sandbaggers

**crissmillputters** · March 5, 2008

so, everyear i play in a couple of member/guests golf outings, they are pretty big and pretty rewarding, im an 8 and my partner is a 23, we ham and egg it pretty good, BUT.......its so wierd when im posting 39's ,40's and my competition who might be a 15 or 16 hdcp is posting the same, im giving them strokes and they are killin me, im out there to have fun but it really sucks when some one (lots of someones) is such a sandbagger for a title...any suggestions? oh yeah..its usually the memebers guests, because a memeber would get there butt chewed out by other members

**Shindig** · March 5, 2008

so, everyear i play in a couple of member/guests golf outings, they are pretty big and pretty rewarding, im an 8 and my partner is a 23, we ham and egg it pretty good, BUT.......its so wierd when im posting 39's ,40's and my competition who might be a 15 or 16 hdcp is posting the same, im giving them strokes and they are killin me, im out there to have fun but it really sucks when some one (lots of someones) is such a sandbagger for a title...any suggestions? oh yeah..its usually the members guests, because a member would get there butt chewed out by other members

Check out

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html on Dean Knuth's website. Knuth invented the slope-rating system used today. In particular, look at http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html - the odds of a 16-handicapper shooting 40 for 9-holes. Let's extrapolate that to 80 for 18 holes (I don't know if this is a valid extrapolation, but go with it) with a course-rating of 72.0 and slope 113 (chosen to make the math easy). The 16-handicapper just beat his handicap by 8 strokes, with odds 1138:1. Call him out on it. And if it happens multiple times (happening twice is odds of more than one million to one), and it's a guest of the same guy both times, call the member out on it for bringing a sandbagger with him. If you suspect sandbagging, make damn sure that all tournament scores are reported to the USGA affiliate from whom handicaps are used and make sure they're reported as tournament scores. Make it known that you do this and sandbaggers will be, at worst, a one-time a year nuisance.

**crissmillputters** · March 5, 2008

i have called them out on it, usually its 5 nine hole matches against different 2-somes and its always 2 out of the 5 that are sandbaggers.....there comment "wow" i sure am having a round of my life" thats before we even call them on it.....i guess i should just play my game and not care, but it really takes the fun out of it........just sucks, Thanks for the link tho

**Shindig** · March 5, 2008

i have called them out on it, usually its 5 nine hole matches against different 2-somes and its always 2 out of the 5 that are sandbaggers.....there comment "wow" i sure am having a round of my life" thats before we even call them on it.....i guess i should just play my game and not care, but it really takes the fun out of it........just sucks, Thanks for the link tho

He has a list of excuses on his site, and "I'm having the round of my life" is usually on it.

Here's a hint: if most anyone thinks during the round that they're having the round of their life, they're going to start having worse scores on remaining holes until they are back to their "comfort level." It's the same reason that "you only need to bogey out to break scoring barrier X" leads to doubles and triples.

**gogolfing** · March 5, 2008

It does take the fun out of it. A while ago I was a spare in a Men's League so would fill in on different teams that needed me. As it turned out I played the same guy three times in one particular season. He was claiming to be a 19, and I was giving him five a side. In the 3 matches I played him (they were nine hole matches) I never made it past the 7th, and I played well. It's tough when you make a string of pars and are still losing ground. Every time I see the porch climber at the club, my blood boils a bit. I called him on it, but always the typical "round of my life b.s." No place in the game for guys like this. Everyone gets hot once in a while, but it was more than luck when it happened 3 times in one season.

**srjorion** · March 5, 2008

I have to laugh. I was playing in a friendly, unofficial, tournament at my work when I first arrived. Nothing large scale or serious, only about 24 people. Anyway, they asked me what my handicap was and I didn't have one. I said I normally shoot in the low 90s (the truth) and they come up with holes I get points on based on that.

Well, turns out I shoot the best round I ever shot, seriously. I didn't win, but I totally felt like an ass reporting what I shot. All I could think of is how everyone would think I fudged my numbers to do better.

(Un)Fortunately I was able to prove to them that I really wasn't that good later

**greenail** · March 5, 2008

I am currently a 14 on both of my home courses, I regularly shoot 39's for 9 holes. That does not mean I have 39 on the back, but I think 9 holes is easier to score, than keeping a round going for 18. Today I shot an 88, but lost 7 strokes in the last 4 holes. Some of us are streaky, some people shoot the same front, back, almost every round. Does having the ability to shoot a 39 one every 4-5 rounds make me a sandbagger?

There are two main types of sandbaggers, the cheating kind, and the cheating themselves kind. I tend to think there are more reverse-sandbaggers than the high posting type. I see people giving themselves 6-3 footers all round and then wondering why they didn't do so well in a tournament where they had to grind those putts out.

