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"Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante - Page 4

post #55 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Originally Posted by SSmith981 View Post
Ok so I don't get it. What exactly are these "four magic moves" designed to fix? A lot of what he talks about, ball adress, grip, weight shift, aren't revelutionary concepts and are pretty standard fare for how to hit a successfull golf shot. The only major concept that seems off base is the "reverse wrist break" of the right hand. To me the only thing this would accomplish is to totally avoid any possibility of rolling the wrists and it would almost force you to come at the ball from the inside and get into that mythical "slot" position. Is this the major focus of the "four magic moves" to give you that slot feel and lag position through moves that are more restrictive and more unnatural and therefore more repetitive?

So I rambled a bit there, here's my question in list format:

1) What do these moves propose to fix? What problems would be alleviated?
2) How do the moves or ideas fix the above problems?
3) Why is it not better to stay with a more conventional swing?
4) Who, on the PGA tour now, uses this swing? If no one uses it, why is it not used in the PGA tour today?
His magic move of the early wrist break prevents you from opening the face during the backswing. Holding that break will keep your club face square to the target line. His downswing magic move is the lateral hip slide. This does drop you into the slot and allows you to hit from the inside.

Your question 4 is interesting to me. I have been using the early wrist break and I have found that it is a move that gets you into the correct position at the top of the swing. That position is with a straight left wrist on top of the club and the right wrist broken backwards under the club. The rest of the swing is the same. If you look at any pro, they have this wrist postion at the top of the swing, they may have gotten there without breaking their wrists as the first move though.

For the longest time when I had a major slice problem, my right wrist was breaking the wrong way. Hold your right hand infront of you with palm facing left. break your wrist so that your thumb moves toward you and your hand is vertical. This is how my wrist would break in the backswing and this makes your left wrist break backwards and opens up the clubface. For me, the early wrist break is just a move to fix that and get to a strong left wrist at the top.

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post #56 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Originally Posted by SSmith981 View Post
Ok so I don't get it. What exactly are these "four magic moves" designed to fix? A lot of what he talks about, ball adress, grip, weight shift, aren't revelutionary concepts and are pretty standard fare for how to hit a successfull golf shot. The only major concept that seems off base is the "reverse wrist break" of the right hand. To me the only thing this would accomplish is to totally avoid any possibility of rolling the wrists and it would almost force you to come at the ball from the inside and get into that mythical "slot" position. Is this the major focus of the "four magic moves" to give you that slot feel and lag position through moves that are more restrictive and more unnatural and therefore more repetitive?

So I rambled a bit there, here's my question in list format:

1) What do these moves propose to fix? What problems would be alleviated?
2) How do the moves or ideas fix the above problems?
3) Why is it not better to stay with a more conventional swing?
4) Who, on the PGA tour now, uses this swing? If no one uses it, why is it not used in the PGA tour today?
What I have found with the early backward wrist break is it puts your golf swing on plane very early in the backswing. Conventional golf wisdom has you break the wrists late in the backswing, forcing you to re-route the club during the downswing to get on plane.

One thing I immediately noticed as I learned the early backward wrist break was the club felt "lighter" as I swung - an indication my golf swing is more on plane and not fighting the laws of physics.

Nick Faldo claims this one magic move helped him win his 6 majors.

Play well.

--John
post #57 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

I'm still working with this, but mixed results. Played 9 today, and some shots were very crisp. But my distance is lacking. Also, I hit some of the worst fat shots ever. Severe chunking off the tee in at least 2 instances. I don't feel like I am releasing too early, and I don't play the ball forward in my stance. Why would I be hitting fat with this method?
post #58 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

I tried the early wrist break a while ago with mixed results. However, I just recently tried using the early wrist break as a means of setting my grip. Prior to addressing the ball I place the club parallel to the ground (as in the book's picture) with my wrists in the position shown. Then I "set" my grip tight and address the ball. My hands feel like they are one piece and that they are extremely tight together. I am not squeezing the club. My grip, since it is set with the club parallel to the ground, feels like it is very taut. Because of this, my wrists feel like they want to return to the position in the book (the magic move) while at the address position. What this allows me to do is, when I execute my backswing, my hands/wrist immediately hinge without me thinking about it. This allows me to just concentrate on maintaining my head quiet behind the ball and watch the ball leave its spot.

The quality of my ball strikes have been amazing. This new addition to my swing has even has held up under the scrutiny of numerous people watching me at the driving range. You know how it goes when you claim, "I've got it!" and then someone watches you to see what you are doing right and you hit it fat. Several people at my driving range have asked me to show them this method, and I have hit it pure each time.

I know this sounds "too good to be true", but I have found my ball striking answer.
post #59 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Norm, with what you are saying, at address, is your shaft leaning way forward, sort of like a set forward press?

I still don't understand why I am hitting fat with this technique. Went out played 18 the other day, and irons were better, but still hitting behiind the ball with the woods. I wondering if I am not executing the 3rd move correctly, the bump of hips toward the target. I also feel I could be arm swinging too much.

