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Relative Importance of the Long Game, Short Game, etc. (Mark Broadie, Strokes Gained, etc.) - Page 25

post #433 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

 

I just went back to where I knew these articles can be found

 

http://thesandtrap.com/t/14930/is-the-long-game-more-important-than-short-game/144#post_914889

http://thesandtrap.com/t/14930/is-the-long-game-more-important-than-short-game/90#post_914540

http://thesandtrap.com/t/14930/is-the-long-game-more-important-than-short-game/72#post_914432

http://thesandtrap.com/t/14930/is-the-long-game-more-important-than-short-game/72#post_914442

 

 

Yes when you have your best rounds, all facets of the game will be solid.  Even if your short game wasn't so great that day, the score would have still been decent.  Much better than if you hit it all over the lot, had issues with contact but your short game was good.  


I read these posts, and I don't see any need to alter my view on the matter, and I'm not talking about Tiger Woods, but the people I play golf with. If you're a high handicapper, it's because you don't have control of your swing. Short game doesn't help you if when you finally get the ball on the green, your first putt is for bogey. Once you get good, and your swing is on the long tail of improvement, the short game is going to prevent your score from rising when you miss greens that you're now able to hit up to in the regulation number of strokes.

post #434 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post
 


I read these posts, and I don't see any need to alter my view on the matter, and I'm not talking about Tiger Woods, but the people I play golf with. If you're a high handicapper, it's because you don't have control of your swing. Short game doesn't help you if when you finally get the ball on the green, your first putt is for bogey. Once you get good, and your swing is on the long tail of improvement, the short game is going to prevent your score from rising when you miss greens that you're now able to hit up to in the regulation number of strokes.

 

Let's put it into perspective.

 

The reason you're a 10 hcp, and struggle to get into the low 80's, let alone break 80, has little to do with your short game.  You don't hit greens.  Probably less than 5 or 6 per round on average.  That's at least 66% of the time you're missing greens, so even as a decent player, your "long game" is kicking your butt.

 

Don't feel bad, I shot 76 today and only hit 9 greens today.  I got up and down 5 out of 9 times.....  My opportunity wasn't in my short game, it was in the freaking 9 greens that I missed.

post #435 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post
 

 

i think its because they over-rate their full swing capabilities.  i think they would rather tell other people that their full swing is prettier than Kate Upton's cleavage and that they are held back by sucky putting and chipping.  its better for their ego.  most people think they hit the ball better than they do.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Quite true.

 

And the higher the hcp, the better they think they strike the ball.

 

Talk to most low single digit players and they'll tell you how inconsistent they are.......ask the same question of a 12 hcp, and he'll tell you how solid he hits the ball.

post #436 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post
 

Once you get good, and your swing is on the long tail of improvement, the short game is going to prevent your score from rising when you miss greens that you're now able to hit up to in the regulation number of strokes.

 

And if you want to keep getting better your long game has to improve.  +2 handicaps are better ball strikers than 2 handicaps, their short games are probably also better but not to same extent.  

 

If you're good ball striker your scores won't rise that much if you miss a few up and downs.  If you hit it OB, in the water, in the woods, then you'll see that score escalate.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

 

 

Don't feel bad, I shot 76 today and only hit 9 greens today.  I got up and down 5 out of 9 times.....  My opportunity wasn't in my short game, it was in the freaking 9 greens that I missed.

 

A sign of a good long game is also where players miss the ball.  9 GIR with I'm assuming a lot of shots close to the green is a good long game.  Seems like you didn't have any penalties, OB, water, etc.

 

Yes if you wanted to consistently shoot lower, you would need to hit more greens and not having any "crazy" misses will keep you shooting in the 70's.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

 

And the higher the hcp, the better they think they strike the ball.

 

Talk to most low single digit players and they'll tell you how inconsistent they are.......ask the same question of a 12 hcp, and he'll tell you how solid he hits the ball.

 

 

Little off topic, and just my take but I think it's because mid to higher handicaps tend to play with golfers that are about the same skill level.  Low single digit players will tend to play in more competitions, play with other single digit or plus handicap golfers.  They'll get a front row seat to what really good ball striking is.

post #437 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

 

Little off topic, and just my take but I think it's because mid to higher handicaps tend to play with golfers that are about the same skill level.  Low single digit players will tend to play in more competitions, play with other single digit or plus handicap golfers.  They'll get a front row seat to what really good ball striking is.

