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post #451 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Cool I think I am going to buy this along with the iPhone app :)
post #452 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

The App is free :) I definitely want to purchase the software too, but the only reason I'm hesitating is that this is my first season playing (and not nearly as much as I'd like), so I don't feel like buying the software, using it 2-3 times, and then having to pay for an upgrade next summer (instead of just waiting to buy the full thing next summer). Opinions? It looks like a great tool though!

Thx!

Cheers,
post #453 of 502
Thread Starter 

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by he4dhuntr View Post
The App is free :) I definitely want to purchase the software too, but the only reason I'm hesitating is that this is my first season playing (and not nearly as much as I'd like), so I don't feel like buying the software, using it 2-3 times, and then having to pay for an upgrade next summer (instead of just waiting to buy the full thing next summer). Opinions? It looks like a great tool though!
Nobody's really told us anything to improve, so right now we're in maintenance mode. We're adding a stat or two to Scorecard 2 but there's no reason we'll upgrade to 3 until we have an actual reason to do so.
post #454 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Nobody's really told us anything to improve, so right now we're in maintenance mode. We're adding a stat or two to Scorecard 2 but there's no reason we'll upgrade to 3 until we have an actual reason to do so.
I've got a whole list of things that you could add... If you're interested in feature requests and I'll put a list together.
post #455 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by rebby View Post
I've got a whole list of things that you could add... If you're interested in feature requests and I'll put a list together.
I've got some suggestions too. And if you like them I'd be happy to beta test. (Kidding. Well, sort of )
post #456 of 502
Thread Starter 

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by rebby View Post
I've got a whole list of things that you could add... If you're interested in feature requests and I'll put a list together.
Originally Posted by jamo View Post
I've got some suggestions too. And if you like them I'd be happy to beta test. (Kidding. Well, sort of )
Sure. Thing is, anything we add has to add value and not add much to the "cost of use" (i.e. time it takes to enter scores).

Things like "driving distance" or "where you miss the green" are pointless and won't be added.
post #457 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Sure. Thing is, anything we add has to add value and not add much to the "cost of use" (i.e. time it takes to enter scores).

Things like "driving distance" or "where you miss the green" are pointless and won't be added.
I agree. I'd rather not get into a situation where I needed to enter more information. I think this is at the perfect level as it is.

What I'd like to see is more with the statistics and being able to generate reports. Statistics/reports is what I use to really understand my game, strengths and weaknesses.

Anyway, off the top of my head...
  • Statistics - I like the ability to set a "starting point" based on the markers but I'd really like to break down the statistics by date, starting date and ending date. I'd really love to generate a report broken down on a weekly or monthly basis as well. I realize that I have the ability to do this via graphs (somewhat) but I'm a numbers person, I'd love to see a report that will group rounds over a given time period (vs graphs that are based on single rounds). This would be very helpful to go over with an instructor to determine how things are progressing from week to week as well. ETA: Maybe even expand the graphs to use weekly or monthly averages as well?
  • Course Hole by Hole Report - You can do this via the Statistics window but it's a laborious process. Having these statistics broke down hole by hole (for a given course) can be valuable information. I use this information to reassess how I approach given holes from round to round.
  • Standard Deviation - Sorry, I know I said that I wouldn't mention this again but... nothing wrong with more advanced statistics. This is one statistic that I put a lot of value in since it's a measure of consistency.
  • Website Export - Would be FANTASTIC to filter statistics by date in the website export. Not sure how this would work in a pure HTML export though. Maybe filtered statistics based only on markers?

As I said before, those are just off the top of my head. Basically I'd just like more power over the statistics view and some sort of reporting engine. If I spent some time attempting to reverse engineer the database, I'm sure that this would be a pretty easy module to build myself but I hate to do that since then I'd have to maintain it. Then again, if there is some documentation on the inner workings of the database....
post #458 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Sure. Thing is, anything we add has to add value and not add much to the "cost of use" (i.e. time it takes to enter scores).

