'll admit... I'm skeptical! I've tried just about every "do-it-yourself" golf aid out there. I've taken lessons (helped the most). I placed my order before finding this site, and just looking for a little feedback.
I'm pleased to read that the majority of the posters here have had success with the system, to one degree or another. It appears after reading that several experienced initial success and that faded with time... I can personally attest that holds true with every aspect of my game, when experimenting with different products and methods -- to varying degrees. There seems to be a common theme here; when you get back to the core principals of the system, it comes back for a lot of folks! This is probably true for the majority of methods and aids available... What separates the good from the bad is the simplicity and repeatability of a given system.
There are critics of the S&T, and rightfully so... I'll certainly report back with my personal/objective opinion... Some of these "critics" have flamed other posters, from my perspective. And I think that's inappropriate! That said... everyone's entitled to their opinion.
I'm looking forward to giving the S&T a shot! The one aspect we all have to keep in mind, is that golf is a game of consistency. We've all made those incredible shots that we couldn't repeat if our lives depended on it! That's what separates us from the pros! And that separates the pros from the "Tigers"!!! Not many of us are fortunate enough to spend the majority of our lives on a golf course... When something comes along that defies convention, yet allows us "weekend hacks" to enjoy more than a few nice shots every round; I'm all about it! Who knows, this might be the answer for me...? If not, I'll still love this great game! Regardless of how terrible I may play it -- it keeps me coming back...
Posted 04 Jul 2008 at 6:47pm #
Dear Hack,
I am one who didn't read the fine print and now have 3 medicus clubs that I don't know what to do with. I suppose that I should have heeded the old saying "Anything that looks too good to be true; probably is".
We have a weekly Wednesday night match play even at my club and after watching the DVD's for a couple of day; I completely stunk up the course. Too much information, too soon.
The next day at the practice range, I went back to the basics (trying to make contact with the ball and then the ground by making sure that my weight was favoring the left side at address, moving more weight left on the backswing and then going left more by shifting the hips prior to impact). I just added trying to keep the "flying wedge" and was hitting the ball pretty good again.
I will let you know if it is a swing that has some consistanly and that I can take to the course in a match.
Posted 04 Jul 2008 at 7:40pm #
Does everyone realize what is going here? The stack and tilt is simply nothing more than a full swing version of the chip shot. You're simply keeping your weight on your front foot and then hitting down on the ball from the inside just like you do on a basic running chip shot. Simply think of it as hitting low 100-225 yd chip shots into the green with your irons (3-SW), depending on which iron you're using. This also explains why it doesn't work as well with the driver (driver is not designed to hit down on the ball). End of story.
Posted 04 Jul 2008 at 8:14pm #
Steve,
There is a little more to it than that. On the DVD's they address the angle of descent and ascent with the driver. It works.
Posted 04 Jul 2008 at 9:09pm #
Thx. I just went and tried this concept at the range. It is awesome for the irons. Didn't try it yet for the woods. Which DVD are you referring to?
Posted 06 Jul 2008 at 6:57am #
I've found a source for the S&T video that does not involve Medicus - see the PGA Tour Partners Club. Cheaper and no hidden 'stuff'.
Posted 06 Jul 2008 at 10:01am #
Just starting out with the swing, but have to note that the beauty of the stack and tilt is the simplicity. Start getting videos, books, etc., and you'll just stink up your brain with too much thinking. You need to just shut all that off and swing the club. Set pressure on left foot, tilt, swing through. The only adjustment I had to make was with the driver - choking up a little and taking a higher swing path. S&T has turned my iron shots around dramatically and has eliminated by giant fade (slice) off the tee. I am more consistent, have fewer bad shots, hit straighter, and as a result of all those am hitting longer as well. It's not hard on my back, but I do notice that the swing breaks down rapidly if I get fatigued. I am a very high handicap player and will see what this does for me over the next couple of months and report back.
Posted 07 Jul 2008 at 6:34am #
I have found some comments about the DVDs in this forum: http://www.activegolf.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=2223325&mpage=16
A question: I have a doubt about the initial inclination of the back -spine- (in the stance). If I get downward a bit more than normal I get a more rotational swing , with the ball being in the grass further from me. I get better solid contact this way bacause the swing is completely rotational. But I think that this is not pure S&T because I am afraid that S&T is more upright and steeper than I do, with the ball closer to me in the stance (this is, normal ball placement). Is it right that the stance should be more upright than I do??
Posted 08 Jul 2008 at 7:36pm #
Also selling the DVDs in this golf shop:
http://www.rockbottomgolf.com/medicus-stack-tilt-instructional-get-stacked-dvd-set.html
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 4:55pm #
Dedicated to those saying that this swing doenn´t work without even trying it. Looks perfect. Weight in the front foot and rotating the shoulder around the FIXED SPINE AXIS. This is the key!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAvo1Y_30U
Go ahead Badds!
Posted 11 Jul 2008 at 12:59am #
I started adopting this when I first read about it in golf digest last year. I immediately saw the benefit to stacking the weight forward and rotating around this center. I have played golf for about 15 years and have been between 0-3 handicap about the last 3 of them. I have played less golf this past year than any other I can remember but am hitting the ball by far the best ever in my life. The irons have pretty much been good since the beginning but I struggled with the driver similar to many others (snap hooks). I have since realized the importance of one of the moves in the S&T swing. THE DRIVING UP OF THE HIPS ON THE DOWNSWING! This is the key for me to keep the club traveling down the line of the target and not too far from the inside with my arms disconnected from my body. I was driving them up but I have found that the harder I drive them up, the better (and straighter) my driver becomes. Practice this while keeping a glove under the left arm to keep everything connected and moving in better path toward the target and when you get it... unbelievable results!!
