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Basic Shot Shaping?


Eeryck
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Assuming you have a fairly simple and repeatable swing and can hit the ball fairly straight most of the time what modifications (wrist waggle, ball location, steeper plane, flater plane) do you need to make to hit some different shaped shots:

Draw
Fade
Low Shot
High Shot

A decent link to an online source (including past posts here) or a good book would be as good as an explaination here. I ask somewhat based on Ben Hogan's statement that you can shape these shots using the same fundamental swing he teaches.

Given my handicap putting and chipping is my current practice focus, this is for some further study when the son and wife are asleep and I can feed my addiction for information about golf.

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For a draw and fade I read somewhere when I first started to take your normal swing but with two alignments. First you set up your normal stance with the line you want the ball to start on, next you open or close the clubface so that the club is pointing where you want the ball to end (ie. line up just left of a tree you are moving the ball around and have the clubface aimed at the hole). I have always found this to work really well for me and I would say I am good at working the ball, yet I have learned to adjust a little bit in that I have given myself a little extra room to clear objects because an open face seems to cause the ball to come out just a touch to the right of the line you are lined up on, and vice versa for the draw. Therefore instead of aiming a few feet off the side of the tree I may aim 10 or 12 feet off the side.
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Pretty simple and you shouldn't close your club face, learn to do it the right way.

Assuming you understand golf plane lines:

http://progolferdigest.com/wp-conten...08/06/sc-1.jpg

Then basically it goes as follows:

Average/normal ball flight will have the shaft tracing in between those two lines.

What decides a fade, draw. or straight shot assuming that you have generally good form is how much your top wrist (left wrist if you are a right hander) rolls through impact.

If your swing forces the shaft to trace lower toward the yellow plane line in the picture then it will create a lower trajectory shot. These shots tend to want to draw because more pressure is put on your wrists due to the outward motion so it WANTS to roll.

If your swing forces the shaft down the red plane line then you will get more of a vertical swing down at the ball which will trap it more which will mean a higher trajectory shot. This type of shot puts a bit less outward pressure on the wrists which means it will promote a fade.


There ya go, rep me if you find this to be any help and feel free to ask anything else you are wondering.

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For a draw and fade I read somewhere when I first started to take your normal swing but with two alignments. First you set up your normal stance with the line you want the ball to start on, next you open or close the clubface so that the club is pointing where you want the ball to end (ie. line up just left of a tree you are moving the ball around and have the clubface aimed at the hole). I have always found this to work really well for me and I would say I am good at working the ball, yet I have learned to adjust a little bit in that I have given myself a little extra room to clear objects because an open face seems to cause the ball to come out just a touch to the right of the line you are lined up on, and vice versa for the draw. Therefore instead of aiming a few feet off the side of the tree I may aim 10 or 12 feet off the side.

I do virtually the same thing. The only thing I would add is that I make a tiny adjustment to ball position and stance. I stand a TINY bit open for a fade and a TINY bit closed for a draw. With this, I feel I can sort of cut-spin the ball for the fade and fully catch it for the draw. But, these are very small adjustments to my relatively solid and normal setup. I do find that I am likely to flub the shot if I try and modify my swing motion. It's been effective for me to make tiny setup adjustments and then swing normally for the most part and just 'think' fade or draw. Speaking to what you're practicing on, the majority of my practice is with my sand wedge. There's no reason why you shouldn't start playing around with open and closed stances when your practicing your pitches with a sand wedge. You'll probably learn a lot more about what your normal setup and swing should be. I find more advanced players use more slightly open stances - or rather, they align their stance square with the backside of there heels rather than their toes. If you're left foot is flared toward the target, aligning your toes square actually puts you a bit closed which promotes all sorts of bad habbits.
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I don't try and work the ball that much. I find my best scores are when I use better coarse management and just try and hit fairways and greens.
I do sometimes try and play a higher shot to cary danger. I tee the ball a little lower and try and swing verticly. A solid release and lower impact on the face gives more backspin and gets the ball nice and high. For lower I just play it back in my stance a hair and think about just getting threw the ball. (ussually ends up being a slight drawing flight)
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I love this thread topic. I always learn something useful from these discussions.....just another example of why this is an awesome forum.