Things like "driving distance" or "where you miss the green" are pointless and won't be added.
I've seen you say this before and I have to say that I don't understand the wholesale rejection of these as worthwhile statistics. It seems to be a decision that they're not of interest to you, but it seems that many golfers disagree. Personally, I really wish that I could record tee shot club, and driving distance would be nice as well, although I don't currently have a method to measure it accurately so I am less worried about that at the moment.

Tee shot club would be nice so, e.g., I could evaluate whether I'm enough more accurate with my 3W or hybrid to make up for the loss of distance. Driving distance, in addition to simply being a statistic of interest, could be somewhat helpful in understanding unusual hole scores. Also, since you don't allow a "missed short" or "shanked" fairway miss, one might want to filter out results for holes where a tee shot was anomalously short.

In any case, I don't mean to start a debate here, but just to give you the data point that some of your users disagree with your assessment of those statistics. While I appreciate the goal of keeping the number of stats to a manageable one, I personally think allowing the user a bit more flexibility to decide which stats are important to his game would be an improvement.
post #459 of 502
Thread Starter 

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by rebby View Post
I agree. I'd rather not get into a situation where I needed to enter more information. I think this is at the perfect level as it is.
And to pre-answer zeg, if you prompt a user for stats a LOT of them will think they need to add them.

I'll play a bit of devil's advocate here. People don't seem to understand that, so I'm pointing it out explicitly here. If the idea's good and you believe it, push for it or overcome my objections with sound reasoning, fact, or something.

Originally Posted by rebby View Post
[*]Statistics - I like the ability to set a "starting point" based on the markers but I'd really like to break down the statistics by date, starting date and ending date. I'd really love to generate a report broken down on a weekly or monthly basis as well. I realize that I have the ability to do this via graphs (somewhat) but I'm a numbers person, I'd love to see a report that will group rounds over a given time period (vs graphs that are based on single rounds). This would be very helpful to go over with an instructor to determine how things are progressing from week to week as well.
You can do this now. Just turn off and on all of your rounds. Cmd-T on the Mac or ctrl-T (I believe) on Windows. This will enable or disable the rounds for stats. Then you can view any stat you want and it'll only pull the rounds from those that are still enabled.

Plus, of course, once you copy your stats out for one week you won't need to do it again...

Originally Posted by rebby View Post
Course Hole by Hole Report - You can do this via the Statistics window but it's a laborious process. Having these statistics broke down hole by hole (for a given course) can be valuable information. I use this information to reassess how I approach given holes from round to round.
It can be tedious but how often do you re-assess how you play a hole? You click a few times and there's hole 1. Click once more to move to hole 2. Click again to move to hole 3... and on down the line. Do you know how large a report would be for every stat on 18 holes (for just one tee)? Well, 18 times larger than it is now, roughly.

Originally Posted by rebby View Post
Standard Deviation - Sorry, I know I said that I wouldn't mention this again but... nothing wrong with more advanced statistics. This is one statistic that I put a lot of value in since it's a measure of consistency.
I know what it does, but think it's largely overkill. Some days you eagle the par five, some days you triple bogey it... but in the end the average is going to be the number 99.8% of people want.

Originally Posted by rebby View Post
Website Export - Would be FANTASTIC to filter statistics by date in the website export. Not sure how this would work in a pure HTML export though. Maybe filtered statistics based only on markers?
Maybe, but it's more likely that we'll try to build in our own hosting solution so everyone can actually host their statistics instead of expanding on the statistics. You're in a small group, rebby - most people don't even use half the statistics we already generate let alone want MORE and stuff like standard deviation.

We'll talk. Maybe we can hide some things behind an "Advanced Mode." But I don't know if adding an Advanced mode makes sense in two ways: 1) our time and effort to write it, and 2) compelling enough for 2.x users to upgrade to 3.0.

Originally Posted by rebby View Post
As I said before, those are just off the top of my head. Basically I'd just like more power over the statistics view and some sort of reporting engine. If I spent some time attempting to reverse engineer the database, I'm sure that this would be a pretty easy module to build myself but I hate to do that since then I'd have to maintain it. Then again, if there is some documentation on the inner workings of the database....
The database is actually quite simple to figure out. It's SQLite, I'll tell you that much.

