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My setup (knee and forearm questions)


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Does anyone see any issues with my current setup (long irons, that's me on the left) Three things bother me since they don't match images of the pros: 1. Both of my knees are tweaked in towards the center 2. It's hard to see but my forearms don't look rotated correctly (i.e. elbow sockets pointing at camera, w elbows pointing at hips). and 3. I may have too much back tilt toward my right foot.

Agree? Any ideas of how these differences will affect a full swing?

R7 TP 8.5* Fuji Speeder x-stiff (heavy,low,fade set)
975F 3W 13.5*
FX Tour Grind Nickel 3-PW +1/2", Rifle 6.5
Vokey SW 52*
CG10 LW 60* 3 dot (14* bounce) Tracy putter 35" (hit R but putt L)+ 1 club TBD...Past home courses: Unicorn GC (Stoneham, MA), Forest Creek GC (Round Rock, TX)Ball: Use...

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Does anyone see any issues with my current setup (long irons, that's me on the left) Three things bother me since they don't match images of the pros: 1. Both of my knees are tweaked in towards the center 2. It's hard to see but my forearms don't look rotated correctly (i.e. elbow sockets pointing at camera, w elbows pointing at hips). and 3. I may have too much back tilt toward my right foot.

I do agree that your knees look too pinched in (which may compromise your balance and restrict your movements). To fix that I'd say don't pinch in your knees.

(flaring your feet may assist with that). It looks like your grip may be responsible for your elbow positions. (Both too much on top of the club). Your left hand grip looks a little too strong, and your right hand grip a little too weak. (see the picture below for a more neautral looking grip). On your third point (spine tilt face on) it doesn't look like too much to me, and if you look at where the shirt buttons point of the pros you included their upper spines are more titled (were the shirt buttons point toward the front instep). Your posture looks off from the down the line image you attached. To be more specific it looks like your hips may be set a little too low, and your butt sticking out a little too much. That lower body posture may be directing weight too much toward your heels which could interfere with good body movement. If you can try to emulate the grip and posture pictures I have added to your image (below), and see if that helps you improve.

In my bag:

Driver: Burner TP 8.5*
Fairway metals/woods: Burner TP 13* Tour Spoon, and Burner TP 17.5*
Irons: RAC MB TP Wedges: RAC TPPutter: Spider Ball: (varies ) (Most of the time): TP Red or HX Tour/56---------------------------------------------------

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your knees look great, they should be pointed in like that. You should push your elbows as close together as possible (as recommended in Hogan's 5 lessons). You'll find that the pockets of the elbows will point to the sky when you do this. your elbows should still be pointed at your hips in this position.

To test, hold a tennis ball between your forearms. You should be able to swing back and forth to at least hip level with the ball there.
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You should push your elbows as close together as possible (as recommended in Hogan's 5 lessons).

What Hogan wrote in his book, and what he actually did are two very different things.

Below are real pictures of Hogan, and there is quite a bit of seperation between his elbows. Not what is drawn in his book. It's been mentioned before, but many knowledgable people think that what he was trying to get players to do was maintain the distance between the elbows during the swing. Hogan like most pros maintained the same distance between them from shoulder high to shoulder high back and through. While not as good an example as the images in Leadbetter's Hogan book they show that Hogan's elbows weren't pinched together during his swing.

In my bag:

Driver: Burner TP 8.5*
Fairway metals/woods: Burner TP 13* Tour Spoon, and Burner TP 17.5*
Irons: RAC MB TP Wedges: RAC TPPutter: Spider Ball: (varies ) (Most of the time): TP Red or HX Tour/56---------------------------------------------------

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Knees: some modern swing teachers are promoting both feet flared and knees pointing to toes (7 Laws book). Although I have been playing with tweaked in knees for awhile, I like the feel of this new leg setup. I think it will help me stop sliding on my downswing.

Elbows: The more I bend from the hips the closer I can get my elbows. More to work on there...

