Rules question re. movable obstruction

**sacm3bill** · May 5, 2008

The other day I hit a tee shot that ended up right next to a yardage pole in the middle of the fairway. It interfered with my stance, and since I assumed it was planted firmly in the ground (immovable obstruction), I took a drop within a club length of nearest relief. Then, one of my playing partners commented "You know, you can remove that if you want..." I took a closer look and saw that the pole indeed was easily removed from its sleeve in the ground.

What's the ruling? As I interpret the rules, technically I was in violation of rule 24-1, which does not allow for even touching the ball if the ball does not lie in or on the movable obstruction. So by that rule, even if I had put the ball back in its original position before making a stroke (I actually played it from where I had dropped it), I would have had a penalty for illegally lifting the ball.

So unless someone knows of a decision (I couldn't find one) that relates to this particular case of the "movability" of an object being uncertain/non-obvious, I'm probably guilty of something...

- Bill

**Mr Eagle** · May 5, 2008

The marker post is an immovable obstruction .It is an integral part of the course and you acted within the rules.
It should be in the local rules

***iacas*** · May 5, 2008

The marker post is an immovable obstruction .It is an integral part of the course and you acted within the rules.

I believe that's wrong. If it's movable (he says it was "easily removed from its sleeve"), then it's not an "immovable obstruction."

If your stance would have been affected by the hole in the ground (where the post goes), then that portion would have been an immovable obstruction. But the pole itself, if removable, is not.

**Elsfan** · May 5, 2008

Thats funny. A couple of years ago I was in the same situation. I thought I could get the ball without hitting the marker posts and shattered it everywhere. Now I remove it if it comes in my way. They are made removable for a reason.

**AmenCorner** · May 5, 2008

I'd say that is a penalty for picking it up, and another one for placing instead of dropping. If it was immovable, you would get relief for swing and stance but not line of flight. That's how it is at my course.

**iWALK18** · May 5, 2008

So if the pole is directly in front of your ball, and your ball would possibly hit it if you went at the green, you may not remove it?

I'm pulling it anyways, its not worth breaking the thing...

I saw someone hit the 150 pole from 100 yards away with a 3 wood once... pretty awesome explosion of PVC pipe...

***iacas*** · May 5, 2008

I'd say that is a penalty for picking it up, and another one for placing instead of dropping. If it was immovable, you would get relief for swing and stance but not line of flight. That's how it is at my course.

No, placing the ball is still part of the act of moving the ball (which you shouldn't do), and you can't be penalized for moving the ball twice. Put another way, placing the ball is still part of the act of "moving the ball," so there's no added penalty.

He a) moved the ball and b) did not replace the ball in the proper location prior to playing his next stroke. Those, I believe, are the penalties that apply.

So if the pole is directly in front of your ball, and your ball would possibly hit it if you went at the green, you may not remove it?

Right. But that's only if it's immovable. Every time I've seen such a thing in the fairway you can just pull it out very easily. Do that, play your shot, and put it back in when you're done.

My course has 150-yard stakes just into the rough on one side of each fairway. They're an immovable obstruction. Stance or swing only:

Source: Rule 24-a Interference by an immovable obstruction occurs when a ball lies in or on the obstruction, or when the obstruction interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing. If the player's ball lies on the putting green, interference also occurs if an immovable obstruction on the putting green intervenes on his line of putt. Otherwise, intervention on the line of play is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.

**Mr Eagle** · May 5, 2008

Made a mistake on my wording in the post above.,In saying that the marker post was an integral part of the course.Of corse this is not the case.
That besides unless it is stated in the local rules that the post is a movable obstruction it should be regarded as an immovable obstruction and relief taken without penalty.

The decission on wether it is movable or not is not up to the player,you can't just go round courses yanking at marker posts and 150 markers to see if they move.

Iacas are the posts on your course mentioned in the local rules? They should be

***iacas*** · May 5, 2008

That besides unless it is stated in the local rules that the post is a movable obstruction it should be regarded as an immovable obstruction and relief taken without penalty.

Incorrect... as I'll get to...

The decission on wether it is movable or not is not up to the player,you can't just go round courses yanking at marker posts and 150 markers to see if they move.

Yes, it kind of is up to the player. Look at the last two sentences here (the rest is useful for later in my response):

Source: definition of "obstruction" An "obstruction" is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice, except:

Objects defining out of bounds, such as walls, fences, stakes and railings;

Any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of bounds; and

Any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course.

An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage. Otherwise, it is an immovable obstruction.

Iacas are the posts on your course mentioned in the local rules? They should be

They are mentioned as immovable obstructions , but that's as useless as noting that we get relief from cart paths. The posts are clearly something artificial, meeting the first criteria cited above, and they're not a) defining OB, b) OB themselves, or c) declared to be "an integral part of the course." Thus, they're clearly an immovable obstruction.

