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post #127 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

( I thinks we should open a bogey golfer, HI from 16 - 22, only thread to share common ideas, and experiences.   No disrespect to low cappers in this forum but sometimes I think they don't understand our flight.   Either they started golf early in their life and were taught good fundamentals or forgot what it was like for them to be a bogey golfer.  )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 

You make a point.  A 24 is playing little bit different game than a 14 who is playing a little different game than a 4.  When I changed strategy and focused more on protecting bogie instead of getting par - my scores got better.  I'd imagine a low cap might gasp at the thought of playing for a bogie.

 

Given that I understand you both may be the exceptions, please understand what I'm saying: you're either the exceptions, you're not understanding what is being said, or you're wrong.

 

This stuff matters - the long game matters - as much to a higher handicapper as anyone else. It matters as much to a 24 as to a 14 as to a 4 as to a guy with 14 majors.

 

I think a lot of you higher handicappers - and I've played with a LOT of them with this kind of topic in mind the whole time - anyway, it seems to me that some of you are misleading yourselves. For example, a guy I played with had 31 putts. He hit six GIR. He didn't hit any horrendous shots - just a few slightly heavy or thin, or misses left and right. On the last hole he had an eight-footer for par, which he made, and he said "where has THAT been all day?" I asked him about that, and he bemoaned his short game and putting let him down all day.

 

We went through his round, and yes, he often chipped and pitched to about ten feet. He three-putted once on a GIR (from 50 feet) and his average first putt distance on his other GIRs was over 35 feet. He put tremendous pressure on his short game, and it let him down. You could have put a scratch player in the spots he hit his ball to around the greens and the scratch golfer would have improved his score by about five shots. That was it. He kept putting himself in bad spots, and that's on his long game. He never took a penalty, but he shot 89. If he had his best short game day AND made 10% more putts than a PGA Tour player makes from the ranges he left himself, he still wouldn't have broken 80.

 

So no, I disagree that you need another thread (I think you've already started one, but it likely won't be to your benefit). I think you should trust that the stats being discussed apply to your level as much as mine or Tiger's.

 

I think a lot of you remember the missed eight-footer because you're closer to the hole. You don't remember that your tee shot left you trying to hit a 4-iron in, instead of a 7-iron, and that you caught your 4I a tad heavy and had to pitch from a steep upslope in front of the green. Those two shots penalized you far more than your pitch and putt.

 

As I've said before: if you have three days and need to shoot a lower score, practice your short game. But that's only going to improve your score so much. The only way to lower your score long-term and in big chunks is to improve your full swing game.

post #128 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Given that I understand you both may be the exceptions, please understand what I'm saying: you're either the exceptions, you're not understanding what is being said, or you're wrong.

 

This stuff matters - the long game matters - as much to a higher handicapper as anyone else. It matters as much to a 24 as to a 14 as to a 4 as to a guy with 14 majors.

 

I think a lot of you higher handicappers - and I've played with a LOT of them with this kind of topic in mind the whole time - anyway, it seems to me that some of you are misleading yourselves. For example, a guy I played with had 31 putts. He hit six GIR. He didn't hit any horrendous shots - just a few slightly heavy or thin, or misses left and right. On the last hole he had an eight-footer for par, which he made, and he said "where has THAT been all day?" I asked him about that, and he bemoaned his short game and putting let him down all day.

 

We went through his round, and yes, he often chipped and pitched to about ten feet. He three-putted once on a GIR (from 50 feet) and his average first putt distance on his other GIRs was over 35 feet. He put tremendous pressure on his short game, and it let him down. You could have put a scratch player in the spots he hit his ball to around the greens and the scratch golfer would have improved his score by about five shots. That was it. He kept putting himself in bad spots, and that's on his long game. He never took a penalty, but he shot 89. If he had his best short game day AND made 10% more putts than a PGA Tour player makes from the ranges he left himself, he still wouldn't have broken 80.

 

So no, I disagree that you need another thread (I think you've already started one, but it likely won't be to your benefit). I think you should trust that the stats being discussed apply to your level as much as mine or Tiger's.

 

I think a lot of you remember the missed eight-footer because you're closer to the hole. You don't remember that your tee shot left you trying to hit a 4-iron in, instead of a 7-iron, and that you caught your 4I a tad heavy and had to pitch from a steep upslope in front of the green. Those two shots penalized you far more than your pitch and putt.