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I don't see a problem with closing the face to hit a draw. I have been doing it for years with good results. I just set the face closed or open towards my final target BEFORE I set my hands, then ignore the clubface and take my normal grip. If I really need to hook one, like a nasty hook around a tree with a short club, I will close the clubface off and take a flatter swing. One where I almost feel like I am pull hooking a baseball out into left field. I swing more around my body and keep the club flat, almost below my shoulders at the top of my swing.
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I don't see a problem with closing the face to hit a draw. I have been doing it for years with good results. I just set the face closed or open towards my final target BEFORE I set my hands, then ignore the clubface and take my normal grip. If I really need to hook one, like a nasty hook around a tree with a short club, I will close the clubface off and take a flatter swing. One where I almost feel like I am pull hooking a baseball out into left field. I swing more around my body and keep the club flat, almost below my shoulders at the top of my swing.

I don't suppose there's a problem with it, but it never hurts to learn how it works and attempt to shoot it on your own rather than close the face a hair.

Then again, if you close the face a bit to hit a big draw and then wind up over rotating or taking a slightly more inside out swing you could have some seriously disasterous results. Where as if you attempt to manipulate it in your swing and wind up hitting it dead straight instead of a draw or fade you will still have progress.

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I understand what you are saying, I just think you are more likely to make a big mistake (especially if you are a higher handicap) by trying to manipulate your swing rather than adjusting your face angle and taking your normal swing. It seems more likely if you flatten out your swing or really try to swing over the top that you would be more likely to mishit the ball or top one 20 yards. And in most cases I would much rather overcook a draw by 15 feet than top it or hit a hosel rocket. Also, the more you practice it and get comfortable with it the more you know how much to adjust. I think changing your swing a little is the way to go in the long run perhaps, however for people who want to be able to do it to some degree quickly and until they figure out how to gauge the movement from manipulating their swing I think changing the face direction is the way to go, JMO.
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I understand what you are saying, I just think you are more likely to make a big mistake (especially if you are a higher handicap) by trying to manipulate your swing rather than adjusting your face angle and taking your normal swing. It seems more likely if you flatten out your swing or really try to swing over the top that you would be more likely to mishit the ball or top one 20 yards. And in most cases I would much rather overcook a draw by 15 feet than top it or hit a hosel rocket. Also, the more you practice it and get comfortable with it the more you know how much to adjust. I think changing your swing a little is the way to go in the long run perhaps, however for people who want to be able to do it to some degree quickly and until they figure out how to gauge the movement from manipulating their swing I think changing the face direction is the way to go, JMO.

You say tomato, I say tomahto I suppose.

It also just depends on how good you want to be at this. I'm the obsessive type that wants to know how to do everything and do it right. I would never buy a draw biased club. I would never use offset stuff. But that's me, some people just want to be able to pull it off without having to work a lot at it. I guess it just depends on whether he wants to know how to do it vs. a way you can do it.

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My way is pretty simple..

if i wanna draw the ball more than usual, (more than 5 yards) i try and fire my right shoulder through a bit more, no stance or face change, if i wanna fade, i open the stance, and the face, or just slow down my fire through in my shoulder, keeps my swing the same, just slower/ faster.

I also imagine dragging the clubface across the ball in the direction i want it to curve, that puts a good thought in my mind before i hit it.

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Pretty simple and you shouldn't close your club face, learn to do it the right way.

If I want to ensure a draw or fade flight I will weaken or stregthen my grip but keep my club head square. In essence, I am manipulating the clubhead... so how is that not doing it the right way?