Originally Posted by zeg View Post
I've seen you say this before and I have to say that I don't understand the wholesale rejection of these as worthwhile statistics. It seems to be a decision that they're not of interest to you, but it seems that many golfers disagree.
zeg, I don't reject them out of hand and a lot of golfers might disagree (it's nowhere near a majority - we've had requests for it from fewer than 20 people), but to this point I think they're wrong.

First off, driving distance is affected by conditions, wind, elevation, doglegs, trees, and last but not least the club you hit off the tee. I play a course with several par fours off which I hit a hybrid. Second, people can't accurately measure their drives. They'll make things up, take the course yardage and ignore that they sliced it around a dogleg, whatever. People can't accurately measure their drives.

As for "I missed the green short and left" there's a reason the PGA Tour doesn't even keep this stat - it makes no sense. As I've said before missing short and left with a front-left pin is one thing. Missing short-left with a back-right pin is another thing entirely. Does the green slope back to front or front to back? What was the wind doing? Where's the trouble - maybe there's water long? Or short? Were you in between clubs? There's no way - NO way - to quantify "I missed the green in x spot."

Now, if you put these statistics in, people will expect that they have to enter it. They'll see an interface that says "Please put eight points of data in" instead of five. It looks more confusing, it will clearly take much longer to enter in the stats (not to mention keeping them on your scorecard during the round), and all for minimal to no actual gain. More cluttered and daunting interface, extra work required by the user, no actual gain. Doesn't sound like a winning decision to me.

Originally Posted by zeg View Post
In any case, I don't mean to start a debate here, but just to give you the data point that some of your users disagree with your assessment of those statistics. While I appreciate the goal of keeping the number of stats to a manageable one, I personally think allowing the user a bit more flexibility to decide which stats are important to his game would be an improvement.
Part of software development is making decisions for users. That might sound like a bit of a God complex type thing, but every product you buy has had hundreds of decisions made for you, and I mean it in that way, not some sort of vindictive or mean way.

Apple products get roasted for not having oodles of functionality. Microsoft products get blasted for being bloatware. Who just surpassed whom in terms of market cap? The Apple method is the better way to go - simpler, streamlined, efficient. Do the things you do and do them well - don't just throw everything in there because a few people want it.

Does Apple sometimes go too far? Sure. So did we in 1.0 - we didn't include support for nine-hole rounds, after all! We - like Apple - fix it in 2.0 based on customer feedback and sound reasoning.

P.S. zeg, if you want to test your theory about hitting shorter clubs off the tee, create a new set of tees. If you normally play from the "Blue" tees, rename them the "Distance" tees. Create a new set of tees and name them the "Accuracy" tees. When you play a round where you hit driver all day put the round in the Distance tees. When you play and try to hit hybrid all day, or 3W, put the round under the Accuracy tees. Compare your stats after five or six rounds on each "course." (You may want to keep the scorecards from your "Accuracy" tees if you're going to delete that set of tees after you have your answer and re-enter the rounds in your "Blue" tees).
post #460 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
And to pre-answer zeg, if you prompt a user for stats a LOT of them will think they need to add them...
I understand where you are coming from, but I think (at least for me, I can't speak to what other people want) I wouldn't mind adding more data points and more stats. The one I would like the most is approach shot club. It would be great because you would (presumably pretty easily, but I'm no programmer) be able to track GIR and proximity to hole for every club in your bag. And it would only require one more data point, It wouldn't even be that hard to input, just one number. But if that's not the direction you want to go in, so be it.
post #461 of 502
Thread Starter 

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by jamo View Post
I understand where you are coming from, but I think (at least for me, I can't speak to what other people want) I wouldn't mind adding more data points and more stats.
Yes, and that's beside the point. You're not every user. If we added every bit of data people wanted, even the most hard-core user would not want to use the software because entering a round would take 30 minutes instead of 30 seconds. You'd have to hire your own ShotLink employees or something!