Posted 11 Jul 2008 at 10:52am #
Mike Bennett, one of the creators of this swing, directly relates the foundations of S&T. Enjoy it:
http://www.findinternettv.com/Video,item,695973489.aspx
Posted 11 Jul 2008 at 3:55pm #
Low 80's occasional 70's golfer here.
I have been using the stack and tilt with my irons for 4 or so years now, before it had a name I think. I remember when I hit my first shots without a weight transfer and left everything on the front foot. To keep it short, the perfect divot and the perfect shot, every time at first. Like most I had some troubles a few weeks down the road but stayed with it. Just like any other golf swing this one requires time, it is important to stay with your chosen swing to get repetition and I think more importantly learn to fix when things go bad. I still hit the occasional shank however having used the swing so long I feel the problem and can work through it in a couple of shots.
My driver is a completely different swing. I never could get the S@T to work, always a nasty pull. I went back to my old swing with the driver, hit a ball well, and never looked back.
Posted 12 Jul 2008 at 8:39pm #
mid 70's golfer here.
I came across the stack and tilt (SAT) 2 weeks ago. After much reading and research about it, I was a little skeptical, but it made sense and I am willing to try anything to improve my game. First time I tried the SAT was actually during an outing where we were playing a 4 man scramble. I hit some of the most solid shots of my life. I then used for the next week, hitting the best irons I have ever hit. However, I could not figure out the driver. So I went back to my regular swing and shot a 75 the other day. I had a range session where I fixed my driver. However, using my traditional swing, I did not hit my irons as solid as I would have liked. Back to the driving range and found out that the driver problems I was having was because I was too close to the ball and it wasn't because of the SAT. Once again, I am using the SAT and am excited about playing the game again. Having always had a solid short game, but lacking a little bit in consistent ball striking, I am excited to think that I might be able to shoot close to par on a regular basis. My one piece of advice if you start struggling after a week or 2 of using the SAT is not to abandoned the swing, but to check your grip and other basics to make sure they are where they should be for your swing.
Posted 14 Jul 2008 at 2:48am #
A forum with comments about the DVDs:
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175425
Posted 17 Jul 2008 at 3:37pm #
Well, I'm another thats always looking for that missing piece to golf greatness, so of course I bought the DVD's. Aaron Baddeley was my hook as I am similar build and I just love his swing, as it looks so effortless and simpl. Thats pretty much where it ends. I watched the first two dvd's and those guys made it seem way more complicated than it looked and I'm a pretty technical guy. I shanked the heck out of the ball when I first started trying it and instead of killing my friends with friendly fire, I went back to my old inconsistant, unshankable swing. For you all that are doing great, what in the world am I doing wrong? What are some of your swing thoughts taking it back and through? Your help would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Posted 18 Jul 2008 at 9:21pm #
I had read the article quite awile ago but tried it for the first time yesterday. I'm about a 10 handicap and have struggled with ground first contact for a long time. I hit the ball much more solidly and actually get the driver great.......picked up 10 + yards. Seems very important to keep the shoulders square through impact.
Posted 19 Jul 2008 at 6:28pm #
I've purchased the DVD set and have watched it at least a dozen times. I have hit range balls about six times and played three rounds trying to carry over the SAT foundamentals and not revert back to traditional methods. At times I have found myself completely stymied and feeling lost (especially out on the course). My experiences to date have been positive. Like many have stated I feel my iron play has improved. I feel like I am hitting the ball crisper and getting more consistent distance and direction control. What works for me is to slow down my swing and feel the different rhythmn of this swing. Taking several measured practice swings before I hit the ball reinforces this feeling. When I do this I can put the parts together-start to finish- in the proper perspective. This has lead to a significant improvement in consistency.
I struggle still with the down swing to finish sequence and getting the hips moving continuously forward toward the target while straightening my spine. But I believe this will continue to get easier with more repetition.
What really works for me in practice is to start with a P-wedge and hit quite a few balls to groove the forward weight shift and inside take-away with a mostly passive arm movement. I concentrate on a three quarters swing and gradually move to a full swing before I move on to a stronger iron.
The DVD discusses a key fundamental that this swing technique promotes above all else and that is hitting the same spot on the ground each time and in front of the ball. The SAT technique is one of the first techniques that focuses on this above most every thing else. Toward this end, I believe that if I continue to not lose site of this goal when practicing and playing with SAT, I will be a better ball striker which will translate into better more consistent play.
Posted 19 Jul 2008 at 9:25pm #
I have been using the S&T for the past year and I have never hit my irons any better. I always had a problem getting back to my left foot on the follow through and had alot of miss hits, if I had to guess it would be 60%-40% miss hits to solid contact. I also used to try and pinch the ball like you read in every golf magazine out there and 8 time out of 10 I would hit the ball really fat. With this I've been able to keep the weight on my front foot and start taking divots 8 times out of 10 perfect. I recently went to the golf range with my neighbor who played on the NIKE Tour and he gave me a pointer about shifting my weight so I tried it. The miss hits came back just like before ,so I am going back to the S&T the next time I play which will be tomorrow!
Posted 20 Jul 2008 at 2:58pm #
Now I am in week 5 with the S&T and have some mixed results but the positive is outweighing the negative.
I had a great 3 days of driving the ball (hitting about 85% of fairways) and less accurate with the irons to the green. (Too many pushes). I then tried to activate the accumulators by pushing my hands away from the right shoulder in the beginning of the downswing and I hit many more greens.