 

Yup.  And that's what makes 'em realize that they're not really all that good at all!

post #438 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

Let's put it into perspective.

 

The reason you're a 10 hcp, and struggle to get into the low 80's, let alone break 80, has little to do with your short game.  You don't hit greens.  Probably less than 5 or 6 per round on average.  That's at least 66% of the time you're missing greens, so even as a decent player, your "long game" is kicking your butt.

 

Don't feel bad, I shot 76 today and only hit 9 greens today.  I got up and down 5 out of 9 times.....  My opportunity wasn't in my short game, it was in the freaking 9 greens that I missed.


Perhaps your long-distance assessment of my game is the problem. I don't struggle to get into the low 80s. That's where I play, and I break into the 70s two or three times per year. My point is, my swing is at a place where X hours on my short game will get my score down quicker than X hours on my swing, not that X hours on my swing would not help. In the long term, I agree that swing improvement is the way to become a better golfer.

 

A few years ago I played in a tournament with a guy who was half my age and outdrove me by 30-40 yards on every hole. Yet, we both shot 81. If he didn't hit the green, and even then leave the ball close, he couldn't make par. I, on the other hand, got pars from hitting greens and from getting up and down. If this guy had a short game that matched his swing, he would have shot two or three over.

 

Or say it this way. Three pros miss the green and they all walk away with par. Three mid-handicappers miss the green in the same places and maybe one comes away with par.

 

As for your round today, I don't know what kind of shots you had when you missed the green, but 5 for 9 is all right. There are days, though, when a pro hits only 9 greens, but he won't turn in a 76. His short game will save him, and that's why he works on his short game, because he knows his swing will never be perfect.

 

 

post #439 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post
 


Perhaps your long-distance assessment of my game is the problem. I don't struggle to get into the low 80s. That's where I play, and I break into the 70s two or three times per year. My point is, my swing is at a place where X hours on my short game will get my score down quicker than X hours on my swing, not that X hours on my swing would not help. In the long term, I agree that swing improvement is the way to become a better golfer.

 

A few years ago I played in a tournament with a guy who was half my age and outdrove me by 30-40 yards on every hole. Yet, we both shot 81. If he didn't hit the green, and even then leave the ball close, he couldn't make par. I, on the other hand, got pars from hitting greens and from getting up and down. If this guy had a short game that matched his swing, he would have shot two or three over.

 

Or say it this way. Three pros miss the green and they all walk away with par. Three mid-handicappers miss the green in the same places and maybe one comes away with par.

 

As for your round today, I don't know what kind of shots you had when you missed the green, but 5 for 9 is all right. There are days, though, when a pro hits only 9 greens, but he won't turn in a 76. His short game will save him, and that's why he works on his short game, because he knows his swing will never be perfect.

Yeah, this is where I think taking a look at the handicaps of the posters in this thread might be of some use.  Like @mvmac and @David in FL have both said ... the ones down in the mid to low single digits (and better) are the ones who, basically across the board, agree that the long game is what is most important.  Why do you think that is?  Hint:  It's not a coincendence. :beer:

post #440 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post


Perhaps your long-distance assessment of my game is the problem. I don't struggle to get into the low 80s. That's where I play, and I break into the 70s two or three times per year. My point is, my swing is at a place where X hours on my short game will get my score down quicker than X hours on my swing, not that X hours on my swing would not help. In the long term, I agree that swing improvement is the way to become a better golfer.

A few years ago I played in a tournament with a guy who was half my age and outdrove me by 30-40 yards on every hole. Yet, we both shot 81. If he didn't hit the green, and even then leave the ball close, he couldn't make par. I, on the other hand, got pars from hitting greens and from getting up and down. If this guy had a short game that matched his swing, he would have shot two or three over.

Or say it this way. Three pros miss the green and they all walk away with par. Three mid-handicappers miss the green in the same places and maybe one comes away with par.

As for your round today, I don't know what kind of shots you had when you missed the green, but 5 for 9 is all right. There are days, though, when a pro hits only 9 greens, but he won't turn in a 76. His short game will save him, and that's why he works on his short game, because he knows his swing will never be perfect.


Let me rephrase.....

....you struggle to break 80 because you don't hit greens in regulation........less than 6 per round on average.

