A few rules ticklers

**jfrain2004** · June 23, 2008

Had a match play at the wknd and just got over the line in front but it should have been a lot easier as there were a few things I wasn't 100% sure of that my opponent did so I kept my mouth shut.
No1 On a par 4, Opponent hit a tee shot into rough, and hit a provisional down the middle. He proceeded to then hit his provisional ball onto the green before we started looking for his first ball. We found it after 2 mins so he played it and picked up his provisional off the green. Now I thought from once you hit your provisional that your first ball is then out of play.?

2nd He hit 3 consectutive tee shots into trees in almost exact same place. We went up and he found his "first" ball and played it. Now I'm thinking, how does he know that's his first ball? Should he not have played a different type ball for his 2nd or 3rd tee shot and told me first what each ball is to avoid any confusion?

On another occasion, from the trees, his ball happened to come to rest on a nice mound of grass, pretty sure if I had bothered to go over with him for that one first the ball might not have been so favourly positioned.
lol, I can't understand why a hacker would want to be a single digit handicapper?
He was an 8 handicapper but had no swing worth talking about so I could defo see how he got such a low handicap.

**907golfer12** · June 23, 2008

1. You are correct. Rule 27-2b

Quote:
"The may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer to the hole that that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stoke and distance."

Since he hit his provisional then he was lying 4 on the green, and cannot play the original ball, even if he finds it and it is playable.

2. Just as he cannot prove that was his 1st ball, you cannot prove that it is not, so we have to assume he is telling the truth. If he had good etiquette he should have used a different type of ball or a different numbered ball, and shown you, but it is not required under the rules. You could have asked him to show you what was the difference from ball 1, 2 and 3 before he hit each from the tee. But since you did not then he may have gotten away with saving 4 strokes. I guess it's just a lesson for you.

**jfrain2004** · June 23, 2008

So in case No1 it's like a free shot. I'm sure if a guy hits his provisional ball before starting to look for his first ball and proceeds to hole out then I can't see him "finding" his first ball? Even if he did he could jsut say, "nah, that's not my ball"? Seems strange after you see all the other silly rules

***iacas*** · June 23, 2008

1. You are correct. Rule 27-2b

The OP didn't say whether the stroke on the provisional (stroke 4, or the second at the provisional) occurred "behind" the position where the original ball likely lay, so you can't really say.

Also, why did he hit a provisional? Because it might be a lost ball? If so, and you (or anyone else) locates the ball, he must play that ball. He can't suddenly change his mind and declare it unplayable - he'd have to go back and re-tee (or take two clublengths, etc. for an unplayable lie). If you find someone's lost ball, it's not lost anymore. Though a player is the sole decider of when his ball is unplayable, he cannot declare his ball LOST. (Yes, he could lie and say "that's not my ball," I guess, but you can always call him on that if you know what ball is his.)

**JaY_B** · June 23, 2008

Heres an interesting one:

You can hit 10 balls OB, but still only be playing 3 off the tee, bet half of you didn't know that (The ball has to go OB for the rule to be in effect.)

**JaY_B** · June 23, 2008

Had a match play at the wknd and just got over the line in front but it should have been a lot easier as there were a few things I wasn't 100% sure of that my opponent did so I kept my mouth shut.

Back on topic - The player should of told you the make, number and marking of the 2 provisional balls he hit, otherwise he has no way of proving which ball is which (which by my understanding means loss of hole)

I know a couple of cheaters and once you know some ones a cheater it becomes very easy to overlook 'coincidental good luck'. I agree, why would sane people want a fake handicap by means of cheating. Cheaters in my opinion are pure scum, and I'm sorry that you happened to have to suspect some one, its not a nice feeling.

**sonicblue** · June 23, 2008

Heres an interesting one:

um, wut???

**JaY_B** · June 23, 2008

um, wut???

If your provisional ball goes OB it is not in play, there for cannot count as a shot off the tee, you have only played 3 off the tee once your ball is in play.

**Fourputt** · June 23, 2008

Had a match play at the wknd and just got over the line in front but it should have been a lot easier as there were a few things I wasn't 100% sure of that my opponent did so I kept my mouth shut.

1. You may play as many strokes with a provisional ball as necessary to get to or beyond the point where the original ball is thought to lie. If you play a stroke at the provisional ball from anywhere at or beyond that point, then the provisional ball becomes the ball in play and the original ball is abandoned. So we need more information to answer your first question.

2. He must state that he is hitting a provisional ball, and he must indicate a way of differentiating it from the original ball. I always use a ball of the same type and ID marking, but with a different number, and I make sure that I announce which is which. You may have had cause for a grievance there... again I really don't know. I'd have made the point before he hit the 2nd ball. 3. Who knows? I've seen many strange things on a golf course, and sometimes you get a perfect lie in the middle of a swamp. It just happens. Now to the most pertinent issue. If you thought that there was something wrong and you wanted to make a claim, you MUST do so by notifying your opponent before either of you has played from the next teeing ground, or in the case of it being the final hole, before all have left the putting green. If you do not make the claim in that time frame, then the committee cannot consider such a claim. The only time that a later claim can be made is if the player was not in possession of the facts of the situation in time to make a timely claim. It is spelled out in Rule 2-5:

2-5. Doubt as to Procedure; Disputes and Claims In match play, if a doubt or dispute arises between the players, a player may make a claim. If no duly authorized representative of the Committee is available within a reasonable time, the players must continue the match without delay. The Committee may consider a claim only if the player making the claim notifies his opponent (i) that he is making a claim, (ii) of the facts of the situation and (iii) that he wants a ruling. The claim must be made before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players in the match leave the putting green. A later claim may not be considered by the Committee, unless it is based on facts previously unknown to the player making the claim and he had been given wrong information (Rules 6-2a and 9) by an opponent. Once the result of the match has been officially announced, a later claim may not be considered by the Committee, unless it is satisfied that the opponent knew he was giving wrong information.