Yesterday on the range I was trying to visualize the video's of the S&T golfers swings that I have seen on youtube, instead of thinking of all the parts of the S&T swing. After I got stacked on my backswing I tried to just turn my shoulders around my spine (keeping my head still) without any other thoughts. It went really well with just that thought on the range. Today or tomorrow I will see if it works on the course.
Posted 23 Jul 2008 at 10:53am #
Hello Frustrated--Try the next 2 DVD's and note the "flying wedge" section and the short game one. My "shanks" have come from NOT turning my shoulders throught the shot and just using an arm swing. You have to turn the upper body if you keep the "flying wedge" past impact and into the follow through. Sometimes what seems to be a "shank" is really a club that has not closed at impact and that also relates to an arm swing. Good luck. I have been using the S & T for a year and am still finding out things about it.
Posted 23 Jul 2008 at 3:15pm #
Can anyone explain me why I get better results with S&T if I use a more flat stance and plane (more rotational) -with the ball a bit further from me in the address- than if I use a more upright stance?.
With a flatter stance I get more solid contact and much distance. Thanks in advance
Posted 23 Jul 2008 at 4:58pm #
hanon:
It has to do with the plane of the swing. The SAT is a one plane swing more like a baseball swing with the club in plane with the shoulders and more bent over. The two plane swing brings the club head more away from the target than inside and raises the hands higher in the backswing. Therefore, one stands closer to the ball on a two plane swing.
The one plane is a body swing and squares the club face with the body. The two plane is more of an arms and hands swing which squares the club face. The first move down in the two plane swing must drop the left elbow into the right pocket to get the club inside were the one plane swing has been all along.
Posted 23 Jul 2008 at 5:03pm #
sorry - I meant right elbow into right pocket.
Posted 29 Jul 2008 at 6:51pm #
I am using the S&T and have seen a great improvement in my ball striking. I have to guard against loosing my drives to the right, but even my misses are better. As far as the swing being hard on the back, I have battled a bad back for over 35 years and find that this swing is much easier on my back and left hip that the traditional swing.
Posted 29 Jul 2008 at 9:20pm #
Further update. After using the SaT for 30 days I am very pleased. Shot rounds of 74 and 73 today, with the best ball striking I have ever experienced. Birdied the last 3 holes on the round of 73. Hitting on all cylinders right now. Main swing thought is in working the knees like Eric Axley (watch youtube video for further explanation and watch his knees work, this action allows the club to get on the proper swing plan). When this doesn't happen the club picks up and my weight starts shifting back instead of stacking. When the right knee straightens out it allows the hips to make a complete turn and keeps the club on the inside. Main thoughts right now... 1- work knees, 2 - stay through shot, 3 - get good extension.
Posted 29 Jul 2008 at 11:58pm #
I too have been having very real success with the S&T after about 5 weeks. My handicap is 9 but it will come down if I keep on with what I have been doing.
My swing thoughts are taking the club back inside. ( I had let it get too far outside and too long)
I then think about pushing my hips forward all the way through the downswing. I hardly ever pull the ball and either hit it straight or sometimes a slight push.
I feel that I have found a swing that I can take to a tournament.
Posted 01 Aug 2008 at 10:43am #
I would like to add my two cents to this thread as well . My handicap ,at its lowest has been 9.3 and now its up to a 12 ( due to lack of play ) . I have tried and read most everything thing there is on the golf swing ..You name the gimmic and I probably have it . When the article first came out , I tried the method and it seemed to work ( I shot even par for 9 holes a few time s and broke 80 on a several occasions . I must admit I did drift away from stack and tilt when I began pulling my shots . Due to my horrible play of late ( which I attribute in part to my lack of play) I have gone back to the Stack and Tilt method . My scores have come down significantly the past few times out , I have shot in the low 80's ...With this turn around in my scores I opted to order the DVD's hoping I would gain more info on the technique . I should have them in a day or two . I have my club championship coming up on 8/9 and 8/10 and the best I have ever done is tied for 3rd . My club ball contact with my irons is terrific ..I have not attempted the technique with my driver as I drive the ball pretty well .
I am hoping the DVD's will be more informational than the article in GD. I will repost after my club championship . I plan on sticking with this method this time .
Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 1:20pm #
Just curious to see if anyone has tried the stack-n-tilt principles using Gary Edwin's reverse K setup. I was experimenting today hitting some balls at lunch and tried getting into Gary Edwin's right sided setup, then trying to maintain stack-n-tilt's flying wedge and starting the downswing by trying to extend the hands away from the right shoulder and actually hit the ball really well. I've always had a problem of my upper body getting ahead of the ball on the downswing and swing being too steep. Setting up with Gary Edwin's method, allows me to still have most of my weight on the left side, but with the upper body set behind the ball.
Posted 07 Aug 2008 at 2:26pm #
Summary of basic S&T foundations told directly by Mike Bennett in a video interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_YepJ3wSs
Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 9:42am #
As promised , in my last post , i indicated that I would let everyone know how i did in my recent club championship using the S&T . I did not fair well at all ....did not even break 90 , but I really cannot blame S&T for my poor play . I did hit my irons as crisply as I ever had and that was where I was employing S&T mostly . I had resumed S&T only a couple of weeks prior to the Club Championship and really did not practice enough due to other things going on in my life . I find it much easier to adopt the swing with my shorter irons (7-wedges) . I find myself still swaying to the right with the longer clubs ( 6-driver) .
So essentially , I was using 2 separate swings this weekend S&T on my shorter irons and my conventional swing for everyting else , and my scores ( which are to embarrasing to share ) are in indication of that .
