Some questions about the fundamentals of the swing

I've got some questions about the fundamentals of the golf swing. Most of my problem is with the driver and longer clubs but I'm known to duff shots with the scoring irons too.

At what point on the takeaway should the wrists start to cock, I always used cocked them right away(and hence starting the takeaway of the club) before moving my arms. I was told by a friend that this is wrong but I just saw a thing on Golf Digest where Ledbetter says I was doing it right.

When should the hips and lower body start turning towards the target? Just before the start of the downswing or at the same time the downswing starts? I suppose this depends on the person.

I'm going to get a video up soon, I'm just working on a few flaws that I know my swing has at the moment. Mainly staying on plane(WAY too steep right now), tempo, spine angle and head movement.

What are some tips I can use to make sure the club is on plane during my swing? Where should the clubhead point at the top of the backswing?

Right now my 7 iron goes about 140 yards and it's my go to club. Each club shorter goes about 10 yards less. On a great shot I get 200 yards out of my driver, most of the time way less than that though. I seem to hit all my longer clubs the same distance many times. I think much of this is overswinging, lack of wrist lag and not using enough lower body rotation to create power.

Any opinions appreciated. I love this forum I've learned so much already!

Latest theory :

BackSwing
swing the club low to the ground for about six inches, just long enough to start creating width, and thus stored power. controls the swinging action by nudging weight away from the target and gently pulling the club away with hands (simply because it is the most natural thing to do). The club moves directly along the target line early in the takeaway, then slightly to the inside once shoulders begin turning slightly clockwise
As soon as the club’s shaft parallels the target line at waist level and weight shifts to right foot, right leg, and braced right knee, allow right wrist to hinge slightly, with the club moving up quite quickly. This upward movement of the club is helped by modernized shoulder action. Rather than turn the shoulders on a flat plane, kind of rocks them, albeit being cautious not to dip them.(Make sure you advise your students to be careful of wrongly dipping the shoulders, since this fault will cause a reverse pivot. Let the player simply feel the correct movement – left shoulder points down slightly, right shoulder points up slightly – in a see-saw fashion.)
Continue swinging back, with the momentum of the turn and the slight tug(povlek, trzaj, poteg) on the club with right hand carrying the club to the top, where it now finishes square to the target line. early set and turn action allow him to make a free and fluid backswing action that is more natural-feeling, and therefore easier to repeat.
Footwork has changed, too. Rather than keep left heel planted on the ground, allows it to lift slightly, and this move promotes a bigger, more relaxed turn, though the turning action of the shoulders, again, is more upright than flat. this modernized turning action allows the club to stay closer to the target line on the backswing, so that he can rely less on timing for delivering it squarely to the ball on the downswing.
DownSwing
Because now sets the club sooner on the backswing and arrives in the ideal parallel position at the top, all he does to trigger the downswing is replant his left heel and nudge or bump his body weight toward the target. These moves, in turn, cause the right elbow to drop down into his side and the club to fall into the perfect hitting slot. (Because now swings the club back on an upright plane, the club does not have to travel as far on the downswing when returning to impact. )
Simply trigger the downswing by practically simultaneously nudging their lower body toward the target and replanting the left heel on the teeing ground’s grass surface. In doing thus, the right elbow and club will drop down into the perfect hitting position. from there, all you should do is rotate his or her left hip counterclockwise. A split second later, the student should release the right foot and hip and begin straightening the right arm.Finally, once left hip clears and the club nears impact, he or she should straighten the right wrist.


regrads,

If I were you I would study slow motion video of a tour pro like Fred Funk.

Stop the video and study body position at the top, club parallel (halfway down) and at impact. It will reveal most of what you need to know about the proper execution of the golf swing including tempo, balance and rhythm.

I love it when someone ask about the basic fundamentals instead of quick fixes that break down in the long run

