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"Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan - Page 15

post #253 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

I think every Hogan devotee over that past 60 years had faced the same dilemma. I am not a pro, but I have carefully read Five Lessons a bunch of times, so I'll just share what I see from the book to answer some of your questions.

1. You have to put your body in what ever position it needs to get too so you can have the imaginary plane of glass resting on your shoulders. The glass angle is going to vary on your club selection. So for a driver it will feel more upright. For a chip with a lob wedge, you will feel more bent over.

2-3. I could never figure out the life line thing. I would do exactly what Hogan shows. Palm facing target, fingers extended, put the club below the palm, as he shows in the diagram. Hold with the two middle fingers. The folding the palm of the right hand over, because there is a lot to fold over, has always been confusing. So I bought a Mark OMeara golf grip, which is supposedly based upon Hogans grip. Then I turn the book upside down and try to figure out if my grip looks like Hogan's grip as he sees it.

4. Remember, in the overlap grip he is specific. It locks inbetween the middle and index finger. Also notice that he darkens the right pinky, meaning he is emphasizing that part of the grip.

5. The answer to this question is what is referred to as the Mystique of the Hogan swing. People, since the books publication have benn trying to figure this one out. The person who can figure out your question number 5, will become an instant millionaire and the most sought after golf instructor in the world.
post #254 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post
timastyle:
1. He was only 5'7" so he will appear more upright. See p. 77, middle, for his explanation of what "flat" and "upright" mean.
2. See drawing on p. 28, bottom and text above.
3. See drawings on p. 25.
4. See paragraph on p. 20 beginning, "The standard grip . . ." The only mention of an interlocking grip refers to an abandoned experiment he made when he was growing up (p. 32).
5. See paragraph on p. 93 beginning, "What do the hands do? . . .", and drawing on p. 95. Read and imitate.
Thanks for the page numbers to all my questions. I only wish I had the book with me at work to look them up. I will definitely look into these tonight. Thanks again.
post #255 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Originally Posted by alansmithdc View Post
I think every Hogan devotee over that past 60 years had faced the same dilemma. I am not a pro, but I have carefully read Five Lessons a bunch of times, so I'll just share what I see from the book to answer some of your questions.

1. You have to put your body in what ever position it needs to get too so you can have the imaginary plane of glass resting on your shoulders. The glass angle is going to vary on your club selection. So for a driver it will feel more upright. For a chip with a lob wedge, you will feel more bent over.

2-3. I could never figure out the life line thing. I would do exactly what Hogan shows. Palm facing target, fingers extended, put the club below the palm, as he shows in the diagram. Hold with the two middle fingers. The folding the palm of the right hand over, because there is a lot to fold over, has always been confusing. So I bought a Mark OMeara golf grip, which is supposedly based upon Hogans grip. Then I turn the book upside down and try to figure out if my grip looks like Hogan's grip as he sees it.

4. Remember, in the overlap grip he is specific. It locks inbetween the middle and index finger. Also notice that he darkens the right pinky, meaning he is emphasizing that part of the grip.

5. The answer to this question is what is referred to as the Mystique of the Hogan swing. People, since the books publication have benn trying to figure this one out. The person who can figure out your question number 5, will become an instant millionaire and the most sought after golf instructor in the world.
Thanks for the advice.

As far as the "there's is a lot to fold over" part, I believe he is saying that there in order to get your right hand gripped properly, there is a bit of folding over to do with the hand to have the right hand fingers in the right place and the palm as well. I know for me, because of my previous grip, it feels as though I'm almost wrapping my right hand all the way around to the left side of the club (although I'm really not. just feels that way) in order to get the right grip and use the checkpoint of the V at my chin.

For the overlap grip, he said that he's tried many different grips, including the interlock, and believesthe overlap is the best. It just feels very awkward for me as I've always played with an interlocking grip. I'm wondering if it really makes THAT much of a difference which you go with.
post #256 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

I have the same feelings of folding all of the excess right palm over. The overlap feels a lot different than the interlocking grip. I changed from interlocking grip to overlap grip because the world's greatest striker of a golf ball told me too. So I adapted. After you use it for a while, you will get used to it. Then your old interlocking grip will feel awkward.
post #257 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Originally Posted by alansmithdc View Post
I have the same feelings of folding all of the excess right palm over. The overlap feels a lot different than the interlocking grip. I changed from interlocking grip to overlap grip because the world's greatest striker of a golf ball told me too. So I adapted. After you use it for a while, you will get used to it. Then your old interlocking grip will feel awkward.
I'm going to be going to the range after work. Will try out the overlapping grip and see how that goes. One more question...did you go step by step in incorporating the changes or did you try and implement all of them at once? What I mean by this is that I have the grip down, but my concern is more the stance, keeping elbows tucked in, backswing on plane, etc. Were those done in installments or all at once?
post #258 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