So , with that said , I am going to stick with the S&T and try to stop the swaying and incorporate more body turn back and through the ball . Unfortunatly , the dvd's really do not give you any drills to work on ...they just go into extensive detail of the S&T swing . So if anyone has any suggestions on drills to keep me centered over the ball ..please let me know
Posted 11 Aug 2008 at 1:28pm #
I have been playing for about 4 years have take several lessions, practiced regularly and never seemed to improve. So I was ready to try anything to improve. Read both articles in Golf Digest, practiced for about two months. My handicap was a 22 in June and after the last update 8 Aug, I am currently an 18 index. It works plain and simple. Still struggle with the driver but it will come around and I think I will be around a 15 when the driver comes onboard.
Posted 12 Aug 2008 at 3:00am #
I am a self-taught golfer (9 handicap) and the stack and tilt came around not by reading the magazines but simply through learning to hit low running shots through the trees because I wasn't in the fairway enough!
Because of this shot that I could pull off any time with a nice draw I started using it from fairway and off the tee and my scores started dropping. It is very easy to get good contact with the method because it feels so compact.
2 or 3 things to note. I used to hit my driver very high and I started using this method to keep the ball down and it works.
I used to be able to hit a fade and now struggle with it as the around the body movement tends to produce a draw... or a hook if you don't get your hips moving quickly enough. If I need to hit a fade now I have to go back to the classic method, which is a bit counter-productive, so I try and stay with the stack and tilt.
Finally, on shorter irons the method works well, but on longer irons you still need to consciously take the iron away wide or you come back into the ball very steep.
Posted 12 Aug 2008 at 7:41pm #
Hi.. I'm a 5 handicap player. I played with a 0 Sunday who has adopted the stack and tilt or tilta whirl, or lock and block... or whatever you call it... I decided to try it.. with no other thought than keeping my weight on my left side throughout the swing and turning through the ball. I had instant success.. I shot 71 yesterday on a fairly difficult course. I played in a scramble today and hit a lot of really good shots... although I hit a couple bad shots, too. I really believe that ball contact is the secret to lower scores and the s-t swing certainly promotes it. I'm pretty happy with my newfound success... we'll see if it continues..
RP
Posted 12 Aug 2008 at 9:20pm #
hanon said on June 19, 2008:
Just finished Utley's book and the principles are the same. Chipped in twice last friday for birdies.
Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 1:30pm #
Yes, Utley´s method for short game has the same principles as S&T: weight in the left leg, pivot around the left leg, small tilt of the spine to the left and path around the body
I haven´t practiced it a lot yet , but for now I can say that it is very simple and gives good and reliable results. You fell really the ball compression even in the short chips!!. This is a video about his chipping method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzS_HwzChaA
The pitching method is even more similar to S&T: in fact is a small S&T -weight in the left, pivoting around the left leg and releasing the club in the impact zone-.
Even in his bunker method he puts his weight in the left side.
Hope be useful
Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 10:20am #
I'm like a lot of you in that I apply some of the S & T theory but not the whole thing. I started the year at an 11.3 and I'm currently 9.7. Not bad improvement for a lifelong golfer. The basic thing that I took away from the S&T philosophy was the limited shift to the right.
I also got to the point that my 'miss' is a hook. I can't intentionally slice any more without reverting to the old swing and that never works very well!
Crisper contact with my divot now after the ball as it should be.
Overall I'm very happy with my game. If I keep my drives in play I usually get a par or better on the hole. If not then any number is in play.
Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 10:29am #
For the ones who have had alot of success with the S&T. Can you sortof put it in laymen's terms on how you start the backswing and downswing? Thanks.
Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 12:34pm #
Frustrated: I haven't looked at the DVDs or spent a lot of time analyzing the S&T method. I may not be doing it the "correct" way, but what I do has been working consistently for me.
I set up with my weight *slightly* favoring my forward leg (irons only; with driver I'm centered).
I take the club back smoothly, paying attention to a couple of things. (1) As my hips turn back, my forward knee moves forward, and my rear knee straightens somewhat, so that my hips move freely, a kind of "turntable" feeling of the hips. This keeps the hands and club moving back to the inside, as they should. (2) My rear (right) foot contact on the ground stays "light." Although there is some weight on that foot, at no point do I feel that I'm pushing against it on the backswing. With a conventional swing, I'd feel weight transferring to the inside edge (on a good day, otherwise the outside edge) of the rear foot. With this swing I stay stacked on the forward foot.
It's a compact swing. I don't need to try for a huge backswing to generate power, because ball contact is so good I get the distance I want anyway.
As for the downswing, since the weight is already forward, there is no need to do any sort of forward weight shift. The hips just turn back and around toward the target and the swing uncoils and the club head whips through the impact zone, striking down into the ball. Keep the spine inclination angle constant. The S&T swing is very consistent with the old "swing in a barrel" advice. It feels compact and rotational, because it is.
Again, this is my simple-minded version of it. Others, who have studied the DVDs, may want to correct what I say. But this works well for me.
Posted 15 Aug 2008 at 2:35pm #
Frustrated--adding to FM with whom I agree, I do have the DVD's and they are worthwhile. I started paying attention to the "accentuators" (sp?) especially the "flying wedge" and straightening the right arm through impact and suddenly generated a lot more power even though it usually results in a shorter follow through from a less hurried swing. As shown in the DVD, during the take away and to the complete backswing the shoulders are not level--but are at a much steeper angle. Last week I saw on TV a slow motion of the swing of one of the pros and as the commentators pointed out saw his shoulders move from a more or less level line on the back swing to a steeper angle on the swing (similar to the S & T position throughout,) so I decided to try it. When I do it smoothly in the swing, it counter acts the tendency to hook and produces a gentle draw. Also, a gentle use of the right arm bend and straighten gives me a crisp, easy chipping contact.