Grip: My hands are small and I may have some grip issues. Avid, good eye on a blurry image because I played for years with a weird grip like Ryan Moore (strong left, weak Right). Though I corrected this I may not be completely there. Bottom line is my grip size just feels incorrect. Not sure if I need smaller or bigger (because midsize and oversize actually feel better to me).

Setup: I am trying to get more weight towards my toes. Still a work in progress. Here is a new setup image compared to the previous. My spine angle has increased to 40 (is this too much?) Feels pretty good. Maybe I should see more knee over my toes down the line?

R7 TP 8.5* Fuji Speeder x-stiff (heavy,low,fade set)
975F 3W 13.5*
FX Tour Grind Nickel 3-PW +1/2", Rifle 6.5
Vokey SW 52*
CG10 LW 60* 3 dot (14* bounce) Tracy putter 35" (hit R but putt L)+ 1 club TBD...Past home courses: Unicorn GC (Stoneham, MA), Forest Creek GC (Round Rock, TX)Ball: Use...

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Setup: I am trying to get more weight towards my toes. Still a work in progress. Here is a new setup image compared to the previous. My spine angle has increased to 40 (is this too much?) Feels pretty good. Maybe I should see more knee over my toes down the line?

I do think you have your upper body bent over too much in the new picture. When you look at pros you will tend to see the edge of the shoulder in line with the knee caps and the balls of the feet. In the new downline image you posted there is a gap between the balls of feet/knee cap line and the edge of your shoulders (the same thing sonicblue was doing recently in his setup). I've modified you're image again (below), and included pictures of Greg Norman, Nick Price, Trevor Immelman, and Steve Elkington from downline with green balance line(s) drawn through the balls of feet, knee caps, and shoulder edge showing that for each of them those areas stack on top of one another.

Your face-on position looks better now.

In my bag:

Driver: Burner TP 8.5*
Fairway metals/woods: Burner TP 13* Tour Spoon, and Burner TP 17.5*
Irons: RAC MB TP Wedges: RAC TPPutter: Spider Ball: (varies ) (Most of the time): TP Red or HX Tour/56---------------------------------------------------

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What Hogan wrote in his book, and what he actually did are two very different things.

Let's not forget that Hogan was involved in a bad car accident that changed his body completely. He explained to John Schlee (one of his students) that he couldn't start them together like this because of this accident, but to quote (not exactly): "I'm showing you the swing that I would be doing if I was physically capable." He said that he had to bring them closer together at later parts of his swing. Also it was Hogan who recommended the tennis ball drill.

Remember in Hogan's 5 Lessons he wasn't teaching his swing, but the fundamentals stripped to their most basic nature. Everything in the book is exactly correct, in my opinion.
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I think I found a good route to good posture for me. I stand straight up and first bend my knees. As I bend my knees, I push my knee caps forward towards my toes. I do this because I see the pros with their knees more over their toes than my pics. Then, keeping my back straight, I bend from my hips until my weight is over the balls of my feet. Compared to the last pics I posted, my spine angle is more vertical and my armpits are over my knees. Feels very balanced. Sorry no pics of this, but the main thing for me was to get my knees more over my toes.

R7 TP 8.5* Fuji Speeder x-stiff (heavy,low,fade set)
975F 3W 13.5*
FX Tour Grind Nickel 3-PW +1/2", Rifle 6.5
Vokey SW 52*
CG10 LW 60* 3 dot (14* bounce) Tracy putter 35" (hit R but putt L)+ 1 club TBD...Past home courses: Unicorn GC (Stoneham, MA), Forest Creek GC (Round Rock, TX)Ball: Use...

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From downline, your wieght is too far toward your heels and lower back is curved the wrong way. Everything else is pretty good, hands can move forward a bit more.