timastyle, you might want to get a copy of David Leadbetter's book, The Fundamentals of Hogan. He does an outstanding job of explaining Five Lessons, and his book contains the photographs on which Anthony Ravielli based his drawings.
post #259 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post
timastyle, you might want to get a copy of David Leadbetter's book, The Fundamentals of Hogan. He does an outstanding job of explaining Five Lessons, and his book contains the photographs on which Anthony Ravielli based his drawings.
Thanks TRC. I'll look into the book and probably pick one up. I've gone the last two days to the range with only one club (7i) and worked on the various things in Five Lessons. I feel a bit more comfortable with the whole grip, stance and all, but a lot more work to be done with it. My main issue is trying to hit the ball too hard and throws my tempo off. It's more of a mental block for me I think in that with a lower lofted club, I feel like I have to swing harder to get it out there rather than just let the loft do the work with a nice, in temp, swing. For example, when I have my 58*, I put a nice and easy swing and get the ball to where I want it to go. When I get the 6i, I get jerky to get it out there too far. Plan for that is to take my 58* and a 7i and work with the 58* to get the tempo going, then take the 7i and try and emulate the same swing. Hopefully that helps a bit.
post #260 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Remember. Hogan said that the harder he hit the ball, the straighter the ball traveled. Don't be a afraid to smash the heck out of that white little thing.
post #261 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Hogan said to spend a week on the grip, a week on the stance, a week on the backswing and a week on the downswing. I think he said it would take the average golfer 6 months to start breaking 80, however
post #262 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Another point to consider. As far as I can tell, no one swung at a golf ball like Hogan, and no one has since. Therefore, Hogan's teachings are going to be completely different than anyone else. There is no such thing as blended teaching styles. It's either Hogan or it's everyone else. Most teachings today are directed to get golfers to swing like modern day PGA pros. Hogan's swing was nothing like modern day PGA pro's. If you decide to swing like Hogan, then you have to closely=closely follow all of his instructions, especially the drawings. There are huge differences between Hogan's teachings and modern day teachings. For example, on the page showing a down the line view, with the sheet of glass and the shading of the tracks the back swing of the club. When Hogan's hands are hip high, the golf club is not parallel to the target line, the toe of the club is not pointed to the sky, the thumbs are not pointed to the sky, a laser beam traveling out the head of the club (like a lot of those laser teaching aides) does not point along the target line. His arm is parallel to the plane, and not only that, it is not touching the plane, it is below the plane. On the page showing the waggle, and takeaway, from the front view, notice that at the end of the takeaway, the right forearm is in line with the right wrist. A lot of teaching methods have the right wrist in a more dorsiflexed position so the right wrist is cupped. You may ask, "So what's the big deal"? The answer is "Plenty". The first few inches, the first few feet that the club travels on the back swing determines the scope of the remainder of the swing.
The problem with trying to swing like Hogan, is that your swing will look like no one else. Since everyone else is trying to swing like modern day PGA pros, a problem occurs. My conflict is that I play with very well intentioned, well meaning, great golfers. The problem is that the advice they give is not directed towards swinging like Hogan. It is aimed towards swinging like the modern day principles, which are far removed from the way Hogan swung. It is hard. Because as you are learning, there are going to be a lot of mishits. It is easy to become discouraged. Then a really good golfer comes along and says, "All you have to do is ..." The next thing, you are off the Hogan train, and getting lost in a lot of other people's theories. I think it is noble to swing like the world's greatest striker of a golf ball. It has been hard to ignore others advice, especially when you see them killing the ball. But, I have stuck to my guns. As such I have experienced the great shots that Hogan talked about. I've hit the Hogan fade, I've hit the sculled wedge shot that spins with maximum backspin and stops on a dime. There have also been a lot of mishits. But I haven't abandoned the ship. Really study Five Lessons with a fine tooth comb. Don't listen to anybody else. Let Hogan be the teacher, and you be his student.
post #263 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

on page 89 of Five Lessons, note the flat lie angle of the club. Since Hogan's swing was completely different than anyone elses, his clubs were different to compensate for his swing. Most clubs are designed to work with a modern day swing, more upright. These upright clubs will not work with a Hogan swing. I've gone to golf shops. The flatest lie I could find was 2 Degrees flat. I suspect that Hogan's clubs are more in the 5-6 degree flat range. The investment cast clubs are hard to bend. If you have them bend a forged iron, it will always come with the caveat that they cannot guarentee against breakage. I solved the problem by purchasing Hogan Round Soles on ebay. Then had the clubfitter bend them flatter. If they broke, then I wasn't out a lot of money. Luckily they didnt. If you don't have flat lie angles, you will not be able to make consistent contact on the ball.
post #264 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Originally Posted by timastyle View Post

For the overlap grip, he said that he's tried many different grips, including the interlock, and believesthe overlap is the best. It just feels very awkward for me as I've always played with an interlocking grip. I'm wondering if it really makes THAT much of a difference which you go with.
In fact Hogan tried every grip out there on the market. He arrived at a variation of the vardon grip where rather than the pinky finger of the right hand riding the index of the left, it fits in the groove between the index finger and FU finger of the left hand.