Posted 18 Aug 2008 at 2:01pm #
When I saw the article on GD I read it several times and went to the driving range to try it but nothing positive came out of it. I guessed I did not get it. Two weeks ago I revisited it again and read forums about S & T. I noticed majority of those who tried it have something positive to say about it. I read the article again and took note of the tips posted and went back to the range. This time something good happened but also some bad ones. The bad ones are caused by clubhead being 'too closed ' at the top of the backswing having my right palm facing the ground and severly closed at impact. The start of the backswing is a one-piece-takeaway is'nt it ? Conventionally, when you have your arms parallel to the ground the toe of the clubhead faces upward, is it the same in S & T ? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Posted 19 Aug 2008 at 10:21am #
It has been a couple of weeks since my atrocious showing at my club championship and after much analysis , and another couple of rounds using the S&T ( for my irons only ) I have come to a couple of conclusions ...1). If I am in the fairway and have an Iron in my hands , I use the S&T and have had huge success ( shot a 35 even par for nine on the tougher 9 at my home course) . 2). I still have to get my tee ball in play ...when it is in play , my greens in reulation soar ( which I attribute to the S&T method which leads to much more solid iron contact and 3)...I intend on sticking w the S&T method ...The whole idea behing the golf swing is to get your weight on and thru your left side at contact ...The S&T setup does that for u b/4 you even take the club back ...Your comments ,suggestions r welcome
Posted 19 Aug 2008 at 4:59pm #
I have been using the S&T for about one year. Like most of you, my irons are much better (even the long ones) because I am stiking down on the ball and taking the divot in front of the ball. Because I am using the S&T with the woods, I have gotten way off on my consistancy with them because I do not want to take a divot but sweep the ground. I know that I have to work on my balance and finish with the woods. I will update when I accomplish this.
Posted 20 Aug 2008 at 9:54am #
In a nutshell..Backswing Shoulder down,hands in weight forward..Downswing Arms straight, Tuck rearend under torso.
My drives have really improved since I have managed to keep the flying wedge(right wrist angle) through impact with straight arms while swinging in a circle..Good Luck
Posted 20 Aug 2008 at 1:19pm #
First day using SAT was yesterday at the range. Read the GD articles and took the Pocket Tips to the range. After taking monster divots behind the ball on the first few tries, I adjusted by crushing the can with the left foot. BINGO! Misses were 10-15 yard fades, but no more hooks. Much better compression and almost every divot was after the ball. Hit a few thin shots, but overall I was very pleased. Distance gain was amazing - my 9 iron is usually 145, but it was flying 155-160.
I could also dial in my misses much more quickly....draws/hooks were the result of not being properly stacked and fades/slices were the result of not exploding up during impact.
With the driver the advice of other posters of choking up helped immensely. Still stuggling with the three wood, but I hope to work that out today at the range.
Posted 20 Aug 2008 at 10:26pm #
I'm a 7 index and I got the DVD's and have had 3 driving range sessions so far with nice results. Yesterday I grabbed a cart by myself and took it to the course. Irons were really solid. On the driver, I think they do a poor job of explaining how to hit it on the DVD. I see on some pictures that they have moved the ball forward as should be the case with a driver IMO. But on the DVD, they advocate that ball position should be the same regardless of the club. Anyway, I used the still head/shoulder rotation part of SAT and just let the rest come natural. Moved the ball forward a couple of inches. This worked very well for me and I feel it was basically the same swing as with the irons.
Any thoughts on SAT and the driver as far as your experiences? Thanks!
Posted 22 Aug 2008 at 6:46am #
Stack & Tilt is what I basically used as a youngster and some Professional clown told me to shift my weight to the right. I have struggled with my game since ! Now I have found a great coach at La Cala Spain. He put me back on track with getting the weight forward I was hitting it like I did when I was a youngster in twenty minutes! Needless to say i'm hooked and will recommend this method which is a very natural way to swing a golf club and rediscover that the game can be fun again.
Posted 26 Aug 2008 at 8:53pm #
I retired @ 64 two years ago and started playing golf twice weekly. I took lessons and established a 26 handicap 6 months ago. I have lowered my handicap 1 stroke per month until August. I regularly score in the low 90's but no lower. I saw the Golf Chanel commercials about S&T and started surfing every S&T website I could find. I took no instructions nor did I buy anything but started to alter my swing to migrate into S&T. First two rounds I committed to S&T were ugly but I continued to try to make a real effort. This week I really tried to keep my head still and rotate around my core with a moderate swing. I shot 81. I had 8 GIR's and 8 fairways. The others were only a few yards off the fairway. My mis-hits ended up OK. I am convinced and can't wait until Thursday to play again.
Posted 28 Aug 2008 at 4:05pm #
Bill said on August 20, 2008:
I'm sure you are correct move the ball position slightly more forward to the left in your stance for the driver or woods and if it works stick with it best of luck !
Tom
Posted 29 Aug 2008 at 12:52pm #
I finally got the DVDs, a birthday gift.
First point: These DVDs are about the worst instructional videos I've ever seen. Don't get me wrong; I think the S&T method is very good, and it has knocked about 9 strokes off my game. But the videos are terrible. They are stupefyingly repetitious, and consist mostly of Mike Bennett holding static poses while Andy Plummer lectures. In four DVDs we see *very* few golf balls actually struck at normal tempo. And the important question of how and whether the driver swing or setup should be different is neglected. In any case, almost all of the material presented is about irons.