 

As I've said before: if you have three days and need to shoot a lower score, practice your short game. But that's only going to improve your score so much. The only way to lower your score long-term and in big chunks is to improve your full swing game.


I agree with this. It pretty much sums it up for me.

post #129 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

This stuff matters - the long game matters - as much to a higher handicapper as anyone else. It matters as much to a 24 as to a 14 as to a 4 as to a guy with 14 majors.

 

Yes, and I see it more likely for a 24 to get down to a 14 in a less stressful manner if their drive is cleaner. I am a clear example of that, and I don't even drive that straight yet (need another lesson from Mike on Keys 3,4,5 :-)).

post #130 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 

 

Fairways: 57% (but keep in mind these are short - I don't carry driver)

GIR: 21% (mostly par 3's I'd imagine)

Putts Per Hole: 1.89 (this probably sounds good, but it is because I hit so few greens - so I'm chipping from pretty close a lot)

Up and Down Percentage: 31% (this means from really pretty close - not from 70 yds and such)

 

 I can only imagine if I was getting 57% of fairways, but hitting driver 250 or 260 a lot of the time instead of 180 yard 4i's and 210 yd hybrids.  I feel like most of my approach shots are from about 160-180.  What if I was approaching from 125?  Wow that would be fun.

 

This might give you an idea, these are my stats from the last 20 rounds. I use a driver quite a bit but not 14 times a round. A couple courses I play have 3 par 3's on one side and few short par 4's, sub 330, usually have too much trouble to risk it. I've been stuck in the 9-10 range for a few months. I play from 6500-6800 yds most of the time. I don't have stats for how long my avg. approach shot is but I'd guess in the 140-180 range.

 

FIR 51.3%

GIR 44.4%

2.01 putts

Avg. Drive 255

post #131 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

This might give you an idea, these are my stats from the last 20 rounds. I use a driver quite a bit but not 14 times a round. A couple courses I play have 3 par 3's on one side and few short par 4's, sub 330, usually have too much trouble to risk it. I've been stuck in the 9-10 range for a few months. I play from 6500-6800 yds most of the time. I don't have stats for how long my avg. approach shot is but I'd guess in the 140-180 range.

 

FIR 51.3%

GIR 44.4%

2.01 putts

Avg. Drive 255


Nice putting average!

 

255+160 is about 415 average, are your par 4s pretty long?

post #132 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
( I thinks we should open a bogey golfer, HI from 16 - 22, only thread to share common ideas, and experiences.   No disrespect to low cappers in this forum but sometimes I think they don't understand our flight.   Either they started golf early in their life and were taught good fundamentals or forgot what it was like for them to be a bogey golfer.  
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
You make a point.  A 24 is playing little bit different game than a 14 who is playing a little different game than a 4.  When I changed strategy and focused more on protecting bogie instead of getting par - my scores got better.  I'd imagine a low cap might gasp at the thought of playing for a bogie.

Given that I understand you both may be the exceptions, please understand what I'm saying: you're either the exceptions, you're not understanding what is being said, or you're wrong.

 

This stuff matters - the long game matters - as much to a higher handicapper as anyone else. It matters as much to a 24 as to a 14 as to a 4 as to a guy with 14 majors.

 

I think a lot of you higher handicappers - and I've played with a LOT of them with this kind of topic in mind the whole time - anyway, it seems to me that some of you are misleading yourselves. For example, a guy I played with had 31 putts. He hit six GIR. He didn't hit any horrendous shots - just a few slightly heavy or thin, or misses left and right. On the last hole he had an eight-footer for par, which he made, and he said "where has THAT been all day?" I asked him about that, and he bemoaned his short game and putting let him down all day.

 

We went through his round, and yes, he often chipped and pitched to about ten feet. He three-putted once on a GIR (from 50 feet) and his average first putt distance on his other GIRs was over 35 feet. He put tremendous pressure on his short game, and it let him down. You could have put a scratch player in the spots he hit his ball to around the greens and the scratch golfer would have improved his score by about five shots. That was it. He kept putting himself in bad spots, and that's on his long game. He never took a penalty, but he shot 89. If he had his best short game day AND made 10% more putts than a PGA Tour player makes from the ranges he left himself, he still wouldn't have broken 80.