There are also unconscious incompetent sandbaggers who just plain don't know the rules, and score wrong. You see this more on public tracks than private, however I have been shocked to see people break rules in total ignorance of them at my own club.

**Shindig** · March 6, 2008

There are also unconscious incompetent sandbaggers who just plain don't know the rules, and score wrong. You see this more on public tracks than private, however I have been shocked to see people break rules in total ignorance of them at my own club.

This is a good point that I frequently forget whenever this topic comes up. Many people hit OB and treat it as a lateral hazard. As far as pace of play is concerned, this may be a good thing. But if they're reporting that towards handicap, it may hurt them. Similar things could cause higher handicaps than they might otherwise have.

**crissmillputters** · March 6, 2008

(geennail) nice pic btw, anyway, I understand your point and you should post a 39 once in awhile on you HOME course, you know it, and you know it well, but when they(members guests) are posting 39s' at a 16 hdcp, at a course they play once a year at the toughest condition the mgment can put them at, i have to scratch my head sometimes........thanks for your input

connor35 · March 6, 2008

Statistically if you're playing in a stroke play event with a large number of groups, high handicappers will usually win these events.

High handicappers also have high variability. An 18 handicap may vary 30 strokes from round to round. A low handicap has little variability.

So in a big group of high handicaps, someone is going to go low. He's not a sandbagger, chances are that one will have a good day.

**crissmillputters** · March 7, 2008

Are you saying a 18 handicap one day will shoot a 95 and then the next day shoot a 125? yes there is a higher variability but thats a little overboard, im not talking about a 16 hdcp'er who shoots one (1)39 and (4)47's, yes that happens,........ in this 5 day tourny .... "the sandbaggers" are consisitant.......

connor35 · March 7, 2008

Are you saying a 18 handicap one day will shoot a 95 and then the next day shoot a 125? yes there is a higher variability but thats a little overboard, im not talking about a 16 hdcp'er who shoots one (1)39 and (4)47's, yes that happens,........ in this 5 day tourny .... "the sandbaggers" are consisitant.......

I went back and read your post.

Is it improbable in match play for that to occur. In the one-round stroke play events, its most often a higher handicap that wins. I didn't read your original post carefully enough the first time through.

**Shindig** · March 7, 2008

Are you saying a 18 handicap one day will shoot a 95 and then the next day shoot a 125? yes there is a higher variability but thats a little overboard, im not talking about a 16 hdcp'er who shoots one (1)39 and (4)47's, yes that happens,........ in this 5 day tourny .... "the sandbaggers" are consisitant.......

There is a variance, but the frequency with which it has happened to you causes us to suspect sandbagging on the part of your opponents.

I haven't played a competitive round in 2008, and my handicap has been 23 +/- 1 for the year so far. My rounds so far include a 116 and a 91, three weeks apart. So variance happens, but it's most likely sandbagging in the case of what you're reporting.

**greenail** · March 7, 2008

I shot a 41/49 yesterday, and the 41 had 7-GIR 3-3putt GIRs, 2 < 5ft bird misses, and 2 other bird lipouts so it could have easily been a 36.

the 49 was a disaster started out with a 3-putt 7 and the first putt was only 4'. Ended up with 3 tripples.

**limoric** · March 8, 2008

Join your men's club or tournament committee. My men's club sanctions all 7 of our major tournaments a few of which are big deals. We tabled a policy last year that if a guest of member had no registered handicap with the RCGA or USGA they had to play as scratch. You only have to enter 5 rounds to register a handicap. Every player received plenty of notice to get their rounds in. If a player shot the lights out on day 1, they were moved up a flight on day 2. Our sandbagger problems went away.

**crissmillputters** · March 9, 2008

in this tourny everyone has to hold a hdcp card, I guess maybe im just venting, speading the word, looking for a couple of cleaver quick wit answers or comments to throw out there.........creative solutions, ect......one of those annoying things that bother me, i could easily put a few strokes on my score everytime i play, but thats not me, they even go as far as to check out the guests to see if they are posting the scores on-line or at the course when they finish there round, they are trying to do their part, but the"sandbaggers" always find a way.........Thanks

**limoric** · March 9, 2008

but the"sandbaggers" always find a way.........Thanks

They always will...but they will never win in the end. They have to live with themselves.

**Daddy Golfer** · March 9, 2008

Unfortunately, it's a common issue in leagues and tournaments. I commonly see mid to high handicappers hit very low, even questionable, scores. You just have to go with it, and it may be a legit score so good for them. I know in my tournament league I have to try for those KP's and Long Drives to break even and keep playing well for the point standings, because there is very little chance for me to win rounds against a mid or high handicapper. Our league posts all the scores on GHIN so there is no question there.

Today I shot 82, net 70(12 handicap), came in 2nd. The winner shot 85(18 handicap) for net 67. I know this person does not post all his scores, what can you do... beat em on the next one.

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