In this technique you shouldn't feel you are arm swinging, correct?
post #60 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Originally Posted by akgolfnut View Post
Norm, with what you are saying, at address, is your shaft leaning way forward, sort of like a set forward press?

I still don't understand why I am hitting fat with this technique. Went out played 18 the other day, and irons were better, but still hitting behiind the ball with the woods. I wondering if I am not executing the 3rd move correctly, the bump of hips toward the target. I also feel I could be arm swinging too much.

In this technique you shouldn't feel you are arm swinging, correct?
That is the idea, but doing it, as Dante instructs, your whole shoulder girdle is really free moving so yours may be dropping too much and hence the fat, behind shots.

I have really given up on this method. I think the power is in the hands and the whipping of the club through for a solid release. Eliminating the hands, to me really takes out too much effortless power from the swing. I do not believe Dante really did what he "felt" he did, as is so often the case in golf instruction.
post #61 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Is the early wrist break equally effective for one and two plane swings ala Jim Hardy?

It would seem the lateral hip slide is strictly two-plane.
post #62 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Originally Posted by daveh View Post
Is the early wrist break equally effective for one and two plane swings ala Jim Hardy?

It would seem the lateral hip slide is strictly two-plane.
The Four Magic Moves method does incorporate the two-plane swing requiring you to start the downswing by pushing the hips forward while holding the shoulders, head and arms back at the transition. The theory is that if the hips are thrust forward they will have to rotate as they cannot do otherwise.

You can execute a one-plane swing where you keep more stacked throughout the swing and don't need to push the lower body forward during the downswing. You only need the weight to move slightly onto the lead leg by moving the lead knee over your lead foot, this does have the effect of the upper body moving slightly forward and down at transition but only by a small amount. The power is then turned on as the torso and shoulders rotate and unwind around a steady spine angle. The hips will naturally turn through in support without any conscious effort

A two-plane swing does require the golf club to be dropped down onto a lower plane in the downswing and to achieve this the lower body must push forward and rotate while the trail shoulder works down and under.

I like to use the Four Magic Moves early wrist break in conjunction with a more stacked rotary swing, this uses less moving parts and makes off plane type errors less likely as there is little to go wrong.

Hope this helps Dave.

Play well.

--John
post #63 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Originally Posted by lynchjo View Post
The Four Magic Moves method does incorporate the two-plane swing requiring you to start the downswing by pushing the hips forward while holding the shoulders, head and arms back at the transition. The theory is that if the hips are thrust forward they will have to rotate as they cannot do otherwise.

You can execute a one-plane swing where you keep more stacked throughout the swing and don't need to push the lower body forward during the downswing. You only need the weight to move slightly onto the lead leg by moving the lead knee over your lead foot, this does have the effect of the upper body moving slightly forward and down at transition but only by a small amount. The power is then turned on as the torso and shoulders rotate and unwind around a steady spine angle. The hips will naturally turn through in support without any conscious effort

A two-plane swing does require the golf club to be dropped down onto a lower plane in the downswing and to achieve this the lower body must push forward and rotate while the trail shoulder works down and under.

I like to use the Four Magic Moves early wrist break in conjunction with a more stacked rotary swing, this uses less moving parts and makes off plane type errors less likely as there is little to go wrong.

Hope this helps Dave.

Play well.

--John
Yes it does help, thanks.

Although I was initially trying to determine whether or not this applied to a more rotary swing, you also answered something else that's been bothering me lately that I've not been able to get from "The Plane Truth" -- the weight transfer.

I went from a two-plane to a rotary/one-plane specifically because I have a seemingly uncurable tendency to hang back. While the more rotary swing definitley helped, it didn't completely cure it. I've been looking at stack and tilt as a possible solution, or at least a learning aid.

But what you're saying about moving the knee makes a lot of sense, and seems to do the trick (at least in my living room). I'll give it a go at the course tomorrow.

I'll re-read "Four Magic Moves" and see if it makes more sense now.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up!
post #64 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Originally Posted by xiphos888 View Post
The book is pretty good. A newer book by VJ Trilio is out that discusses some of the same concepts.
I assume you're referring to "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle" by VJ Trolio? Have you (or anyone) read this book? I am really trying to pattern my swing after Joe Dante's Magic Moves, and I wish there was more instruction that was similar to Dante's techniques in other books. Does anyone know whether the concepts in Trolio's book are complementary and compatible?

Or does anyone know of other books that are complementary to what Dante's book discusses?

Thanks!
post #65 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

I ditched these conepts for a while, but am back at it again. One thing I was not doing before when I was having trouble with my woods (and longer irons), was releasing the club through the ball. I believe I took the advice in the book to retain that wrist break way too literal, and was not allowing things to release. The driver is still iffy, but I've been hitting great iron shots, even with my 4 iron. I haven't been slicing the ball nearly as much. When I do hit a bad shot, it's usually a hook or a pull (maybe trying to force everything too much), which is actually fine with me after slicing the ball for the past 25 years!