 

So no, I disagree that you need another thread (I think you've already started one, but it likely won't be to your benefit). I think you should trust that the stats being discussed apply to your level as much as mine or Tiger's.

 

I think a lot of you remember the missed eight-footer because you're closer to the hole. You don't remember that your tee shot left you trying to hit a 4-iron in, instead of a 7-iron, and that you caught your 4I a tad heavy and had to pitch from a steep upslope in front of the green. Those two shots penalized you far more than your pitch and putt.

 

As I've said before: if you have three days and need to shoot a lower score, practice your short game. But that's only going to improve your score so much. The only way to lower your score long-term and in big chunks is to improve your full swing game.

 

Yeah, something got lost in transition.  I have been trying to convey how important I think the long game is - notably for me (Post 77, 88, 119).  I wrote a specific rebuttal to inthehole who wrote that your "long game is more important" theory might only apply to elite players and low cappers.  But I am not an elite player or low capper - and I lowered my handicap by working on long game almost exclusively. 

 

You are saying that long game is more important right?  If so - I'm agreeing with you. 

 

Regarding the 24/14/4 - I was just referring to my own experience with playing with better players.  They often find it strange that you don't carry a driver or that you aren't going to try to carry the water or that you are going to lay up on a par 4 b/c you are 210 out, etc.  These are some strategies I've employed to improve - but people - notably low cappers - tend to question me about it.  To quote rkim "they don't understand our flight".

post #133 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 

Fairways: 57% (but keep in mind these are short - I don't carry driver)

GIR: 21% (mostly par 3's I'd imagine)

Putts Per Hole: 1.89 (this probably sounds good, but it is because I hit so few greens - so I'm chipping from pretty close a lot)

Up and Down Percentage: 31% (this means from really pretty close - not from 70 yds and such)

 

 I can only imagine if I was getting 57% of fairways, but hitting driver 250 or 260 a lot of the time instead of 180 yard 4i's and 210 yd hybrids.  I feel like most of my approach shots are from about 160-180.  What if I was approaching from 125?  Wow that would be fun.

This might give you an idea, these are my stats from the last 20 rounds. I use a driver quite a bit but not 14 times a round. A couple courses I play have 3 par 3's on one side and few short par 4's, sub 330, usually have too much trouble to risk it. I've been stuck in the 9-10 range for a few months. I play from 6500-6800 yds most of the time. I don't have stats for how long my avg. approach shot is but I'd guess in the 140-180 range.

 

FIR 51.3%

GIR 44.4%

2.01 putts

Avg. Drive 255

 

You're killing me in distance and greens.  And you are 7 strokes better.  It is painting a picture.

post #134 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

 

As I've said before: if you have three days and need to shoot a lower score, practice your short game. But that's only going to improve your score so much. The only way to lower your score long-term and in big chunks is to improve your full swing game.

 

I agree with this completely.

 

I can hit up to 80 yard shots in my back yard.  I practice my short game a few days a week in the summer.  The only long game practice I get is actually playing or on the range.  When I play, it is usually around 36 holes at a crack, every two weeks.  Before I play, I will hit a medium bag of balls.  This is not enough balls/time to work on anything.  I am usually trying to find something consistent that I can use that day.

 

I truly feel I will never break into the 70's (best round is lower 80's, usually shoot upper 80's,lower 90's) without improving my long game.

post #135 of 511

Not sure everyone read the actual article at the beginning of this thread, but a key point was this:

 

Quote:
Broadie, who is a four handicap, knows the heresy his research suggests. He is not recommending that everyone abandon short-game clinics. He said, in fact, that his findings are not inconsistent with the accepted instruction doctrine that practicing the short game may be the easiest way to score lower.

 

The reason is, that while the long game may be the biggest separator between players at different levels, not everyone can become great at the long game.  But anyone who works at it enough can become a good short game player.  Not everyone is capable of hitting 280 yard drives.  And the fact is, distance is a big separator for better players.  While there may be a limited degree to which most can improve distance however, many golfers can gain a lot from improving accuracy in their long game. 

 

So what the research actually suggests is that some will do better focusing on improving the short game, while others will improve more by focusing on the long game.  I thought his formula was interesting. 

