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Relative Importance of the Long Game, Short Game, etc. (Mark Broadie, Strokes Gained, etc.) - Page 12

post #199 of 511
Of course, you did pay for all 14 clubs, and if your tee shots are too good you won't have a chance to use all of them as much. a1_smile.gif
post #200 of 511
Here's how it boils down for me...

I would much rather have a pro take the first two shots on a hole (or one shot on a par 3) and take my chances getting in from there, than to have the pro clean up my mess off the tee.
post #201 of 511
It's logical to me that the long game is more important. Every time I've shot a decent score I've always had a good ball striking round, kept the ball in play, hit GIR's more regularly and minimized penalty strokes. When I score poorly, inevitably I don't do those things and put the ball in bad spots, hazards, etc off the tee or with longer shots. My short game isn't great but there isn't a ton of variation like there is in my long game, which always has more impact, good or bad, on my scoring. In any event, the stats Iacas posted on Rory and Tiger seem to prove this is the case.
post #202 of 511

OK - I hope you guys are happy !       I just got back from the worst round of the year & what killed me was the APPROACH SHOTS (driver was awesome today - hit all but 1 fairway) !!   Played in more sand than if I went to the beach.     LOL - this thread got in my head.    OR ... maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was at this part of the game.     Either way, after all the lower hcp's than me posting that the 2nd shot is the most important area of the game, I would be doing myself a disservice to not pay attention.     Thanks to everybody for making the point (repeatedly) - GIR's is an area I will be practicing and focusing ALOT on next year.     My putting is what it is ... and I can accept that.    I think the approach game is an area where I can really make some progress if I can tighten it up...

 

In hindsight, this may be one of the most important golf threads I've ever read - it totally changed my mindset about where I should be focusing (I used to think the short game was absolutely killing me - it is to a degree, but after considering the importance behind hitting greens, I'm sold).    I never thought I was all that bad at approach shots, but after a really poor ballstriking day like today, it's clear that GIR's need to be my focus going forward.


Edited by inthehole - 11/2/13 at 10:40pm
post #203 of 511
Unfortunately it haunted me as well. I missed the green on a par 3 and made double. I hit one into a pond from 185 out on a long par 4 and it led to triple. I predicted i would shoot 79 in the tomorrow thread. Despite a solid +2 37 on the back the best i could do was 81. Two long game mistakes kept me from breaking 80.
post #204 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post

Here's how it boils down for me...

I would much rather have a pro take the first two shots on a hole (or one shot on a par 3) and take my chances getting in from there, than to have the pro clean up my mess off the tee.

QFT
post #205 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post

Unfortunately it haunted me as well. I missed the green on a par 3 and made double. I hit one into a pond from 185 out on a long par 4 and it led to triple. I predicted i would shoot 79 in the tomorrow thread. Despite a solid +2 37 on the back the best i could do was 81. Two long game mistakes kept me from breaking 80.

 

It doesn't matter how much you work on it though - you are still going to make long game mistakes.  The real question to ask is "What was the actual mistake?"  Was it a misshit, or was it a mental error?  Could the issue have been avoided, or at least minimized, by setting up to work away from the trouble, or did you do so and just miss the shot anyway?  

 

Even if it was clearly just a bad swing, that's going to happen at times no matter how much you work to change it.  It happens to virtually every player on Tour, nearly every week - sometimes more than once per round - and they are probably better that you and me.  It's not for lack of practice or lack of coaching, it's just a hard damn game.

post #206 of 511

Fourputt has nailed this dead on !!!!!!!!!!!  " It's not for lack of practice or lack of coaching, it's just a hard damn game."

 

The game is very fundamentally demanding, along with the many elements, weather, course design and the "rub of the green"

Also, add in a players concentration and thoughts to the list.

Many have always heard " the hardest part of the game is the 6' between the ears"

 

We all have had days when nothing works or seems to go your way, and then others when nothing goes wrong.

 

This is also why we always look forward to the next time we play !