When I started golf my hero was / still is Jack Nicklaus so obviously I had an interlocking grip. However like everyone starting off I was casting the club bad. After reading five lessons and trying out both my JN grip (interlocked) and the hogan style grip I can tell you it did wonders for me. I can have lag without thinking about it. Having lag with my fingers interlocked was more difficult than the hogan style grip. Since I've changed and my regular instructor I check in with every month said he noticed the difference immediately. So now I've got two heros. Nicklaus and Hogan are tied.

The moral of the story, if you truely want to see how it works for you. Do what Hogan did... try them all and go with the one that yeilds the best results. BTW... recently I've been hitting my driver somewhat incosnstently and I tried for a round playing my driver with the JN grip. My drives seemed to do better, and I'm speculating that the driver is the one club in the bag where lag is not always desired as much as I've put into my iron shots.
post #265 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Originally Posted by alansmithdc View Post
on page 89 of Five Lessons, note the flat lie angle of the club. Since Hogan's swing was completely different than anyone elses, his clubs were different to compensate for his swing. Most clubs are designed to work with a modern day swing, more upright. These upright clubs will not work with a Hogan swing. I've gone to golf shops. The flatest lie I could find was 2 Degrees flat. I suspect that Hogan's clubs are more in the 5-6 degree flat range.
The specs for Hogan's irons, listed in Jody Vasquez's book, Afternoons With Mr. Hogan, are, in relation to industry standard, 2i-0.5*F; 3i-1*F; 4i-0.5*F; 5i-2*F; 6i-1*F; 7i-2*F; 8i-1.5*F; 9i-2*F; PW-1*F; GW-1*F; SW-1*U; Driver-1*F; 3W-E.
post #266 of 414
Interesting observation. I'll have to try interlock with the driver.

I know someone else said Hogan's irons were 6 degrees flat. He supposedly visited Shady Oaks. I know a guy who hit Hogan's actual clubs. I'll try to find out. I doubt that he was paying attention to the lie angle, but who knows.

I checked with the guy who actually hit Hogan's personal clubs at Shady Oaks, taken right out of the display case. He said they were 6 degrees flat.
post #267 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Great book so far read the first 2 lessons yesterday, but my question is that, I have a flatter arch on my right foot, which over time has caused that foot to toe out a bit more naturally, I'm thinking I may have to compensate for that when I try Ben's stance recommendations. Just curious if anyone has experimented with the feet based on Ben's suggestions and how those adjustments affected your swing.

Thanks!
post #268 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Originally Posted by alansmithdc View Post
Interesting observation. I'll have to try interlock with the driver.

I know someone else said Hogan's irons were 6 degrees flat. He supposedly visited Shady Oaks. I know a guy who hit Hogan's actual clubs. I'll try to find out. I doubt that he was paying attention to the lie angle, but who knows.

I checked with the guy who actually hit Hogan's personal clubs at Shady Oaks, taken right out of the display case. He said they were 6 degrees flat.
I wonder he figured that out? It's one thing to say they're flatter than normal, but another to come up with a specific figure, especially one that is that far from standard. Just sayin'.
post #269 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

He is a professional golfer who is well schooled in club design. He was in a foursome with Lee Jensen and Tony Romo. Neither could hit Hogan's club. The pro was able too. He knows Hogan's secret and is able to get the club on the backswing and downswing planes Hogan talked about in Five Lessons. The clubs need to be that flat in order to utilize Hogan's secret. I have been told Hogan's secret. The problem is that when I share it, no one understands it. So, I'm relegated to talking about with it with just a few people who understand it. I think the secret is hard for most people to capitalize on because it requires the golfer, as Hogan said, to "“Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.” People have a very hard time reversing their instincts, which is why I think people have not discovered Hogan's secret or don't use Hogan's secret. (The cupping of the left wrist at the top of the swing, mentioned in the Life magazine article, is only an effect of using the secret.) That is why Hogan said he could look at a person's position at the top and know right away if they were going to use his secret.
post #270 of 414

Re: "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" by Ben Hogan

Originally Posted by alansmithdc View Post
He is a professional golfer who is well schooled in club design. He was in a foursome with Lee Jensen and Tony Romo. Neither could hit Hogan's club. The pro was able too. He knows Hogan's secret and is able to get the club on the backswing and downswing planes Hogan talked about in Five Lessons. The clubs need to be that flat in order to utilize Hogan's secret. I have been told Hogan's secret. The problem is that when I share it, no one understands it. So, I'm relegated to talking about with it with just a few people who understand it. I think the secret is hard for most people to capitalize on because it requires the golfer, as Hogan said, to "“Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.” People have a very hard time reversing their instincts, which is why I think people have not discovered Hogan's secret or don't use Hogan's secret. (The cupping of the left wrist at the top of the swing, mentioned in the Life magazine article, is only an effect of using the secret.) That is why Hogan said he could look at a person's position at the top and know right away if they were going to use his secret.
I thought Hogan's secret was the tunnel under Col. Klink's prisoner camp........ Where in thre book does he mention a "secret"? I do not recall him letting that on or was that a few hundred threads ago?
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