Is that better? Because the point remains..... a1_smile.gif
post #441 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post
 

Perhaps your long-distance assessment of my game is the problem. I don't struggle to get into the low 80s. That's where I play, and I break into the 70s two or three times per year.

 

I imagine he said this because of your handicap. If what you say is true, either your handicap is wrong or you play a relatively easy course.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post
 

My point is, my swing is at a place where X hours on my short game will get my score down quicker than X hours on my swing, not that X hours on my swing would not help. In the long term, I agree that swing improvement is the way to become a better golfer.

 

Then you agree with this thread a LOT more than you realize.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post
 

A few years ago I played in a tournament with a guy who was half my age and outdrove me by 30-40 yards on every hole.

 

The "long game" does not mean distance. Distance helps, but there's a lot more to it than that.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post
 

Or say it this way. Three pros miss the green and they all walk away with par. Three mid-handicappers miss the green in the same places and maybe one comes away with par.

 

Statistically, only two of the three will get par, and their average score missing the green is +0.3 or so, while the average score if they hit the green is going to be under par.

post #442 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

Yup.  And that's what makes 'em realize that they're not really all that good at all!

 

Ouch - I resemble that remark :surrender:

post #443 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer View Post

 

 

As for your round today, I don't know what kind of shots you had when you missed the green, but 5 for 9 is all right. There are days, though, when a pro hits only 9 greens, but he won't turn in a 76. His short game will save him, and that's why he works on his short game, because he knows his swing will never be perfect.

 

Pros spend more time on their long game than their short game.  You can make money and keep your card with a mediocre short game and solid long game.

 

5 for 9 is pretty good, best scrambling percentage on tour (2013) is 66.19  

post #444 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post
 

 

i think its because they over-rate their full swing capabilities.  i think they would rather tell other people that their full swing is prettier than Kate Upton's cleavage and that they are held back by sucky putting and chipping.  its better for their ego.  most people think they hit the ball better than they do.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Quite true.

 

And the higher the hcp, the better they think they strike the ball.

 

Talk to most low single digit players and they'll tell you how inconsistent they are.......ask the same question of a 12 hcp, and he'll tell you how solid he hits the ball.

 

 

I am only just beginning to appreciate this, even though I have never been a 12 hcp,... yet...

post #445 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by GangGreen View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

Think about it in terms of opportunity......  As a 24 hcp, you struggle to break 100.  Even so, you probably don't have more than 38 or 40 putts in a round.  My average score is 20 strokes better than yours, but I still average 32 or 33 putts.  If you improve your chipping and putting dramatically, you're still not going to improve your score by that by more than maybe 6 stokes (putts) or so.  But, get rid of one bad drive or approach shot just every other hole, and you're looking at breaking into the 80's, with your current short game.

 

No one's saying to ignore the short game, but the biggest single opportunity for improvement lies in at least getting close to the green in regulation, and the only way to do that is to improve full swing ball-striking.

 



That's my game EXACTLY!!! Where I lose the most strokes is either off the tee with driver/3W in hand (OB, lost ball, or off the fairway with no clear shot to the green and having to punch it back into play) or miss hitting my mid/long irons to the green (10-20 yards past it, short of it, right of it, left of it, the longer the club, the wider the margin for error). Depending on the day, the penalties, extra-strokes to get the ball back into play on missed fairways, and extra strokes to get the ball on the green on missed approach EASILY adds 10-15 strokes.

I've been tracking my stats on golfshots over the last 10 rounds, fairways hit (31%), GIR (11%), Putting (2.1 per hole, 2.6 per GIR). For me, the long game is clearly where I'm going to have to improve to gain the most strokes.

 

I know I'm posting about a month later than you are but I feel very similarly. 

 

I haven't kept track of my FIR except for this past Saturday where I shot a better than I normally do and had 64.29 FIR.  For the season, I've averaged

 

6.45% GIR, or (roughly 1 per round)

38.19 putting strokes per round (2.12 per hole)

2.47 putts per GIR, 

3.45 penalty strokes per round.

 

I have plenty that's wrong with my game, including, but of course not limited to, bunker shots, putting, and pitching and chipping it close, but I feel that saving shots by chipping back onto the fairway after I find my ball in the trees and getting rid of my penalty strokes for balls that are OB would be most helpful.

