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Moe Norman

post #1 of 122
Thread Starter 
As many know, MJonGolf has re-launched (again) and is focusing on the single-axis (i.e. "Moe Norman") golf swing. Here's a comment I posted to his site recently:

First, it's Vijay, not VJ. You know this, and since you're preaching something so "fringe," your detractors are going to look at every way to pick you apart. Not knowing the name of the world #2 is an easy target.

Second, good luck with all of this. You're going to need it, because you're going to get some tough questions. Those questions are going to be like:

a) If this swing is so good, why doesn't anyone swing with it?
b) Why hasn't anyone ever used this swing to win on the PGA Tour?
c) If Moe Norman was so good, why did he not play against - and beat - his conventional-swinging contemporaries?
d) How much distance am I going to give up going to this swing?

You could argue that most people don't use the swing simply because they've never heard of it, but Vijay knows about Moe - as you point out - yet continues to swing in a conventional fashion. The same holds true for Tiger Woods and countless other professionals. Nobody's ever won with a full Moe-like swing (I think someone, who was it, McCarron? McCallister? - used small parts of it and appears in some commercials) on the PGA Tour, and that's not likely to change. Moe may not have competed because of personality quirks, but there's no saying he would have won, either, had he played. It's speculation.

And lastly, nobody's enthralled with accuracy. Chicks dig the long ball... and so do golfers.

Overcoming those hurdles - those objections - is going to take a lot of time and effort. I don't agree that many golfers will reach their potential with the single-axis swing. I think that potential is the upper reaches of someone's abilities, and so long as they're leaving 5-20% of their distance in the bag, they're not going to reach their potential. They may improve or score better more quickly, but the word "potential" is a different beast than "get to be decent more quickly."

Good luck.
Vijay Singh, Tiger Woods, and a lot of other Touring pros all know Moe Norman. They've seen him, done exhibitions with him, and talked about him. Yet the continue to swing the conventional way.

That's pretty damning.

What do you think of the Moe Norman swing? What is your objection to it? Why don't you use it? What do you think of it?
post #2 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

Originally Posted by iacas
As many know, MJonGolf has re-launched (again) and is focusing on the single-axis (i.e. "Moe Norman") golf swing. Here's a comment I posted to his site recently:



Vijay Singh, Tiger Woods, and a lot of other Touring pros all know Moe Norman. They've seen him, done exhibitions with him, and talked about him. Yet the continue to swing the conventional way.

That's pretty damning.

What do you think of the Moe Norman swing? What is your objection to it? Why don't you use it? What do you think of it?
I think it is totally irrelevent. look at swings across the years from the best, say, Nickulas, woods, Palmer, Bobby Jones. Some very different swings here. And look at Count Yogi,, he played as well or better than all of them (wasn't allowed on tour back then because he was Native American) Again totally different. The one common thread was they all started young, copying the swings of the best players they knew until they found what worked for them. There is nothing wrong with a single plane swing if it works for a person, but even among the dual plane convention there are countless contridictions on what one should do. I have taken lessons from several different pros, I take what works for me from each lesson and move on. I'm the only person that can swing my clubs for me, and I have to believe in what I'm doing. For the most part, the things you are suppose to do for a single plane swing just don't seem to work for me.
post #3 of 122
Thread Starter 

Re: Moe Norman

Originally Posted by hig4s
I think it is totally irrelevent. look at swings across the years from the best, say, Nickulas, woods, Palmer, Bobby Jones. Some very different swings here.
Not really. They're all pretty much well on one side of the line, and Moe Norman's swing is clearly on the other. The swings you've listed had a lot more alike than they did different.

Originally Posted by hig4s
And look at Count Yogi,, he played as well or better than all of them (wasn't allowed on tour back then because he was Native American) Again totally different. The one common thread was they all started young, copying the swings of the best players they knew until they found what worked for them. There is nothing wrong with a single plane swing if it works for a person, but even among the dual plane convention there are countless contridictions on what one should do.
"Single Plane" is not really the same thing as the Moe Norman "single axis" swing. Peter Jacobsen was in Golf Digest as moving to a "single plane" player, but he ain't takin' Natural Golf lessons.