Originally Posted by jamo View Post
But if that's not the direction you want to go in, so be it.
Here you go: you're farther from the hole the longer your club is. I've calculated your statistics without you even knowing it.

Right now we have incredibly good density - with five numbers we can calculate a bunch of stats - let's be conservative and say 35. You want us to add one additional data point and get, what, one real stat out of it?

Plus, from a golfer's perspective, there are a lot of problems with that shot. Again, you can't take conditions into effect at all. I've hit 7I from 220 yards (downhill, or downwind, or want to bounce it in on firm conditions...) and I've hit 7I from 100 yards if I wanted to play that kind of shot. Additionally, there's no way to measure whether you're going for a tucked pin or playing to the center of the green. Also, our club database would have to include perhaps as many as 50 clubs. What do you call a 26-degree hybrid, for example? Do you include separate entries for a 13 degree 3W, a 14, and a 15? What about the 13.5's? Do you force everyone into "gap/pitching/sand/lob" wedge or do you list all the lofts? What about people who change their set makeup from time to time?

We didn't arrive at the stats we have haphazardly and we haven't resisted adding certain stats "just because." We've given it a lot of thought. It would be easy to add the stat you've just asked for - the UI is easy to figure out and the stats are easy to calculate. It'd be easy to add to the database schema too.
post #462 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

I agree the system needs to be kept simple....just by having the putt length stat to enter I would say this adds at least 30% of the total time to entry. One stat I agree shoul dbe added though is club from tee. It is huge to know what your accuracy is with certain clubs from the tee.
post #463 of 502
Thread Starter 

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by Cuzziebro View Post
I agree the system needs to be kept simple....just by having the putt length stat to enter I would say this adds at least 30% of the total time to entry.
And yet that single point of data generates five, six, seven stats. Currently, I can enter a round in Scorecard in about 30 seconds. Tabs, the arrows, and the number keys (the collection on the right) make it a snap.

Your "club from the tee" question was discussed above and a workable solution provided.
post #464 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
And yet that single point of data generates five, six, seven stats. Currently, I can enter a round in Scorecard in about 30 seconds. Tabs, the arrows, and the number keys (the collection on the right) make it a snap.

Your "club from the tee" question was discussed above and a workable solution provided.
Yes I agree with the putt length stat. Although I could never enter a round in 30 secs, remembering all putt lengths etc....mind you only takes me 2-3 mins which is more than acceptable. Don't get me wrong, software is great which is the reason I have chosen this over so many other options.

The Club from tee solution isn't really a solution. I don't have "rounds" of using accuracy clubs and then different rounds using driver. I mix these clubs within a round and want to know whether taking the accuracy clubs off the tee is worth the loss in distance for accuracy. I don't think having the distance of drives available is right, for the reasons you say....but to have the option of entering a tee club would be gold.
post #465 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Iacas, I appreciate your giving some detailed reasoning, and I've done enough software development to know what you're saying about having to make decisions for the end user. Scorecard and its associated App are very nice, about the best I've seen, and I certainly respect your decisions and you've made very good choices for the solution you're after. From a raw statistics perspective, I understand your thinking. However, I find that it limits my ability to look back at rounds and understand what was going on. There are a few quantitative things that I think could be done, but largely it's that I want to be able to better recreate my round, and the tee club and distance are things I feel are important to that, even with the caveats you raise. (As for "where I missed the green", I don't actually have any desire for that and hadn't ever contemplated such a thing, so I'm on board with you on that one.) As it is, I occasionally use the hole notes feature to describe what happened, but that's a lot more cumbersome than an extra pull-down and a number entry or spinner dial.

Like Cuzz said, I don't really think the accuracy or distance round solution is workable for me. I don't get out often enough that I'm going to dedicate an entire round to playing a different strategy, it's info I really need hole-by-hole.