1) Weight over the heels - this will cause you to raise up at the top of the swing since you will be moving your center of gravity backwards when you move your arms on the backswing. You may also dip forward to keep yourself from falling backwards on the backswing

2) Lower back - this back position promotes a reverse curve in the lower back promotes a reverse pivot at the top

Hope that helps.
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Here is a picture of the updated setup. I think the key for me to avoid the previously posted poor setups is to get my knees more over my toes, in fact I might even want to get them even more out than here.

One thing is still bugging me...the forearm/elbow position at setup, specifically the L arm. I can hit very good shots at times with both 1) gripped so that my L arm seems "over rotated" with the elbow pointing outside of body & elbows far apart [how my arms hangs with shoulders pinned back] or 2) gripped so that my elbows are as close as possible [how arms hang when they squeeze into pecs, or shoulders set forward]. I think image C is the first way. I can try a pic of second way but I forgot camera today.

I have seen suggestions of both "shoulders pinned back" and "elbows close together" but they seem to be contradictory for me (when I pin shoulders back, my elbows are now not even in front of me, more to side of my rib cage).

I had a terrible session at the range debating these setup issues...any suggestions for me? Should I really go for elbows close together even if I feel my shoulders pulled a bit forward?

R7 TP 8.5* Fuji Speeder x-stiff (heavy,low,fade set)
975F 3W 13.5*
FX Tour Grind Nickel 3-PW +1/2", Rifle 6.5
Vokey SW 52*
CG10 LW 60* 3 dot (14* bounce) Tracy putter 35" (hit R but putt L)+ 1 club TBD...Past home courses: Unicorn GC (Stoneham, MA), Forest Creek GC (Round Rock, TX)Ball: Use...

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I pay no attention to how my shoulders are. I just make sure that:
-the upper part of my arms are pressed very tightly against the sides of my chest
-the elbows are close together, so I can hold a tennis ball between them if I wanted
-the elbows are as close to my body as possible, not struck out from the body.
-the left elbow is pointed to the left hip and the right elbow is pointed to the right hip.
-there is a feeling of fixed jointness between the arms and wrists. This is the most important.
-the right elbow is slightly bent while the left is straight

Edit: to edit, yes the shoulders are slightly forward, but they aren't slouched over the ball. Having my shoulders pinned back does not let my arms move freely at all.

Also, I disagree with your B picture. In golf the knees work towards each other. The right knee stays braced: if it sags to the right it takes the whole body with it. The left knee breaks to the right on the back swing.... so it makes sense to start them pointed in.
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One thing is still bugging me...the forearm/elbow position at setup, specifically the L arm. I can hit very good shots at times with both 1) gripped so that my L arm seems "over rotated" with the elbow pointing outside of body & elbows far apart [how my arms hangs with shoulders pinned back] or 2) gripped so that my elbows are as close as possible [how arms hang when they squeeze into pecs, or shoulders set forward]. I think image C is the first way. I can try a pic of second way but I forgot camera today.

Have you noticed a difference in ball flight between the two arm positions (eample: lower ball flight and less distance with the close elbows together)? In Texas (where Hogan grew up) wind was an issue, and its thought that may be one of reasons he advocated the position (even though pictures of him do not show him in that position).

I'd much rather see someone with the shoulder pulled comfortably back (so that the arms hang to the sides). Nick Faldo said in Golf the Winning Formula that good golfers have the arms hanging to the side of the chest, not on top of it. If you look at women pros (Annika Sorenstam, Paula Creamer, Karrie Webb, etc) they have their arms hanging to the side. Anatomically having their arms in front of them would be a problem (their brests would be in the way). About a year ago one of the young PGA tour players (it might have been Kevin Na, or Anthony Kim) talked about pulling the shoulders back at setup being one of his keys. Having them hanging next to your rib cage will put them in a position where they can match the movement of your chest/torso easier, and pulling them forward will promote them moving more independently from the chest. If you're a believer in the one and two plane swings you could rationalize that pulling them back would fit better with a one plane swing, and pulling them forward would fit better with a two plane swing. You could do either one to too big of an extent. Ideally you want the arms and shoulders to be lacking of tension (so that they swing correctly and at maximum speed). If you pinch the arms and shoulders forward you put too much tension in them and activate the wrong muscles, but pushing them back too far could do the same thing as well. Steve Elkington talked in his book Five Fundamentals about how he thought of his arms hanging like an elephant trunk relaxed, and straight down . Elkington and Faldo both talked about how they felt they stand extremely close to the ball (with your arms pushed forward in front of the chest you are forced to stand father away not closer to the ball). Here are pro pictures for examination: to me it looks like the arms of the pros hang to the side of the rib cage, not in front of the chest, but you be the judge