 

Of course, only being able to drive the ball 200 yards is my biggest issue after getting rid of my power fade (slice).

post #446 of 511

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post
 

 

i think its because they over-rate their full swing capabilities.  i think they would rather tell other people that their full swing is prettier than Kate Upton's cleavage and that they are held back by sucky putting and chipping.  its better for their ego.  most people think they hit the ball better than they do.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Quite true.

 

And the higher the hcp, the better they think they strike the ball.

 

Talk to most low single digit players and they'll tell you how inconsistent they are.......ask the same question of a 12 hcp, and he'll tell you how solid he hits the ball.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

 

 

I am only just beginning to appreciate this, even though I have never been a 12 hcp,... yet...

 

 

not me, ill tell you i suck.  its funny sometimes how people i play with will be surprised when i say that, they think im good when in reality, i hit the ball all over the course, all over the clubface, etc...

a 12 hcp's game is shakier than muhammad ali on roller skates.

post #447 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post
 

 

 

not me, ill tell you i suck.  its funny sometimes how people i play with will be surprised when i say that, they think im good when in reality, i hit the ball all over the course, all over the clubface, etc...

a 12 hcp's game is shakier than muhammad ali on roller skates.

On my very best days I suck (especially the long game). On my very worst days I REALLY SUCK (especially the long game).

 

If I didn't suck I would shoot under the course rating, but I never have and likely never will.

 

There is a brick wall at the course rating with a huge sign that says "You are not allowed in here."


Edited by MS256 - 12/6/13 at 12:51pm
post #448 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post
 

 

i think its because they over-rate their full swing capabilities.  i think they would rather tell other people that their full swing is prettier than Kate Upton's cleavage and that they are held back by sucky putting and chipping.  its better for their ego.  most people think they hit the ball better than they do.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Quite true.

 

And the higher the hcp, the better they think they strike the ball.

 

Talk to most low single digit players and they'll tell you how inconsistent they are.......ask the same question of a 12 hcp, and he'll tell you how solid he hits the ball.

 

Depends on the person.

 

I have a really high handicap and I would never tell anyone I have a good swing.

 

I would love to have a round where I didn't chunk or top a ball.  I say I hit my 3 wood pretty well but that's only because I don't seem to chunk it as much as I will an iron shot.  Then again, I use my 3W less than I do my irons, too.  Haha.

 

For those of you lower handicappers, how often do you find yourself chunking shots off the fairway?  I'm hoping by practicing my long game that I'll stop doing that.

post #449 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFKFREAK View Post
 

 

Depends on the person.

 

I have a really high handicap and I would never tell anyone I have a good swing.

 

I would love to have a round where I didn't chunk or top a ball.  I say I hit my 3 wood pretty well but that's only because I don't seem to chunk it as much as I will an iron shot.  Then again, I use my 3W less than I do my irons, too.  Haha.

 

For those of you lower handicappers, how often do you find yourself chunking shots off the fairway?  I'm hoping by practicing my long game that I'll stop doing that.

Not everybody, obviously, but he's just saying that there are a lot of 10-20 handicappers out there that think they are good ballstrikers.  They think "oh, if I just work a little on my putting and chipping, I'll be scratch."  Basically, they're delusional.

 

And it's also not true of all lower handicappers, but a good majority of them know that they are not good ballstrikers.  They know their games better, and are more honest with themselves on what they can and can't do.

 

And to answer your question:  I'll guess that I probably hit about a half dozen or so really bad shots per round, either off the fairway or tee or pitch shots.  Whether it be fat, or thin (which is more my tendency) or a really nasty slice or hook.

post #450 of 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFKFREAK View Post
 

 

Depends on the person.

 

I have a really high handicap and I would never tell anyone I have a good swing.

 

I would love to have a round where I didn't chunk or top a ball.  I say I hit my 3 wood pretty well but that's only because I don't seem to chunk it as much as I will an iron shot.  Then again, I use my 3W less than I do my irons, too.  Haha.

 

For those of you lower handicappers, how often do you find yourself chunking shots off the fairway?  I'm hoping by practicing my long game that I'll stop doing that.


I don't consider myself a "lower handicap" (that's a scratch to about a 3 to me) but I really don't "chunk" shots very much at all or hit shots thin very much at all. Maybe a few times per year.

 

What I do plenty of is miss right or left (and usually left). Misses to the right are straight balls and misses to the left are normally draws or hooks.

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