My feeling is that you could get away with adding optional stats without turning your software into a quagmire. Particularly by choosing defaults that use your current philosophy, people would only be overwhelmed if they sought it out. For me, that would make Scorecard better match what I'm after, and I think it could be done in a user-friendly way.
post #466 of 502
Thread Starter 

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Originally Posted by Cuzziebro View Post
Yes I agree with the putt length stat. Although I could never enter a round in 30 secs, remembering all putt lengths etc....
Just at tip... do you not write them (the distances) down on your card? The Scorecard manual shows you how I write them down. When I get home it just becomes a matter of typing:

3 (tab) 4 (tab) 4 (tab) 5 (tab) 4 (tab) 4 (tab)... *
left arrow (tab) up arrow (tab) up arrow (tab) up arrow (tab) right arrow (tab)...
1 (tab) (tab) (tab) (tab) (tab)...*
16 (tab) 30 (tab) 14 (tab) 15 (tab) 26 (tab) ....
Then I click a few times to signify UD or SS and I'm done. I can use the keyboard for that but it tends to be faster for me to use the mouse. We should look into combining these into one row, with UD left and right and SS as up and down, perhaps.

* Technically since pars are filled out I could just tab through them but it's faster for me to just type the numbers. Because 2 putts are filled out, though, I can tab over all the putts that are "2" and just enter the 0s and 1s.

I don't even look at the screen. I just look at the card. I know I'm probably faster than most but it's still okay.

(Where I do spend a lot of time, perhaps five minutes, is the notes entry.)

Originally Posted by Cuzziebro View Post
mind you only takes me 2-3 mins which is more than acceptable. Don't get me wrong, software is great which is the reason I have chosen this over so many other options.
You should be able to get that down to a minute or so.

Originally Posted by Cuzziebro View Post
The Club from tee solution isn't really a solution. I don't have "rounds" of using accuracy clubs and then different rounds using driver. I mix these clubs within a round and want to know whether taking the accuracy clubs off the tee is worth the loss in distance for accuracy. I don't think having the distance of drives available is right, for the reasons you say....but to have the option of entering a tee club would be gold.
I think that software can only do so much, and when you get into things like this it's a matter of your own game. Again, this would add one new data point with relatively few stats to be generated from it.

I think you're missing out a little on simply observing things. For example, you probably know how far you hit your driver, your 3W, and your hybrid. How accurate are you with them? Do you not know?

I also think you're missing out on just playing golf. There are rounds when I try to drive this particular hole at Whispering Woods - a par four - because even if I just get close it's a good play. There are other times I hit 5I from the tee. "What club to choose from the tee" is an amalgamation of your years of experience playing that hole as well as your feeling RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT.

Still playing devil's advocate a bit. The biggest point for me is the first one three paragraphs up - relatively little data (and relatively useless data for players who are observant and relatively useless because how you feel and how you're hitting certain clubs changes day to day) for one entirely new data point.

Originally Posted by zeg View Post
However, I find that it limits my ability to look back at rounds and understand what was going on.
Can this not be solved a fair amount by making better use of the Notes field. You only add short notes to a few holes. Look at my rounds - more detail and notes on every hole, including clubs, yardages, and so on.

Originally Posted by zeg View Post
There are a few quantitative things that I think could be done, but largely it's that I want to be able to better recreate my round, and the tee club and distance are things I feel are important to that, even with the caveats you raise.
Originally Posted by zeg View Post
(As for "where I missed the green", I don't actually have any desire for that and hadn't ever contemplated such a thing, so I'm on board with you on that one.)
I see that as almost the same thing as "tee club and distance." Perhaps even worse, because if we added "where I missed the green" at least most people would see that they're ALWAYS short. Heh heh.

Originally Posted by zeg View Post
As it is, I occasionally use the hole notes feature to describe what happened, but that's a lot more cumbersome than an extra pull-down and a number entry or spinner dial.
Yes, but now you're guilty of thinking that what you want is what everyone wants. The notes field was asked for by more than 20x as many people as have ever asked for driving distance DESPITE the fact that there's been no request for the notes field since 2.0 was released (since it included it). We keep detailed stats on requests because that's how we've learned to build software - a combination of "what users say they want" and "what we want to add." Thus far neither side of this equation is adding up to "put it in the software."