In my bag:

Driver: Burner TP 8.5*
Fairway metals/woods: Burner TP 13* Tour Spoon, and Burner TP 17.5*
Irons: RAC MB TP Wedges: RAC TPPutter: Spider Ball: (varies ) (Most of the time): TP Red or HX Tour/56---------------------------------------------------

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I pay no attention to how my shoulders are. I just make sure that:

You can actually hold a tennis ball between your arms at elbow height? I would have to squeeze really hard to do that. How can one comfortably do that because I must be doing something totally wrong for it to be that hard.

My Clubs
Nicklaus Progressive XC Irons: 3H,4H, 5-GW
Ray Cook SW & Gyro 1 Putter
Taylor Made Burner Driver 10.5
Taylor Made V-Steel 3 & 5 MetalsMy Home Course: Indian RiverMy Blog: Rant-o-Rama-Ding-Dong

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I don't agree Avid Golfer. Hogan advocated having the arms as close together as possible because this helps them act as one unit. He wants you to feel like you are swinging with one big arm. Having them close together also makes your arch longer and more consistent.

He put it in 5 Lessons because he feels it is a fundamental. Pictures of him don't show the arms as close together as possible because it was painful for him to do it. You can be sure though, that if it wasn't painful he would have been doing it.

It's true that the arms should be on the sides of the chest, not on top. Having them on top slouches your shoulders and creates no active tension. The upper part of the arms should be pressed hard against the sides of the chest. This gives you a sense of fixed jointness between the arms and the wrists, and when you have this it tends to bring all the elements of the swing together.

I don't believe in "relax and play golf," and neither did Hogan. I press the upper part of my arms so hard against the sides of my chest that you couldn't break them apart.
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Similar ball flight and distance...maybe a little more distance with shoulders pinned back.

I posted more pics:
D. arms forward, elbows close
E. arms back/hanging, elbows far

I am looking for more of a tension-free feel...seems more comfortable to me. I have to admit, setup D looks real good to me, but my arms, specifically upper arms) are under tension. Recall they also are a bit strained in C because when my arms and shoulders are back, I have a hard time getting my hands together on the club without breaking another setup law (e.g. I would have to drag my left arm too far to the right). Short arms for my size.

In Setup E, I think I have found a tension-free solution by bumping both my knees and hips forward to the left at address (I am experimenting with then bringing R knee back). Doing this brings my hanging left arm back closer to my right hand so that I can grab a club tension-free. I saw a similar drill in a Leadbetter book.

I had a much better range day today and just need to choose one setup and go with it. One more thing: won't the centrifugal force from my swing bring my shoulders/arms forward on the downswing? If so would it make sense to preset like that?

Also, about the forearms, imagine I do a bicep curl with my left arm at address to make a L shape (face on)...where would my L hand end up? Mine ends up more centered in my stance, but I feel like it may be proper to be in line with the left leg...

R7 TP 8.5* Fuji Speeder x-stiff (heavy,low,fade set)
975F 3W 13.5*
FX Tour Grind Nickel 3-PW +1/2", Rifle 6.5
Vokey SW 52*
CG10 LW 60* 3 dot (14* bounce) Tracy putter 35" (hit R but putt L)+ 1 club TBD...Past home courses: Unicorn GC (Stoneham, MA), Forest Creek GC (Round Rock, TX)Ball: Use...

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Note: This thread is 5739 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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