What I'll give you are not opinions but true fundamentals of the golf swing. I'll use Ben Hogan as an example, because who has a more fundamentally correct swing than him? Hogan started his back swing by moving the shoulders, arms, and hands back together, while delaying the hips. As his hands moved, right from the start, he would coil and cock them. So, using this information, we can assume that the correct way to take back the back swing is to cock them from the very start. I say cock and not coil, because the only reason Hogan coiled them was so his wrist was in a fully cupped position at the top of the back swing, which caused his natural fade ball flight. To check if you're cocking correctly, when your arm is parallel with the ground, your wrist should be fully cocked. The wrist cock is a smooth transition from the start to the finish, no last minute jerking action. The hips initiate the down swing in either way you mentioned. Hogan said in his book that some pros would start the hips back a fraction of a second before the hands reached the top of the back swing, and it's perfectly fine. Personally I wait till the top but may try to train this new movement. The wrist cock thing may seem complicated, so I'll use Hogan's idea of the swing plane to make it simple (if you don't have Hogan's 5 Lessons, get it because he explains it a lot better): Imagine, at address, that a plane of glass sticks out from the ball and lies over your shoulders (there is a hole for your head to stick out of). The glass extends infinitely in all directions. Now, simply use that glass to guide your back swing. Make sure of these three things: -You start your back swing by moving the hands, arms, and shoulders together at the same time, while delaying the hips. -Your shoulders rotate at the same inclination to the ball throughout the back swing (they are constantly rubbing against the glass). -Once your arms approach hip level, they should be moving parallel with the glass all the way to the top. Use your left arm as your guide, and think of the club as an extension of the left arm. -At the top of the back swing, your left arm and club should be rubbing against the glass. When you think about the glass, the wrist cock happens naturally, you take a full swing naturally, and you stay on plane naturally, time after time.

What do you mean by coil?

I assume cocking the wrists is what everyone refers to as the "lag".

I have been starting my hip movement slightly before the start of my downswing which seems to help as I think my hips are kinda "slow".

Where can I get Hogan's Five Lessons, I'm not sure if I'm visualing the swing plane tip correctly, although I think I am.

The things you're referring to are not fundamentals, you're talking "mechanics." IMO, the backswing details are irrelevant. It only matters where you are at the top, the backswing is really just a way to build "feel." Think about it, the club - mathematically speaking, since at one point it's going one direction, then goes the other direction - is at 0mph at some point. The backswing doesn't build any momentum or acceleration. What it builds is tension/coil.

It doesn't matter when the wrists cock on the backswing, only that they do. It's all about natural movements. Don't overwork your hands and don't overswing going back, and the club will point the right way. On your downswing, it doesn't matter exactly when your hips open, just remember to generally start your downswing from the ground up, don't let any one part get ahead or behind another, and leave your hands to be the last thing to release. Lastly, remember, the club is doing the hitting, the ball is doing the compressing, let your equipment do its thing. Your only job is to return the clubface to the ball. Any speed will come naturally. Speed you have to "try" for isn't speed you want.

I wouldn't term your questions as being questions about the fundimentals. (The fundimentals to me are basics of the address position: grip, alignment, posture, ball position, balance, etc). They seem more swing oriented questions.

Wrists: As far when your wrists hinge or cock is a matter of personal preference. When you look at pros who make successful swings you'll see some that set them early, and some that set them later. Players who have worked with Leadbetter tend to have an early set (ex: Faldo, Els, Howell, and Immelman), and Players who have worked with Butch Harmon (ex: Norman, Love, Couples, and Woods) tend to set the wrists later. Like you can see in the images below there is variation, and when they set on the backswing seems to have no relation to the position on the downswing. Wrist set face view: Wrists on downswing (scroll to bottom of picture to see down the line view): Charles Howell III wrist hinge downline view: Hips and lower body: The from target view may teach you a few things about when the hips and lower body unwind (and the speed they do so in relation to the rest of the body). Here is Trevor Immelman from a target camera view: Setup Top of swing Left arm parallel down Impact The things I see with Immelman's swing that may help you with understanding the swing are: His hips are in pretty much the same position at setup as they are when his left arm is parallel to the ground on the downswing. (Save the two images to your system and flip rapidly back and forth between them). From the left arm parallel back to the top of swing position the hips have moved very little (if at all) showing that they are not jumping ahead, and thus not starting back down before the backswing has completed. (In answer to your second question). (Again you can save the images and flip back and forth to see this). From the top of swing to left arm parallel down his hips and turned at the same time that his arms have dropped, but the back and shoulders have moved very little during that time. This in turn relates to your third question, as by keeping his back to the target and allowing his arms to drop the club is able to shallow out. If the back and chest turned to the target along with the hips in the downswing the arms would have been encouraged to pull down on a steep angle. Finally where the clubhead points at the top of the swing isn't very significant. You can find many players (including pros) who have it in different positions. (Some with the club facing the sky and the shaft pointing right of the target, some with the toe pointing at the ground and the club pointing left of the target, and some with the clubhead halfway in between point at the ground and and the sky, and the shaft at or parallel to the target). Yet each of them from those postions can hit the ball pretty straight do to their grip and body movements, so its difficult to advise you one way or another (especially without seeing your swing). Hopefully that answers your questions.