 

 

Club Rat

post #207 of 511

Fourputt has repeatedly said he doesn't spend much time if any practicing. Yes bad shots happen here and there to everyone. But nobody will deny the better you get and the more time you spend working on your game it happens with less frequency. I've played down from a 26 to a low of 8.8 in less than 18 months and practice played a huge part. I assure you minimizing mistakes makes a difference in how we score. The triple I made yesterday didn't come without some good play. I was fortunate to make an honest 7.

 

 But that wasn't what I referred to in my post about the lost strokes. The mishits weren't even that far off line. I only missed my intended target by 15 yards. It was the penalty of the missed shots that got me. The tough lie that caused additional bad shots that were my only choice and the resulting long downhill putts. The consequences tend to be greater from longer distances. If I had simply chunked a chip I may have only lost one shot but the snowball effect killed me. I understand I will make mistakes but long game mistakes tend to be more severe. I made 11 pars yesterday but lost 5 strokes on two holes. My bad tee shot started a succession of bad shots that resulted in a double on the 17 handicap hole.  There's more to it that writing it off as golf is hard.

post #208 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

Fourputt has repeatedly said he doesn't spend much time if any practicing. Yes bad shots happen here and there to everyone. But nobody will deny the better you get and the more time you spend working on your game it happens with less frequency. I've played down from a 26 to a low of 8.8 in less than 18 months and practice played a huge part. I assure you minimizing mistakes makes a difference in how we score. The triple I made yesterday didn't come without some good play. I was fortunate to make an honest 7.

 

 But that wasn't what I referred to in my post about the lost strokes. The mishits weren't even that far off line. I only missed my intended target by 15 yards. It was the penalty of the missed shots that got me. The tough lie that caused additional bad shots that were my only choice and the resulting long downhill putts. The consequences tend to be greater from longer distances. If I had simply chunked a chip I may have only lost one shot but the snowball effect killed me. I understand I will make mistakes but long game mistakes tend to be more severe. I made 11 pars yesterday but lost 5 strokes on two holes. My bad tee shot started a succession of bad shots that resulted in a double on the 17 handicap hole.  There's more to it that writing it off as golf is hard.

 

You just supported my statement.  You made one bad shot which started a cascade of bad shots.  Why didn't the bad shots end after the tee shot?  Were you trying to make an unrealistic recovery?  Were you thrown off mentally by the bad tee shot, leading to another poor swing?  (I'm not judging, just asking if you really know why the cascade effect happened)  The point I was making above is that you are going to make bad golf shots no matter how much you practice.  That is an ironclad guarantee.  It's how you react in the aftermath of those missteps that really determines your final score.  Sure you can minimize the number of bad shots with practice, but you can never eliminate them.  

 

My feeling is that most of the time (in my experience), I have a better chance at recovering from a weak tee shot than I do from a weak chip.  The reason being that I still have more shots left to absorb the mistake.  If I let that first shot dictate a questionable second, then I'm adding to the problem, not attempting to repair it.  For that reason, I'm going to prepare myself to have the best possible chance to make a decent hole score in spite of the inevitable bad swings in the long game.  

 

I'm a realist as far as my golf game is concerned.  My long game is just so-so, and sometimes it's worse than that.  When I was playing regularly, it was always my short game which was my gold star.  Now that I'm not playing enough, even that has shown some erosion.  It is what it is, but I may try to pick up a couple of cheap wedges to practice with here in the yard and on the beach... lord know I have enough sand available to practice on. :doh:

post #209 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

My feeling is that most of the time (in my experience), I have a better chance at recovering from a weak tee shot than I do from a weak chip.  The reason being that I still have more shots left to absorb the mistake.  If I let that first shot dictate a questionable second, then I'm adding to the problem, not attempting to repair it.  For that reason, I'm going to prepare myself to have the best possible chance to make a decent hole score in spite of the inevitable bad swings in the long game.  