Originally Posted by zeg View Post
Like Cuzz said, I don't really think the accuracy or distance round solution is workable for me. I don't get out often enough that I'm going to dedicate an entire round to playing a different strategy, it's info I really need hole-by-hole.
At some point, again, it comes down to playing golf. A big part of that is being faced with a decision - do I risk hitting driver here even if it's not as accurate or am I okay hitting a 7I to the green from the fairway than a wedge from the fairway or rough?

Originally Posted by zeg View Post
My feeling is that you could get away with adding optional stats without turning your software into a quagmire. Particularly by choosing defaults that use your current philosophy, people would only be overwhelmed if they sought it out. For me, that would make Scorecard better match what I'm after, and I think it could be done in a user-friendly way.
That's something I can almost say with certainty we won't be doing - turning on and off data entry pieces like that. It's one thing to have an "Advanced" stats mode, but it's another thing entirely to add an advanced data entry mode with extra stats. Among other reasons, imagine how you'd feel if I told you right now that this data entry has existed all along but you never enabled it. While you'd be glad that you could enter it going forward, you'd feel as if your old stats are almost worthless and you'd be ticked.

Also, with the stats we have now we can fairly safely assume that people will include them all. If we start to add more stats AND people enable them, we're not guaranteed they're going to put them all down for every hole. Then the statistics themselves become virtually meaningless.

People don't like to feel like they're missing out or not using everything an application gives to them. Again, nobody's overcome my most basic objection: that adding this stat to the UI adds more clutter than it adds statistical value.

zeg - your handicap says you're a 30 right now. I'm going to make some generalizations that may not apply to you, but I'll use 30 as an example...

A scratch or good player doesn't need a table in an application to know whether he hits his driver or 3W more accurately or how far. They're honest with themselves and they observe how they're playing. They have a fairly finely tuned decision engine.

A 30 handicapper doesn't need a table in an application to know whether he hits his driver or 3W more accurately or how far. They should practice their entire game, their short game, their putting. They're focusing on the wrong things if they're looking at charts showing driver vs. 3W accuracy and scoring.

Those two things speak to the "value." And that's why there have been almost no requests for it.

In general, Scorecard appeals to people who are about 5.0 to 15.0 golfers. I'd guess 90% of our user base fits into that range. Why? Because not only is that the majority of golfers, but the better players tend to know what their stats are (or think they do), and the players with handicaps higher than 15 or 18 or so tend not to care enough to spend $25 and enter rounds when they're done. So they aren't customers.

Is it possible, zeg, that what I'm telling you is for your own good? That even though you think you need these stats, that you don't really? And that if you feel that you do, you can make more use of the notes field?

I'm guilty of this too - as a user you tend to think the feature you want is really important. It almost becomes a personal crusade, and you tend to focus in on it a bit. As the developer we can't do that at all. We have to take the opposite approach. This isn't personal (I hope by using you or your handicap as an example I didn't muddy those waters)... and I mean that in a personal, sincere way.
post #467 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

erik,

i've just began using the scorecard s/w on my mac and iphone. it is quite simple to use and view stats (used other demo apps and softwares before). i have about 10 rounds entered so far and used all features except for length of 1st putt. using the tab and arrow keys, i can enter a new round/course on the mac in about 3-4 min including the UD and SSs.

reading through all the suggestions and comments, there are so many ways you could make the app complicated to suit every user's needs. but keeping things simple is what makes this app a winner!

i missed out on the discount for the software license, but still a good investment for someone who is aspiring to be better at the game one round at a time.

~ rey
post #468 of 502

Re: Scorecard: Golf Statistics Software (Mac/Windows)

Here's a quick dumb question: does chipping in for birdie count as a successful up & down? I'm guessing yes, but is that how the PGA count it as well?
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