Second point: I think the S&T must be slightly modified to work with the driver. In particular, I think the 55-45 forward weighting at setup is counterproductive; 50-50 is better.
I'm no swing expert, but this is what has worked for me, and I think it makes good sense, too.
From the very beginning of the DVDs, Bennett and Plummer make the point that one of the true fundamentals of the golf swing is for the club to contact the ground after the ball, which means that the lowest point of the swing arc should be in front of the ball. This is fundamental because the irons should contact the ball on a downward trajectory. The slight forward weighting at setup helps to achieve this.
As others have pointed out in this thread, this fundamental doesn't apply to hitting a teed ball with the driver. In this case, we *don't* want the low part of the swing arc in front of the ball, and we don't want to contact the ball on a downward trajectory. Instead, we want to contact the ball on a level (tangent to the ground) trajectory, or slightly upward, depending on the ball flight we want. Therefore, it makes no sense to setup with the weight shifted forward.
We still want to avoid shifting the weight back, however, so the rest of the S&T remains: turn the hips but keep their angle of inclination; keep the spine angle of inclination, and tilt as the spine turns to do so.
It took me a while to figure out the driver, and I still sometimes slip and set up as if it were an iron, with ugly results. But when I can keep it in my mind just to keep my weight centered at setup, and no weight shift to the back, and of course not to swing too hard, I get some *really* nice drives with contact right on the sweet spot, the kind of drives that go far with what looks like a lazy swing.
Posted 29 Aug 2008 at 1:32pm #
The dvd's are returnable
Posted 29 Aug 2008 at 1:34pm #
Hi All
Just wondered whether anyone else has had same dilemna as me.
The stack and tilt method has absolutely revolutionised my irons, just great but I have been suffering some back pain.
Yes it could be co incidence but I never had pain before so just wondered if anyone else had experienced same because i dont want to give up S&T but dont want the back trouble either.
Whatever, there really is something to this technique albeit driver more difficult as per previous posts.
Posted 01 Sep 2008 at 6:29am #
I have had back problems for years but the S & T has actually helped. Make sure there is no tilting to the right during your swing or you will experience back problems . Weight must stay left throughout with no dipping of right side. Ball position is important with the driver make sure it is forward of centre near the left heel and you should be ok. Otherwise experiment with ball position at the range to see what suits you best. Farther forward higher ball flight. Best of Luck.
Posted 01 Sep 2008 at 11:19am #
I am in my early 60's. Been playing golf for 40 years. Self taught S & T from golf digest web site last winter. Handicap was 13 before S & T. Now it's an 8. Basically, the S & T is a left leg pivot and it works very good for irons. My drives - mostly straight or with a little draw - are almost always in play (this is a good thing), but I wasn't getting the distance I thought I should. I averaged 220 yds, with some up to 240 yds. Recently, I saw a video where the teacher (from California, of course) was advocating S & T for irons but a pivot using right (back) leg for drivers. When I tried this on the driving range I immediately picked up an extra 20 to 40 yds on my drive. I'm not a teacher so I can't explain the swing other than you start off with you weight on the inside of your right leg and keep it there for the whole swing. It feels more powerful than the S & T left leg pivot and the drives are significantly longer and higher.
I'd be interested to know if anybody else has tried this and what their results were.
Posted 01 Sep 2008 at 11:58am #
My wife says I am a swing junkie.Every 6 months or so I try a new swing.After receiving the S&T dvds I gave it an honest shot.If you have the time and really get into the technical aspects of the S&T it can really help with your ball striking.Personally,I am going to return to the swing that for me is a lot easier to incorporate and results are immediate.The 4 magic moves by Andy Brown is where its at for me.I always tell my wife to not let me try something new.When my swing is off she says "are you still doin Andy Brown"? Usually I'm expermenting with some new and supposedly better idea..ha I think there is a review somewhere on this site for it..
Posted 01 Sep 2008 at 1:51pm #
Bob,
I think you are referring to this method:
http://www.rdbgolftips.com/rdbstack.htm It is similar to stack and tilt except for the driver where it is said to concentrate in the right leg ( in other video into this site)
By the way Rookat, Andy Brown is a scam artist. His ebook is just a copy word by word of the old book "Four magic Moves to Winning Golf" (by Joe Dante). He hasn´t change any word but he is getting much money without doing anything else
One question for everyone: Is there any chance that this move could be applied to S&T?? I know it is based on "controlled" weight shift swings -Hogan-. But I think it may help to feel the right leg braced instead of moving it too easily -which, I think, can reduce the power of the shot. It will do a more quicker transition with more acceleration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAXNglCDcz4
Posted 04 Sep 2008 at 9:32am #
I have read all of these threads and clearly the jury is in. The S&T works for the most part. I am surprised that I saw no references to Iron Byron and the similarity of mechanics and physics used in this machine. Clearly, the ball is centered, the the swing plane is more or less to the inside and the downswing is simple and through. This is the standard to test balls and clubs. No lower part moves, no complex weight shift and timing. Just a nice smooth back and through. My observation so far is that this swing works. I have fiddled with my swing for over 20 years always trying to immulate some successful pro. Whether it was Freddie, Ernie or Tiger I just could not mimic them and of course each year I got a little older. My most solid ball striking occurs when I go back to my Hogan type swing keeping my right elbow close to my body on the back swing and rotating through with my shoulders. Unfortunately, I am only using half of my power sources. With the S&T method I find I am using it all. The torque of my straight left arm on the backswing. The clearing of my hips and whipping action down the line effortless of my clubhead through the ball with a beautiful finish which I never did before. Back pain was constant but no more. I believe this swing added years to my game and perhaps my body. Lastly, as a person who would agonize over every shot with a thousand thoughts racing through his mind. It is now down to a few pre-downswing. Once I am in motion downward there is no time to think it is automatic.