True, the purpose of a well-executed backswing is to get you to the correct position at the top, and hence help you get your downswing started right - but it

does matter how you got into that position. For example, if you have a tendency to drop back inside early in the back swing (handle pointed to the right of target at the half-back position, right hander), you may or may not manage to compensate for this and get yourself on plane at the top. More than likely you won't manage it, and certainly you will have problems with consistency unless you're a very advanced player. Whereas if you stay on plane (or close to it) all the way back, you're much more likely to be on plane on the way down and you'll have more confidence in your game. So, if you're arguing that it really doesn't matter how you get to the fully coiled position, I would disagree. Other than that, I really liked you post ...

I should have elaborated, but I agree with both of you. I don't think any of us could successfully just start at the top. The backswing is vital in building, rhythm, and getting our sense of balance and athleticism, and you clearly can't do whatever the hell you want just so long as you just happen to hit that one *snapshot* of the right top position for one millisecond. I was just hoping to emphasize to the OP that I thought he was paralyzing through analyzing!

I will get a video of my swing ASAP.

I also started another thread because I want to buy some new clubs. Any information you have for that would be appreciated as well.
http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthr...020#post152020

There are eight key fundamentals in the golf swing:

1) grip
2) stance and posture
3) the waggle
4) starting the back swing with the hands, arms, and shoulders, then letting the shoulders turn the hips
5) the plane
6) Initiating the downswing with the turning of the hips to the left
7) hitting through the swing in one cohesive movement: essentially the opposite of the back swing--hips, shoulders, arms, then hands in that order
8) supination of the left wrist just before impact

You can get Ben Hogan's 5 Lessons at any bookstore. I went to Boarders book store the other day and found many copies of his book, including some nice hard backs.

As a side note... something inspiring to get you to buy the book: Hogan promises that if you intelligently apply the fundamentals in the book, practicing 30 minutes every day, you will be able to break 80 in 6 months.

It's not loading for some reason when I go to the screen where I can choose exactly what part of the clip I want included. Just stays at loading 0%. ..........and now on top of it it won't accept my title and description for the shot. Sigh.

Sonicblue,

I'm not surprised to read that, I think I was a bit guilty of over-analyzing your post, because I didn't really think you could have meant it literally.
Not with your handicap ...

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New subject: something I was really doing wrong at the range yesterday, namely, overgripping at the top with the long irons and woods, in an effort to get more umph into the stroke. I don't seem to do this with the mid-to short irons. It's a big mistake, as it leads to a host of problems, including casting and fouled-up timing. Does anyone else find that with time on the range they start to grip harder and harder at the top (esp with longer clubs), and then things start going south?

No matter how many balls you've hit, keep it soft, keep it smooth and keep the lag going ....

I agree with this 100% - HOW you arrive at the top of your backswing is very very important as it affects timing and in my opinion more importantly it affects balance. I have seen video of players who have some horrendous moves in the early part of their backswing but when you freeze the video right at the top they appear to have achieved a more than acceptable position - however continue to play the video and a split second later they are just about falling over backwards or flat on their faces.

All the ball knows is impact. To me, that's the only part of the swing where the pros look alike. I find it very easy to imitate and engrain this feel, as opposed to the other 1,000 parts of the swing.

I usually have a more consistent shot after I focus my practice swing on getting to the correct impact position.

-wrist cock is at the top of the backswing.
-stick with 80% swing power, sacrifice some power for accuracy... (lower your power but don't lay off the follow through)

I must agree with those suggesting that balance and position is what is achieved at the top of the back swing.

The human body cannot "coil" or "store energy". We are not springs. Our muscles, bones and joints do not contain any structures to save a position -- that is why just holding a heavy object away from you body is tiring.

Thus how you get to the top of your backswing is somewhat irrelevant. There are many ways to skin that cat. The important issue is reproducibly getting to the top of your swing, balanced and ready to hit. I do believe the best plan for a backswing is something that is reproducable and consistent. So if cocking and turning your wrists as you first move is what you are comfortable with, good for you.

I personally am not sure what is that correct top of swing position. I have a very hard time determining how and where my body is positioned. IMHO the best position should be one that you could hold for a few seconds. I like the idea of a slow set of turns, so I can "feel" my position during the backswing.

For me, all the turning, bending, etc is to allow/ensure maximum time for coordinated, un-obstructed/smooth, controlled acceration to the ball. Turning your hips, rotating your arms and uncocking your wrists are producing the enery that drives the ball. Ideally all three movements are at their maximum speeds at the moment of contact. Uncocking you wrists early (or late) means the club head is only moving as fast as your hips and arms are turning. Etc.

In addition, one has to control the line of the club and face angle at the point of contact.

Golf instruction is trying to explain that starting position and the appropriate motions to get to impact. Given all the jargon, bad rationales, speed of a swing -- it is really hard to understand and equally hard to replicate.