 

I'm a realist as far as my golf game is concerned.  My long game is just so-so, and sometimes it's worse than that.  When I was playing regularly, it was always my short game which was my gold star.  Now that I'm not playing enough, even that has shown some erosion.  It is what it is, but I may try to pick up a couple of cheap wedges to practice with here in the yard and on the beach... lord know I have enough sand available to practice on. :doh:

A couple of things here.  It kind of sounds like you are arguing against people who suggest that the short game is not important.  Remember, nobody is saying that ... simply that the short game is a bit LESS important than the long game.  And there are two parts to that.  The bigger part of it is simply that the short game is inherently easier than the long game, so there is no need to spend as much time practicing it.  I almost never practice putting.  It's not hard enough to warrant taking any of my valuable practice time away from everything else.  The proof of that is in the fact that it's a strong suit of my game.  In the time I've been keeping stats - 1 1/2 years, 61 rounds - I have averaged 1.8 putts per round, and 2.0 putts per GIR.  How much could my game improve if I spent more time practicing putting?  And before you answer, remember that any amount of time I'm practicing putting means less time spent practicing the long game.

 

The other part of it is how much less damage can be done in the short game than the long game.  I could not possibly disagree more with your bold sentence.  It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE to "recover" from a tee shot OB.  Those 2 shots are gone and you're still on the tee.  What is the worst possible thing that you can do with a bad chip or pitch?  Chunk it 10 feet and add one stroke to your total?  Skull it across the green and add one stroke to your total?

 

The damage that can be done with full shots is much much worse than the damage that can be done in the short game.  There is simply no reason at all to spend a majority of your time practicing the short game.  It makes absolutely no sense.

post #210 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post
 

OK - I hope you guys are happy !       I just got back from the worst round of the year & what killed me was the APPROACH SHOTS (driver was awesome today - hit all but 1 fairway) !!   Played in more sand than if I went to the beach.     LOL - this thread got in my head.    OR ... maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was at this part of the game.     Either way, after all the lower hcp's than me posting that the 2nd shot is the most important area of the game, I would be doing myself a disservice to not pay attention.     Thanks to everybody for making the point (repeatedly) - GIR's is an area I will be practicing and focusing ALOT on next year.     My putting is what it is ... and I can accept that.    I think the approach game is an area where I can really make some progress if I can tighten it up...

 

In hindsight, this may be one of the most important golf threads I've ever read - it totally changed my mindset about where I should be focusing (I used to think the short game was absolutely killing me - it is to a degree, but after considering the importance behind hitting greens, I'm sold).    I never thought I was all that bad at approach shots, but after a really poor ballstriking day like today, it's clear that GIR's need to be my focus going forward.

 

Thanks for posting this, sorry to hear about the bad round, good luck with the "long game" practice.  I'll recommend to you what I recommend to everyone, focus on your priority piece and make that better.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

It doesn't matter how much you work on it though - you are still going to make long game mistakes.  The real question to ask is "What was the actual mistake?"  Was it a misshit, or was it a mental error?  Could the issue have been avoided, or at least minimized, by setting up to work away from the trouble, or did you do so and just miss the shot anyway?  

 

Even if it was clearly just a bad swing, that's going to happen at times no matter how much you work to change it.  It happens to virtually every player on Tour, nearly every week - sometimes more than once per round - and they are probably better that you and me.  It's not for lack of practice or lack of coaching, it's just a hard damn game.

 

Yes golf is a game of misses.  Hogan had a famous quote where he said he only hit two or three good shots a round.  So his "misses" were still damn good.  As mechanics get better, strategy gets better, your misses go from worm burners or topped shots to just off the green or even on the green.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

Fourputt has repeatedly said he doesn't spend much time if any practicing. Yes bad shots happen here and there to everyone. But nobody will deny the better you get and the more time you spend working on your game it happens with less frequency. 

 

Similar to what I said above, as the long game improves, the misses happen less frequently and/or they become better misses.  

post #211 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

 

My feeling is that most of the time (in my experience), I have a better chance at recovering from a weak tee shot than I do from a weak chip.  The reason being that I still have more shots left to absorb the mistake.