**SubPar** · May 5, 2008

Aren't the rules of golf easy to understand? The distinction between what you get line of sight relief from and what you just get interference relief from still eludes me.

Yardage markers beside the fairway are usually removable. If they are fixed, I would assume, based on the information iacas posted, you would be able to take relief.

I used to play on a small lighted course sometimes and the light poles are "part of the course", just as tree would be part of the course. There are a number of protective fences from which you do get free relief. Perimeter fences are just like OB stakes... no relief from those.

A tractor parked on the course is an immovable obstruction (unless you have the keys), but a shed on the course that houses a tractor, may be considered part of the course. I believe I read somewhere that permanent structures are not obstructions unless declared as such on the scorecard. This would apply to the snack bar, restrooms, etc.

One thing that is good to bear in mind is you can get relief from cut limbs, fallen branches and such. I saw Els get this kind of relief a year or two ago. Also, if there is a poorly replaced hole cut on the green, you can take relief from that as well. Justin Leonard got that ruling a few years back.

Taking relief properly is not as easy as one would assume. I can't tell you how many times I see people taking relief from where the ball lies rather than "from the nearest point of relief not closer to the hole".

And always remember, a live snake is an outside agent and a dead snake is a loose impediment.

Subpar.

**sacm3bill** · May 6, 2008

The distinction between what you get line of sight relief from and what you just get interference relief from still eludes me.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall seeing anything about line of sight relief in any of the rules of golf. It's stance and swing only, isn't it?

Thanks for all the responses. As I originally stated, and as the consensus seems to be, I understand that according to the rules as written I'd (at the very least) get a penalty for moving the ball because there was no immovable obstruction that would allow that. But I also know that decisions are made and published when clarifications to the rules are necessary. What I am still wondering is whether the fact that I did not *know* it was movable would make any difference to a rules official. There was no intent on my part to pull a fast one, and I didn't get a better lie - I simply believed that the post was immovable. I know that ignorance of the rules is no excuse, but this is a case of ignorance of the course. Put a more generic way, how much responsibility does the individual golfer have to be aware of every feature on the course if they're not covered in the local rules? Pretend you're a USGA rules official and were officiating at a tournament where this happened - how would you rule? Just curious. Thanks, - Bill

***iacas*** · May 6, 2008

Yardage markers beside the fairway are usually removable.

I've never seen any that are removable. The ones in the middle of the fairway, yeah. Off the fairway, again, I've never seen one...

A tractor parked on the course is an immovable obstruction (unless you have the keys), but a shed on the course that houses a tractor, may be considered part of the course. I believe I read somewhere that permanent structures are not obstructions unless declared as such on the scorecard. This would apply to the snack bar, restrooms, etc.

The definition of "obstruction" says nothing about those. But yes, according to Appendix IA, section 5, part a, you can declare something as part of the course. If it's not declared as such, of course, it's still an obstruction if it meets the criteria I posted above.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall seeing anything about line of sight relief in any of the rules of golf. It's stance and swing only, isn't it?

No. Line of sight relief can be granted for things that aren't part of the golf course, like scoreboards, etc. that block the line of sight to the area where the player intends to hit his next shot (usually the flag).

It generally applies to temporary structures, again like scoreboards, and not permanent things like halfway houses or permanent scoreboards (which, ideally, are far enough away that they wouldn't impede line-of-sight).

But I also know that decisions are made and published when clarifications to the rules are necessary. What I am still wondering is whether the fact that I did not *know* it was movable would make any difference to a rules official.

a) Did you do your due diligence to check? Not knowing is never an excuse.

b) Did the scorecard or any other local rules tell you? c) Even if you get by on the first two, you placed the ball, and didn't drop it, so you didn't follow proper form there. You'd still be penalized. I don't doubt that there was no ill intent on your part, but rules are rules, and I'm not saying that to condemn you or anything, just to serve notice to you and others that "intent" rarely matters (except "intent" to make a stroke and a few other rules).

Put a more generic way, how much responsibility does the individual golfer have to be aware of every feature on the course if they're not covered in the local rules?

I think it would have been "reasonable" for you to see if the item was movable. The Rules of Golf say that where no specific rule exists, basically that common sense take over. I think it's common sense that, if you had followed the rules, you'd have at least given the post a little wiggle to see if it was movable or not, particularly since the procedures for a movable vs. immovable obstruction vary so much.

Pretend you're a USGA rules official and were officiating at a tournament where this happened - how would you rule? Just curious.