So, I'm not sure you're really talking about the same thing here...
post #4 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

Other than the fact that Moe kept the ball away from him and had his arms extended to be straight with the club shaft (which is why it is called single axis) it is a single plane swing.

Also look at the pics.. http://www.moenorman.com/gallery.htm

at full back swing and at contact, he looks the same as Jones, Nickulas, Palmer.

Really I think Count Yogi had one of the most different swings as he intentionally, along with the big hip move (like in natural golf and like Bobby Jones) would sweep the club flatly along the ground and never took divots.

And my point is not everything works for everybody, it worked for Moe and some others, but until someone starts winning on the tour with it is hard take as comparable to what is recognized as correct.

And besides that the Natural Golf system is not exacatlly what Moe did,, He had a hip turn before impact which is not what they teach in NG..

A few years back I played the NG way,, and the more I got away from it and toward the standard way of playing the better I played.. And now I'm adding some of the ideas of Count Yogi and getting better again (but not the sweeping to avoid divots part).

My point is whatever works for a person it the right thing to do...
post #5 of 122
Thread Starter 

Re: Moe Norman

Originally Posted by hig4s
Other than the fact that Moe kept the ball away from him and had his arms extended to be straight with the club shaft (which is why it is called single axis) it is a single plane swing.
I'm not debating whether or not his swing exists in a single plane. I am saying, however, that Moe's swing is not the same as Peter Jacobsen's, for example, or many of the other "single-plane" players we see on the Tours today. Moe's swing was as much like the single-plane "standard" swingers as it is like the double-plane "standard" swingers.

Moe's swing:
a) employed a palmed grip
b) kept the arms and hands very far away from the body
c) started with an address position well behind the ball
d) "swept" the ball more than hit down (with irons)
e) did not produce as much lag and didn't produce as much power
f) may or may not produce more accuracy

Originally Posted by hig4s
Also look at the pics.. http://www.moenorman.com/gallery.htm
at full back swing and at contact, he looks the same as Jones, Nickulas, Palmer.
Not really...

Originally Posted by hig4s
Really I think Count Yogi had one of the most different swings as he intentionally, along with the big hip move (like in natural golf and like Bobby Jones) would sweep the club flatly along the ground and never took divots.
Bobby Jones learned to play with hickory-shafted clubs. The swings of that day were - by necessity - quite different than they are today. Bobby Jones' swing is far from a "modern" golf swing. There is still a lot we can learn from it, but it's not "modern" and wouldn't work as well with today's equipment as it did then.

As for Count Yogi, you're on your own here. I've never seen his swing. I have seen Moe Norman's, and I am simply asking some questions here.
post #6 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

I call him VJ all the time just so I don't have to type Vijay. Just like I call Phil "Lefty"...

Anyway. The Moe swing looks quite flat to me. Very "Justin Leonardy".... If it works for you do it. Doesn't look like it would fit me.
post #7 of 122

Moe Norman

So what do you guys think about Moe Norman's single plane swing? I used to use some version of it when I didn't know any better but when I took lessons the instructor told me to bring the hands in closer at address. This video got me thinking if I should go back to it. When I was doing it, it just made logical sense.

post #8 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

Catchy video eh?

The fact is however, that the golf swing is really not THAT HARD. It is reading golf digest and trying to implement every little tip you hear, by yourself, that makes it impossible. Modern golf instruction is really confusing. Pick one method and stick with it. Find an instructor who will teach you that method and remember that it will become YOUR swing. The best ballstrikers all had one thing in common.. they look nothing alike except at impact. The classic swing is fine, the modern power golf swing is fine, the stack and tilt swing is fine, the one-plane swing is fine, and yes, the moe norman natural swing is fine.

From the looks of some of your swing videos though, you have great flexibility. This can translate to power if you use it right. I suggest finding an instructor you like and sticking with him/her. They can help you build YOUR swing.
post #9 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

That video also fails to mention that the the biggest reason for that high average score is short game skills. People don't practice the essentials of scoring.
post #10 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

I tried the swing for a bit a few years back. More accurate but I had inconsistent distances. Too high of a ball flight for my liking.
post #11 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

that is a freakin amazing video, wow! That is my favorite youtube video now.