With all the time you spend in the rules forum in topics about OB I have a difficult time believing you believe this. When was the last time a blown chip  cost you a stroke and a couple hundred yards distance?

post #212 of 511

I just had one of my worst putting days in a long time I missed 2 4 footers and had 4 3 putt geens but I shot my best round in a very long time ( 3 over 75) What I did different is I left my driver in the bag a lot. I ended up missing 1 fairway. For me its all about the long game .

post #213 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

My feeling is that most of the time (in my experience), I have a better chance at recovering from a weak tee shot than I do from a weak chip.

 

Sorry, but your feeling is wrong. :-) Others have started to explain why, but you're wrong. Your "feeling" is not based in reality. Yes, you have more "time" to make up for a bad stroke off the tee, but that requires each successive shot to be much better than your average.

 

To put it another way, I don't remember the last time a short game shot of mine went OB, ended up behind a tree, or ended up in a water hazard, etc.

post #214 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post

Here's how it boils down for me...

I would much rather have a pro take the first two shots on a hole (or one shot on a par 3) and take my chances getting in from there, than to have the pro clean up my mess off the tee.

Yep. It would be fun to have a contest where a pro could hit the long game shots for one player and a pro hit the short game shots for another equal handicap player.

 

Not a doubt in my mind who would win that match and the higher the handicaps the bigger the discrepancy.

post #215 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 

Yep. It would be fun to have a contest where a pro could hit the long game shots for one player and a pro hit the short game shots for another equal handicap player.

 

Not a doubt in my mind who would win that match and the higher the handicaps the bigger the discrepancy.

Seems like we could do that by pairing a pro with a high handicap player and they can just play a modified alternate shot format. Each player plays their own ball until you reach an arbitrary yardage (say 30 yards) that you designate as the "short game zone." Then switch balls. Record both scores.

post #216 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

 

My feeling is that most of the time (in my experience), I have a better chance at recovering from a weak tee shot than I do from a weak chip.  The reason being that I still have more shots left to absorb the mistake.

With all the time you spend in the rules forum in topics about OB I have a difficult time believing you believe this. When was the last time a blown chip  cost you a stroke and a couple hundred yards distance?

 

Why does everyone seem to think that the only bad tee shot is out of bounds?  Don't your courses have trees?  Hazards?  Bunkers? 

 

I agree that it's impossible to recover from an OB shot any time, not just off the tee.  I can't remember the last time I hit a tee shot out of bounds, because if I have a choice, I play to the other side of the hole.  If I have a choice between OB and lateral water hazard, I favor the hazard.  If I don't have a choice then I play the club or shot least likely to put me OB.  I avoid courses with OB encroaching close to the fairway everywhere (I.e. courses which thread through housing developments) because I simply don't like them.  I feel like golf is a game which is meant to be played, and when the course is set up so penal that you can't miss a shot without having to replay the shot, then I simply don't play there.  I play the game to have fun, and losing stroke and distance for every poor swing isn't fun.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

My feeling is that most of the time (in my experience), I have a better chance at recovering from a weak tee shot than I do from a weak chip.

 

Sorry, but your feeling is wrong. :-) Others have started to explain why, but you're wrong. Your "feeling" is not based in reality. Yes, you have more "time" to make up for a bad stroke off the tee, but that requires each successive shot to be much better than your average.

 

To put it another way, I don't remember the last time a short game shot of mine went OB, ended up behind a tree, or ended up in a water hazard, etc.

 

 

I think that I've made the point that this is what works for MY game.  You can preach all you want, but it's not going to change my mind.  

 

24 years ago my game went from bogey golf to a 10 handicap virtually overnight, and the difference was that the short game suddenly made sense to me.  My long game never changed, but suddenly I was able to turn what had been double and triple bogies into pars and bogies, solely due to a summers worth of dedication to my short game.  I improved from an 18 to a 16 in the revision before the club championship.  I took that 16 into the club championship and shot the first 2 rounds in the mid 80's, then played both rounds the second week end in the 70's, with a 73 in the third which was my first ever round under 84, and it is still my personal best. Absolutely nothing changed my my long game during that period, or really anytime since then.  I wavered around 10 -12 (with a brief dip to 9.6) for 20 years.  

 

Maybe I'm not typical, but to say it can't happen is simply not accepting all of the possibilities.

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