 

For all approach shots from between 100 and 150 yards from the green, measure how far away the shot ends from the hole.  Divide the remaining distance by the starting distance.   Take your median for this ratio (after playing 18 holes), and compare to the following:
 

5.6% PGA professional

8.7% Low handicap, average score 79

12.0% Mid handicap, average score 90

17.3% High handicap, average score 104

 

Match your percentage to the closest group and:
 

Quote:

 

If your 18-hole scores are higher then the group's average score, work on your short game.

If your 18-hole scores are lower than the group's average, your long game needs more work.

 

 

Note that nothing in this formula measures your distance off the tee!  Working on the long game here seems to be primarily about improving accuracy.  If you aren't accurate on fairways shots from 100-150 yards, you aren't likely going to be accurate off the tee, either. 

post #136 of 511

IMHO, if you have played enough golf then this should be clear. Your best rounds don't come because you suddenly had 20 putts compared to your normal 34 or chipped in 5 times. The variances just aren't that big. Your best rounds are (usually) when you were in the zone off the tee.

 

I play with a guy (around 18-19 HI) who hits a huge slice. Always gets him in trouble and he's got an uphill battle on just about every hole. One round he just wasn't slicing it as bad and it was more of a fade. He hit fairway after fairway and that same swing translated to his approaches and he hit green after green. Ironically he missed a bunch of putts that he could have made and still shot a 77. Not because his short game got better but because his terrible long game took a day off. By the way, the next round the slice was back and he didn't break 100.

post #137 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
 

So what the research actually suggests is that some will do better focusing on improving the short game, while others will improve more by focusing on the long game.

 

I don't think that's quite what it's saying. I think it's saying "don't give up on practicing your short game completely" (it still matters, it's just not quite as important as the full swing) as well as what I said above about having three days to get better.

 

It's also saying that, yes, there are some people who have better long games than their short games. But those people are the exceptions, and I would suggest they're a much smaller exception than those who have better short games than their long games.

post #138 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 

 

Yeah, something got lost in transition.  I have been trying to convey how important I think the long game is - notably for me (Post 77, 88, 119).  I wrote a specific rebuttal to inthehole who wrote that your "long game is more important" theory might only apply to elite players and low cappers.  But I am not an elite player or low capper - and I lowered my handicap by working on long game almost exclusively. 

 

You are saying that long game is more important right?  If so - I'm agreeing with you. 

 

Regarding the 24/14/4 - I was just referring to my own experience with playing with better players.  They often find it strange that you don't carry a driver or that you aren't going to try to carry the water or that you are going to lay up on a par 4 b/c you are 210 out, etc.  These are some strategies I've employed to improve - but people - notably low cappers - tend to question me about it.  To quote rkim "they don't understand our flight".

 

Ditto - see bold above.  In this same thread, I said I need to double down on my long game.   Improving it will get me to the next level.   

 

Iacas - But I don't believe long game is more important for every golfer out there or vice versa.  This is not a math equation where there is only one answer for all.  You can be a scratch golfer and putting may be what's holding you up to join Web.com tour.   You can be a bogey golfer with poor long game (like me) and need to focus on it 70% of the practice time.      To pigeon hole everyone to follow one or the other on something like this is one's opinion at best.   People in this forum can agree to disagree.  

post #139 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

Iacas - But I don't believe long game is more important for every golfer out there or vice versa.  This is not a math equation where there is only one answer for all. 

 

You're misunderstanding something - the long game is more important for all golfers, but you can still have plenty of golfers who really have a lousy short game and who need to work on that, or golfers who have a great short game but can never really get better at their long games, so they're kind of stuck where they are.

 

Both "the long game is more important for all golfers" and those situations can exist and they can all be true. More below…

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

To pigeon hole everyone to follow one or the other on something like this is one's opinion at best.

 

That's not what that means. You're reading it the wrong way or something. This kind of stuff isn't about pigeon holing anyone. It's the opposite of that - it's taking a look at the whole, and saying "the long game matters more." Obviously not every single person is going to fit the exact same mold. But "overall" is the opposite of "in your specific case, you really need to work on x".

post #140 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 


Nice putting average!

 

255+160 is about 415 average, are your par 4s pretty long?