**Fourputt** · June 23, 2008

If your provisional ball goes OB it is not in play, there for cannot count as a shot off the tee, you have only played 3 off the tee once your ball is in play.

That's absurd. You're going to have to show me this rule in black and white.

If you don't find the original ball in bounds, then the first provisional is the ball in play (lying 3). If it is also out of bounds, then the next ball is in play (lying 5), and so forth. You don't get any freebies. Every stroke, and every penalty counts until you finally put a ball in play within the course boundary. If you do have this sort of difficulty, you had better be able to differentiate the various balls and the order in which they were hit Even when you find one in bounds, if you can't positively identify which one it is, it will be deemed lost and you will still have to return to the tee for yet another try.

**JaY_B** · June 23, 2008

That's absurd. You're going to have to show me this rule in black and white.

Thats exactly what I thought, apparantly thats not the case though, and this is coming from someone who is quite clued up about the rules of golf, I will try and find some concrete evidence on my part. As I say I am 100% sure this is correct but I will try and prove it, just so I don't get abuse.

**MrSandman** · June 23, 2008

#1. As already meantioned, he was likely fine doing that.

What happens if you hit the ball 280 yards, but it might be in trouble. So you hit a provisional and duff it only 100 yards. Do you have to walk up 280 yards, spend 5 minutes looking for your ball, then go back 180 yards to the old ball to play the provisional? That would not be good for pace of play, and would not make much sense to require. You can play your provisional up to the point where your original should be, and then you start looking for it.

#2, he should have told you what the distinguishing charactestic was on the provisional. He should have added another mark or used a different number. He should have identified his provesional when he made the announcement that he was hitting a provisional. (And had he not announced he was hitting a provisional, than that actually becomes the ball for the hole, even if the first is found) That was a BS move on his part, but you are also at fault for not inquiring as to the ball he was hitting.

**JaY_B** · June 23, 2008

Thats exactly what I thought, apparantly thats not the case though, and this is coming from someone who is quite clued up about the rules of golf, I will try and find some concrete evidence on my part.

"If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original provisional ball" In a way it makes sense, you are only hitting a provisional in case your first ball can't be found, and because the ball is out of bounds it could never be declared in play. In either the rules book or the decisions on the rules of golf book I can't find significant proof to prove what should happen either way.

**MrSandman** · June 23, 2008

So in case No1 it's like a free shot. I'm sure if a guy hits his provisional ball before starting to look for his first ball and proceeds to hole out then I can't see him "finding" his first ball? Even if he did he could jsut say, "nah, that's not my ball"? Seems strange after you see all the other silly rules

You can go look for a ball, and if you find it, he has to play it. He is not under a duty to look for the ball if he does not want to, but if the ball is somehow found, he must play it (or take an unplayable).

Something like this happened with Vijay Singh a few years back (maybe the PGA at Whistling Straight)? He hit a bad first shot, hit the provisional. Played the provisional, knocked it tight, so did not bother looking for the original ball as he just went up and knocked in his birdie. However, I cannot think of too many situations where it is preferred to play the provisional and not find your original tee shot.

**JaY_B** · June 23, 2008

I have also learnt from trying to find an answer to this ruling:

If a player hits a provisional, and also thinks that ball could be lost and hits another ball (without declaring it a provisional) the third ball is the ball that is in play (unless the first ball is found), the player would then lie 5.

(This still doesn't answer what happens when you call a second provisional ball)

**MrSandman** · June 23, 2008

Heres an interesting one:

Absolutely FALSE

Angel Cabrera recorded a 10 on a par 3 last year at Southern Hills in the PGA Championship after hitting 3 balls Out of Bounds. It was the 6th hole, second round, 200 yd par 3: http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/2...rds/20848.html Here is a description of the hole (Cabrera went OB far left): http://www.skysports.com/story/0,195...645293,00.html If you hit 10 balls OB, you are lying 20 on the tee. You're next shot would be your 21st 1. Struck Ball OB (1st) 2. Penalty Stroke 3. Struck Ball OB 4. Penalty Stroke 5. Struck Ball OB 6. Penalty Stroke 7. Struck Ball OB 8. Penalty Stroke 9. Struck Ball OB 10. Penalty Stroke 11. Struck Ball OB 12. Penalty Stroke 13. Struck Ball OB 14. Penalty Stroke 15. Struck Ball OB 16. Penalty Stroke 17. Struck Ball OB 18. Penalty Stroke 19. Struck Ball OB 20. Penalty Stroke 21. Tee Shot

**MrSandman** · June 23, 2008

I have also learnt from trying to find an answer to this ruling:

There is a story in Tales From Q School about this.

Guy hits it, isn't sure if he can find it, and says, "I'll reload..." His playing partner was looking for a dirty way to DQ some competition, so he waits until after the original player finds his first, plays it, and records the par or bogey. He then goes up to the scorer's tent and rats the guy out for not calling it a provisional (or referencing the specific rule). The rules guys are shocked that somebody would pull a move this dirty, but they have no choice but to disqualify the player for posting a score lower than what he actually shot.

**JaY_B** · June 23, 2008

To be honest, it's likely your right, the ruling never sounded right too me, however the ruling itself was from a reliable source, and I find it hard to believe the individual would be wrong.

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