That is a cool swing style, but I don't think it can work for everyone.
post #12 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

http://www.theefficientgolfer.com/ti...-analysis.html

This read was interesting as well. Not sure if its an advertising scam or not.
post #13 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

That video is a such a joke!!! lol


The music makes it sound like something monumental is happening. Fact is its not hard to understand a one plane swing. Who is Todd Graves? LOL. oh wait he is some guy that wants you to buy his bullcrap....


You have to adapt your own swing. Look at the PGa tour. There are sooo many different swings. Find something you can do consistently. Totally changing your swing after you have ingrained it in your brain is pointless to me, unless your Tiger Woods.
post #14 of 122
Thread Starter 

Re: Moe Norman

The Moe Norman swing has survived as "Natural Golf." It's usually an accurate swing, from what I understand, but it lacks power.
post #15 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

I normally hit my 7-iron 165 yards. With the Natural Golf swing I hit it about 145 yards. A very straight ball flight but very high (this is where I lost yardage). The problem was ballooning shots and this caused erratic yardages. But the accuracy was deadly, never more than 5 yards off-line.
If there was a way to get my normal yardages I would play with this swing, but there isn't (unless I wanted to lengthen my shaft quite a bit).
It's a very easy swing and puts no stress on your back. After about 10 swings it felt natural (no pun intended). Maybe getting the clubheads delofted would do the trick.

Anyhow, I'll stay conventional.
post #16 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

That youtube is SCAM! Todd Graves is telling lies to promote himself.
Jack Kuykendall started Natural Golf with a Patented swing that he developed. Someone told him it looked like Moe Norman's swing, and Jack said "What's a Moe Norman". They met and Jack was able to give the scientific reason Moe had a great swing. Moe had nothing to do with the developement of Natural Golf or the name Single Axis. That was all Jack. Jack and Moe became good friends. Todd came around later after his try of the PGA failed and he hooked up with Moe to learn his swing. The Natural Golf Company was legally stolen from Jack by clever investers, they changed the swing, went bankrupt and sold the Company to the present owners. Jack went on, developed Lever Power Golf Swing, and has a new Patent pending swing, that is by far the easiest swing to learn. He discovered it this year by accident. Jack is a scientist, and was one of Golf Magazines top 100 golf instuctors 5 years in a row, he is considered the number one scientific instructor. You can check him out at kuykendallgolf.com. I went from 23 to 9 index in 3 years. I don't have time to practice all the time. His swing works for all. No distance loss. Increased accuracy, and you never need lessons if you follow his advice.
post #17 of 122

Re: Moe Norman

On youtube there's quite a few teachers teaching the ''natural golf swing'' inspired by moe norman. if you don't know about him, he played on the canadian tour and played with quite an unorthodox swing. he lined up and addressed the ball with straight arms, and his takeaway was on the same plane as his downswing.

First of all, this swing generates very little power because it's harder to load the shaft properly to get good lag, and thus less distance.
secondly, you look like an idiot.
thirdly, moe norman wasn't even that great of a golfer. people say ''he was shy,'' ''he couldn't handle fame,'' i say b.s. he had his chances to play in majors, and a few other big events, and failed miserably.

He was a great ball striker, I'll give him that. but what good is striking the ball purely if you lose 40 yards off the tee?
post #18 of 122
Thread Starter 

Re: Moe Norman

Originally Posted by senorchipotle View Post
thirdly, moe norman wasn't even that great of a golfer. people say ''he was shy,'' ''he couldn't handle fame,'' i say b.s. he had his chances to play in majors, and a few other big events, and failed miserably.
Yeah... I don't know. Ben Hogan and a lot of those types of guys had awful good things to say about him. He had some mental health issues and was pretty goofed up in the head, so I think he could have competed quite well and won many tournaments on the PGA Tour. Ben Hogan said he hit the ball better than he did... and I heard he was going to win a tournament once but putted his ball into the bunker and splashed around for awhile so he could finish second to avoid the glare of winning... lots of mental issues.

Originally Posted by senorchipotle View Post
He was a great ball striker, I'll give him that. but what good is striking the ball purely if you lose 40 yards off the tee?
What good is hitting the ball 40 extra yards if you're gonna miss the green or hit it under a tree? The guy could play - that much I don't doubt - and his personality and/or mental health kept him from playing more than he did on the PGA Tour.
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