I play two different tees at my home course, blacks and blues depending who I am paired with. It saves time if we get paired with people playing whites, it's a long story.

 

Blue tee par 4's are 420-432-418-332-382-442-406-390-370-352

 

                      Black 432-446-437-349-396-460-424-406-386-369

 

My average is a little low for CO because it's an average of everything I hit from the tee. There some 3w and 4i in there as well as the 200 yd duff here and there. I could ignore the bad stuff but I input everything at the end of the round just to have HBH stats to reference later. I'm not overly concerned about distance like some are and the product I use is only so detailed. I do go back and look at scoring average for past rounds. I want to know why I made a double or worse, especially if it's happening on the same holes.

post #141 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

I play two different tees at my home course, blacks and blues depending who I am paired with. It saves time if we get paired with people playing whites, it's a long story.

 

Blue tee par 4's are 420-432-418-332-382-442-406-390-370-352

 

                      Black 432-446-437-349-396-460-424-406-386-369

 

My average is a little low for CO because it's an average of everything I hit from the tee. There some 3w and 4i in there as well as the 200 yd duff here and there. I could ignore the bad stuff but I input everything at the end of the round just to have HBH stats to reference later. I'm not overly concerned about distance like some are and the product I use is only so detailed. I do go back and look at scoring average for past rounds. I want to know why I made a double or worse, especially if it's happening on the same holes.

 

That's a long course.   Is it b/c Brighton, CO is 5000 feet up from sea level? 

post #142 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

 

That's a long course.   Is it b/c Brighton, CO is 5000 feet up from sea level?

It's not long for CO. The black tees at my home course aren't the tips. Yes the ball flies here.

post #143 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 View Post

 

You guys cannot tell me that people who can consistently keep a 300 yard drive or a 230 yard 4-iron in play do not have an insane advantage over the rest of us. Guys like that can play from 7000+ yards like it's nothing. Obviously you don't need to hit 300 yard drives to play from that far back (250 is fine), but still... 7000+ yard golf is the modern game.... not "training wheels" golf like those of us who play from 6400 yards or something (like me). 

 

I agree, but you forgot about accuracy. That's the difference between a high handicapper and a low handicapper.

 

 

I don't think you read my post. I wrote extensively about GIR and proximity to the hole being the biggest, most devastating blow you can deliver to a golf course. GIR and proximity to the hole are a measurement of both power and accuracy. 

post #144 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

 

( I thinks we should open a bogey golfer, HI from 16 - 22, only thread to share common ideas, and experiences.   No disrespect to low cappers in this forum but sometimes I think they don't understand our flight.   Either they started golf early in their life and were taught good fundamentals or forgot what it was like for them to be a bogey golfer.  )

 

Correct, most if not all low handicappers started off as high handicappers.   They didn't become low handicappers because they spent most of their time working on their short game, they made big improvements with their long game.  If you want to improve for the long-term devote more time to the long game.  You can have Seve's short game and not come close to breaking 80 if you chunck, top or thin every other shot.  (When I say "you" I don't mean you rkim)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

 

I agree, but you forgot about accuracy. That's the difference between a high handicapper and a low handicapper.

 

And accuracy doesn't always mean, "in the fairway".  When good players miss it they tend to be in less trouble than when high handicappers miss it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I think a lot of you higher handicappers - and I've played with a LOT of them with this kind of topic in mind the whole time - anyway, it seems to me that some of you are misleading yourselves. For example, a guy I played with had 31 putts. He hit six GIR. He didn't hit any horrendous shots - just a few slightly heavy or thin, or misses left and right. On the last hole he had an eight-footer for par, which he made, and he said "where has THAT been all day?" I asked him about that, and he bemoaned his short game and putting let him down all day.

 

We went through his round, and yes, he often chipped and pitched to about ten feet. He three-putted once on a GIR (from 50 feet) and his average first putt distance on his other GIRs was over 35 feet. He put tremendous pressure on his short game, and it let him down. You could have put a scratch player in the spots he hit his ball to around the greens and the scratch golfer would have improved his score by about five shots. That was it. He kept putting himself in bad spots, and that's on his long game. He never took a penalty, but he shot 89. If he had his best short game day AND made 10% more putts than a PGA Tour player makes from the ranges he left himself, he still wouldn't have broken 80.

 

 

Great example.  

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