Posted 05 Sep 2008 at 4:54pm #
So, for some reason I bumped across this article earlier today. I've seen enough PGA coverage this year to understand the basic concept of keeping the weight forward and the rest of the S&T fundamentals.
I've always (15+ years) had a draw/hook action and a very inside takeaway. In the last few years it has been more pronounced as I have less practice time and more children. I also hit the ball really high - I play original Ping Eye2 irons which contribute to that phenomenon.
I ran out to the range and hit a bucket on grass. The first 20 shots were all blades - I just couldn't get "down" into the ball. Once I kept focusing on keeping the weight forward the shots started coming. And they were scary good! When I hit a good shot, it was laser like in accuracy with just barely a draw. The roping draw/hook was finally cured! Results were just as good with a wedge or 3 iron.
As for the driver issue except for the first few balls I had no problem. The more I felt like I was stacking and tilting the more boring the trajectory and a "popping" of the ball off the clubface. The best part was looking at the driver face after I was done. All marks were dead center - not one "miss hit" on the outer zones of the face. I was dumbfounded. I have always had a flatter swing and the ball traditionally kind of far away from myself so I have a feeling that is how I can clear the hips in S&T fashion, yet keep a pseudo-sweeping motion as a driver should have.
Playing in a scramble on Monday. That will be a load of fun with less pressure to perform than a traditional stroke round.
Thanks to whomever posted that the TPI facility in Portland has S&T instructors!
Posted 08 Sep 2008 at 12:56pm #
I think that S&T is a great thing to try out if you're having issues with poor weight shift or hitting shots fat. As those were my two problems when mis-hitting shots, I decided to give S&T a try about a month ago.
My bottom line: I'm hitting my irons more solidly that I ever have -- beautiful trajectory, with amazing spin -- and use a club less on all shots.
I have found that I can't use the "textbook" Stack and Tilt for my Driver, as I seem to come in too steep -- and it's not worth it for me to REALLY work at revamping that swing, as I already hit my woods fairly well. One side benefit, however, is that the S&T principles caused me to be more steady over the ball even when (slightlty) shifting weight for the woods, resulting in better contact.
All in all, I'm enjoying my game more than I ever have, and I feel like my swing is smoother. If my swing goes off, I think of two keys -- is my weight staying forward, and am I stacked over the ball -- and everything else falls in place.
I just MIGHT be able to get my son interested in golf again with Stack and Tilt...
Posted 09 Sep 2008 at 11:51am #
Iwent to the driving range this weekend and worked out the woods problem that I have been having with the S&T. I am still using the S&T but my swing thoughts are to bring the club further inside, position the ball forward, swing through at a more level position and down the line, and get a full finish. I am no longer thinking of getting my butt under my torso but I ain't looking at myself so I do not know. I am starting with the weight 50/50 and tilting forward from there.
I played 18 holes on a par 72. The front 9 was terrible for me because of mental errors and poor putting. The second nine was very good. I ended up with 45 - 39, with ten fairways and ten greens in regulation which is good for me.
Posted 10 Sep 2008 at 1:28pm #
I have found that once you stack and favor your weight to the front foot (left for right handers) that the tilt part is something you really don't need to think about. It's more of a reaction because if you follow the backswing routine (shoulders around head, head still, club and hands on inward path), then to return to the ball you have to tilt. Just my opinion that if you try to force the standing up at the end it will not be natural. Nothing works like video tape or a mirror.
JMO.
Bill
Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 12:56pm #
I went back to the driving range and tried S&T again. This time I was hitting the ball solid and straight but not gaining more distance. I used mostly my irons. I am wondering if I am doing it right so can you please give comments and advice or tips.
Here's my setup and swing with a 7 iron:
I setup with ball at the middle of my stance. The weight is more on my left side (right handed). One piece take-away with the club and arms going around my body while the body is rotating on an axis. Meanwhile the right leg is straightening and the left leg bending and left shoulder dipping towards the ball or target line putting more weight on the left side.. There is no manipulation of the hands, no rotation.
On the downswing, the club, arms and right shoulder rotates around the body and the body rotating on an axis and the upper right arm closed to the body. Again no manipulation of hands. After impact the arms continue rotating and left leg straightening and the body facing the target.
Any comments is greatly appreciated.
Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 1:26pm #
Golf-fore: If you can hit more greens in regulation, who cares if you do not get more distance. You end up with more distance just by hitting the ball straighter anyway.
Posted 18 Sep 2008 at 10:37am #
Would like to hear from anyone regarding this swing vs. conventional with regards to weight shift/ hip clearance. Personally, I have tried every drill know to mankind and I can't seem to clear my hips/ shift my weight on the downswing properly. Those of you that have adopted this swing, would you say that it would help with this problem? Thanks.
Posted 18 Sep 2008 at 1:58pm #
Well, I'm still muttering along, trying to finally get ahold on this stack-n-tilt stuff. I just wanted to maybe run some stuff by you all and see if I'm on the right track. When I first started I was shanking them all over the map. Today at lunch, I went out to a field behind work to try some things to maybe get a grasp of this swing. I concentrated on getting my weight on my target side and while maintaining the flying wedge (rght wrist angle)throughtout the swing, I just mainly turned my upper body back and thru and was able to at least hit some decent shots. Should I be concentrating on just moving the upper body or am I way off base. Thanks for your help.