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I appreciate the feedback here and I have dug a bit more on my own to some of the old magazines I have saved the tip sections from. I have found some that recommend each way:

Setting grip facing the target with stance facing the line of initial flight

also

Have read about holding off the release which I take it is manipulating the wrist in the swing to close the club face more.

So for low or high shots would you manipulate the swing plane that Ben Hogan describes with the glass plate going from your shoulders to the ball? If you want a higher ball flight would you set up to make that glass plane more vertical? (steeper swing?)

If you want a low shot would you keep your chest down to decrease the angle or make it more horizontal? (flatter swing?)

I think I will have to try some of this out on the range and work it up myself a bit I am just trying to not give myself any bad habits since I don't have any really good regular partners. I guess next year or over the winter I will have to take some pro lessons.

In my Grom bag:

Driver........... Burner 9.5* S-Flex
3-Wood......... Burner 15* S-Flex
5-Wood......... Ovation 18* S-FlexIrons............. Pro Combos 3,5-PW Rifle 6.0Wedges......... CG12 52.10, 56.14, 60.10Putter............ 33" VP1 Milled PutterBall................ e6+ or B330-SRangefinder.....

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I appreciate the feedback here and I have dug a bit more on my own to some of the old magazines I have saved the tip sections from. I have found some that recommend each way:

Man!!!! You are getting way too technical here for someone who is just learning the game. At the moment, I think you should be trying to hook or cut balls when you are in the trees and need to shape the ball to advance down the fairway. By using the technique you mentioned of aiming the feet where you want the ball to start and the clubface where you want it to finish on those extreme shots, you'll be able to learn how it feels and do the same thing in more subtle ways later on. Go to the range and deliberately try to hit massive hooks and cuts and then taper it off from there. The mechanics are quite simple, but on the fairway, you should be thinking about square contact.

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I can hit the ball pretty straight. Now, when I need to make a draw, I aim my face to the target and close my stance, the oposite for a fade, face to the target and open stance.

When I want a low punch shot, I make a slighly shorter swing, and abreviate my follow-through. Sometimes I even keep it rib high.

For an higher shot, I play 1 ball up in my stance and try to sweep the ball off the ground taking very little, if any, grass

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Pretty simple and you shouldn't close your club face, learn to do it the right way.

Uhm, that's how the pros do it.

What decides a fade, draw. or straight shot assuming that you have generally good form is how much your top wrist (left wrist if you are a right hander) rolls through impact.

Yeah, that's not the "right way" to do it, not for most pros, anyway. They don't try to rely on that much different timing.

Clubface at target: stance opened or closed relative to the shot shape you want.

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When I was tweaking/refining my full swings, my pro would stand behind me and call out straight, draw, fade at the top of my backswing and I'd have to hit that shot changing nothing but the amount of wrist action/pronate. I asked him if that's how it's suppossed to be done and he said: No.

He explained that he was doing the drill so I'd learn why my ball flight was left or right. Once I understood what my swing was doing, and the action on the ball it incurred I had a much better understanding of the full swing. If you're slicing the ball then you know you're late/holding off your wrists etc.

It's much easier to have a consistant swing and alter your alignment and club face to hit draws/fades than get your timing down for each club and ball position. On punch shots around trees or even the "hooking" bump and run I use the pronate method and the drill has helped me when I need to add a little shape when needed, but for standard full swings I use the alignment method. My natural shot now is a nice draw with all my irons/hybrids using a slightly closed stance and clubface aimed at target. One thing to note, swing along the alignment (your feet) and not along the target line, the more closed the clubface and inside/out swing, the more the shape.

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Pretty simple and you shouldn't close your club face, learn to do it the right way.

That works, but manipulating the club at impact takes alot of precision.

The way i do it, is pretty simple, and a mix of both hands ( very little) and alignment. For a cut, the normal open the stance, but i dont change the club alignment, I just hold the release off a very little amount of time. for a draw, I aim slightly right of the target, the club aimed at the target, or slightly right of it, and make a normal release.
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