I would rule you be penalized. You should have determined whether it was movable or not before acting as if it was immovable.

**sacm3bill** · May 6, 2008

I'm with you Erik - although I will point out that, as stated in my first post, I dropped - did not place.

No local rules covered it, but I did not do due diligence - looked at it and it appeared immovable, but did not jiggle it.

**SubPar** · May 6, 2008

I've never seen any that are removable. The ones in the middle of the fairway, yeah. Off the fairway, again, I've never seen one...

Most courses around SoCal have permanent yardage markers in the center of the fairway, ususally a small concrete thing. These are flat and can't be seen till you walk up on them.

On either side of the fairway, just in the rough, there are wooden or plastic markers that stand about three feet high. Those can be pulled out of their base if they are in the way. A few courses have the stake type markers in the middle of the fairway which could knock down or deflect the ball. I guess it's cheaper that way, but creates an obstruction to play. SubPar

snowyowl · May 6, 2008

sacm3bill,

Listen to iacas...he's right.

The minute you lifted your ball to drop away from the obstruction that turned out to be movable, you breached Rule 18-2a.

You subsequently - upon discovering it was movable - should have replaced your ball where it originally lay.

If you did that, you would have been penalised 1 stroke. By not replacing the ball and playing it from where you dropped it (I can't scroll down to confirm that's what you said you did though) you are penalised 2 strokes.

The relevant decision to your situation is 18-2a/4

You couldn't avoid the penalty for the original breach....

Snowyowl

**blue3715** · May 6, 2008

I can understand hazard stakes, ropes, rope poles, etc, which are moveable objects, and even OB stakes (which may be TIO as they define the course boundary).

I don't think a person is required to know that the 150 yard pole sits in a sleeve. I also believe poles like that are not intended to be removed since the player is likely not going to be able to put it back.

If a player makes a resonable assumption that a TIO is indeed not moveable than I think he has satisfied the rules. In a matchplay he should notify his playing partner of his intention to take relief.

Do the rules require a person to test for moveability? Maybe it does.. otherwise noone would test red/yellow stakes, and would just take relief if its in the way of stance or swing.

***iacas*** · May 7, 2008

I can understand hazard stakes, ropes, rope poles, etc, which are moveable objects, and even OB stakes (which may be TIO as they define the course boundary).

They're not TIO. Look at the definition above. TIO is temporary.

I don't think a person is required to know that the 150 yard pole sits in a sleeve. I also believe poles like that are not intended to be removed since the player is likely not going to be able to put it back.

Yes, they are... and yes, the player is expected to check to see if they're movable. They weigh like five pounds. They're usually just an empty, hollow piece of PVC pipe or something. How can a player decide if something is "immovable" if he doesn't attempt to move it? It's his responsibility to check. The LAST thing a player should do is assume, particularly when it involves putting your hand on your golf ball.

Again, these are the things in the middle of the fairway. Most of the 150-yard stakes I've ever seen are immovable obstructions. They're often cited as such on the scorecards. Which are you talking about?

If a player makes a resonable assumption that a TIO is indeed not moveable than I think he has satisfied the rules.

It's not a "T". T is for "temporary."

Furthermore, again, I don't think assuming satisfies the rules. It's interfering with his stance or swing, so he's "right there." He could easily check.

Do the rules require a person to test for moveability? Maybe it does.. otherwise noone would test red/yellow stakes, and would just take relief if its in the way of stance or swing.

If your ball lies in the hazard, you're not entitled to relief from an immovable obstruction.

Stakes are movable for a reason, and if you know the rules, you know that you can move such stakes prior to playing your shot. To answer your question, yes, the player must determine whether something is movable. Putting your hands on your golf ball is always the last resort. You first test for "movable" so you know what KIND of obstruction it is, then you proceed. There's no such thing as an "unknown" obstruction. And FWIW, I called the local rules official I know. He concurs. If it's at all reasonable to determine whether something is movable, without delaying play, all attempts to determine should be made. If it's gonna take 10 minutes for someone to get the keys to move a tractor, that's a delay, so you proceed as an immovable object.

**martin00015** · May 7, 2008

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall seeing anything about line of sight relief in any of the rules of golf.

Pedantically, only when your ball is on the putting green.

What I am still wondering is whether the fact that I did not *know* it was movable would make any difference to a rules official.

None. That's how you learn!

Pretend you're a USGA rules official and were officiating at a tournament where this happened - how would you rule? Just curious. Thanks,

2-stroke penalty (or loss of hole), breach of 24-2. Iacas and snowyowl gave you the right information.

As one of them said, if you find out about the movable obstruction before you play the ball, you can replace it to reduce the penalty to one stroke (18-2)

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Rules question re. movable obstruction

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