Posted 18 Sep 2008 at 4:11pm #
Frustrated said on September 18, 2008:
Frustrated - I have read the articles and bought the DVDs. One thing I got out of the DVDs is that your weight not only shifts left during the backswing, but also that the weight should continue to shift left on the downswing. So my swing thoughts are ILL - Inside, Left and Left. Hands Inside, Shift left on backswing and shift left on downswing. I understand the concept of the flying wedge, but I am trying to keep my hands and thoughts of my hands out of the equation.
Posted 18 Sep 2008 at 4:30pm #
I have seen many information about how to execute the swing. Now I want to summarize which are the FUNDAMENTALS that Plummer and Bennett describe for the S&T in the first DVD. According to their explanation, the three fundamentals of every good player are not the grip, stance, alignment, ball position... Every good player has a different one and all of them can play perfectly. The THREE FUNDAMENTALS for a good swing are:
1 - Hit the ground in the same spot every time
2 - Hit the ball with enough power
3 - Control the curvature of the ball
1// HIT THE GROUND IN THE SAME SPOT (ahead of the ball)
Tip 1 --> Keep the weight forward.
Tip 2 --> Use the Flying Wedge (the angle of the right hand and forearm) to control the circumference of the swing. This is the same as keeping the hands ahead of the club at address and the same at impact position.
2// HIT THE BALL WITH ENOUGH POWER
Tip 1 --> Hands path: move the arms inward (20º inside).
Tip 2 --> Increase wrist angle in the backswing to add power.
Tip 3 --> Turn your shoulder in a circle and keep the head still.
3// CONTROLLING THE CURVATURE OF THE BALL
Tip 1 --> The curvature depends on where the weight is in relation to the ball position. There is a clear difference if the club hits the ball before or after the point of tangency of the circle:
a) Weight forward: the club hits the ball from the inside before reaching the point of tangency --> Draw or Push.
b) Weigh backward: the club hits the ball on the forward side of the circle cutting across the ball --> Slice or Pull.
Tip 2 --> The ball´s curve is controlled by the angle of the face in relation with the path of the club.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I want to add a video where they tell some of these ideas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_YepJ3wSs
I have been surprised after viewing the DVD because in no place there was told anything about keeping the flying wedge all over the swing. Even, they think is one of the 2 most important pieces of this swing!! and it was not commented in the GD articles neither in any internet site ¿¿??
Posted 19 Sep 2008 at 1:13pm #
I have found this site with a good summary of the DVDs and explanation of keeping the “flying wedge” all over the swing:
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175425&st=0&p=1156714&#entry1156714
Basically what they explain is that keeping the flying wedge -or keeping the hands ahead of the club till impact- ( not breaking the right wrist angle with the forearm ) avoid casting the club and this way the radius of the swing is maintained constant from address to impact . This a fundamental piece to hit the ground in the same spot every time.
If you don´t keep the flying wedge your radius increases as consequence of casting the club; and you will hit the ground before the ball.
Posted 24 Sep 2008 at 9:48pm #
I switched for a couple of reasons, but the main reason was because of my back. I switched in June and my back has not been in pain yet. I used to pop a couple of Advil every time I played. I can hit 300 balls a day and be fine the next morning.
I used to watch Jack Nicklaus and try and copy his swing as kid. Some people remember Jack Nicklaus My Way videos. That's how I learned the swing, well was till this guy named Tiger comes a long and changes the way everybody swings. Don't lift the left leg and straighten the right leg. So I spent the money on a coach that teaches some high profile women on tour. He is friends with Butch Harmon and taught basically the same swing. I did get to a +3.5 ghin with him.
Even though I was playing well, I couldn't hit the amount of balls to be great because of my back. So when I heard about this swing I said this swing looks like what I did as a kid.
I found out that the first time out is great then it's a struggle the next few times out. You have to give any swing change a long time to kick in. People say it's about 2-3,00 balls for 1 change in a swing. I bought the DVDs and love them. Every time I hit a bad shot now I know why. A must get if you make the change.
I got the chance to watch Aarron Baddeley and ask him some questions about his swing and I am now convinced it's the right swing for me. You don't lose distance at all his 7 iron goes 176yds thats long enough for me.
Posted 25 Sep 2008 at 12:00pm #
I've been trying Stack & Tilt for a few weeks now. It made sense to me to try, since my chipping and pitching has improved this year due to keeping my weight on my left side, which produces nice, crisp chips and pitches. I started with a couple of sessions at the range with mostly wedges and short irons. I was getting nice ball flight and solid shots. The misses were a hook, which I could tone down by weakening my grip a little bit. Overall, the misses were a lot more acceptable than with my traditional swing. I've noticed maybe a half a club increase in irons distance with S&T. I played my first round last weekend using S&T with mixed results. I was hitting more greens, but not in regulation due to struggling off the tee. My biggest challenge will be to engrain a setup and preshot routine without giving it too much thought. After years of honing a preshot routine and subconciously being able to get into a good setup, I'm finding myself abandoning simple things like alignment and a consistent routine, since I'm focusing so much on S&T swing thoughts. Also, until I groove a reliable driver swing with S&T, I'm forced to use my old swing, and conflicting swing thoughts on the tee might be a tough thing to overcome in the short term.
So if anyone has had any success in limiting preshot swing thoughts to one or two simple things, I would love to hear it. Overall, I'm sticking with it, because I really think once it becomes routine I'll be able to experience improvement- which is something I wasn't doing with my old swing.