One thing I would recommend is buying the DVD that Andy Brown has out now. The DVD is short (maybe 30 mins or so) and to the point. For me it was nice to see the moves, and the swing in action - the drawings in the book are nice, but leave a bit to be desired IMO.

I still don't know if I'm 100% convinced that this is the best method out there. But, one aspect that IS nice, is that this gives you distinct checkpoints throughout the swing, and you should be able to diagnose what went wrong if things do go wrong. Before, I would just swing, and then wonder what in the hell happened. One of the key checks for me has been lining up my shoulders to the target properly. I was always standing way too open, with my left shoulder pointed WAY to the left - in essence, boning myself before I'd start the back swing.

When I do execute this swing properly, it feels like and inside out swing, and I don't feel I'm coming over the top at all. Some of my iron shots even have a draw on them...stop the presses.....!
post #66 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

I registered at this site just to comment on the Dante book. I gained two clubs distance as well as accuracy once I understood the immediate break on the backswing and learned to just 'leave it there' on the downswing and COAM. Handicap has always been around 6 or 7, but only because I had good hands, not much distance. Now, I am scoring with distance and course management (hit iron now on some tees and still come in with wedge or 9). Shot even par today; a few putts fall and I would be under par first time ever....

I haven't yet learned to hit the driver longer with this method; need more practice. Irons are good and getting better. Any driver tips from other Dante admirers out there? I still throw head at times.... Great site!!
post #67 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante



Here is a drill that will instantly tell you whether you need to learn the Four Magic Moves To Winning Golf.

If you swing the club too far to the inside during your backswing this drill will tell you. Most amatuers yank the club to the inside during the backswing putting the swing immediately off plane. The result is a golf swing that is too flat.

The Back To Wall Drill:
This drill will tell you if you have a overly flat swing. First and foremost, check your ball position and your distance to the ball at address, as this symptom is the most common cause of a shank. Remember guys; try to work on fixing your fundamentals first before using drills to fix your problems. I cannot stress this enough; most swing faults start with poor fundamentals.

Ok, now find a wall that you can set up too. Have your butt approximately six inches away from the wall (Don't do this drill using a nice wall or you may find yourself in the doghouse with your spouse). To take a full swing with the wall in the way your path will need to become more upright. Take slow swings to start, and work on getting to the top and back to the ball without hitting the wall. It should feel different, but all new movements do. Work on swinging slowly until you can make a full swing without making contact with the wall.

Master this drill until you can do it every time without hitting the wall...

The early backward wrist break teaches you something pros never do - How to break the wrists during the back swing!


Combine this drill with the four magic moves and you'll be surprised how solidly your ball striking becomes.

Play well.

John Lynch
post #68 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Just got the book from Amazon and have been reading the first 6 chapters. I already have Hogans book, but like the way Dante approaches things, especially with regard to what to stay away from, the wrist break and its importance. Also how you start the swing with the lateral left movement of the hip, I instinctively did this and my pro was always telling me to stop, I guess I will pick up this "bad" habit again
post #69 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

Hi
Thought I would add my 2 cents worth to the topic Have read book and think it is the best book I have read on golf and most helpful, if you think of the multi million dollar industry that has been spawned from Ben Hogans book everybody has there idea as to the secret but in any golf instruction book it should be perfectly clear what to do and how to do it, plus if you observe Hogans swing in slow mo his first move is not spinning the hips but bumping the front hip forward Ala Dante method.
Quite simply put Joe Dante's book has no secret ,to find out, just advice clearly written and explained so I think all will understand though being a Engineer I believe doe,s help me understand certain elements like COAM.
Having read the book and practiced technique for 2 weeks went out on a cold day in UK and wet [very] and shot a 71 par is 70 swing felt so solid average drive 260yds carry 80% fairways hit, 70% GIR so you can see that chipping also was good , showed only wrist break to my father in next round of golf and he gained 30 yds off tee and he is 78 yrs old plus I shot a 74 .
For myself personally I am not reading anymore golf mags or books as all you need is Joe Dante's book and to work on Flexibility this i believe is needed for Dante's technique as you coil correctly as apposed to collapsing the arms as most people do due to poor technique and flexibility.
Enjoying golf more than ever and hoping to get to scatch handicap soon
post #70 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

I don't necessarily agree with everything in the book but I still recommend it. You can learn some valuable lessons....the section on COAM is a MUST read.
post #71 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

I have found Dante's move on the early wrist break quite valuable as someone who habitually rolls the wrists back and takes the club back inside way too soon. Pushing down with the heel of the right hand at the start of the take away has definitely helped my swing plane.

Will admit to initially mixing up Joe Dante and Joe Dolce, who also had some valuable advice.

post #72 of 74

Re: "Four Magic Moves" by Joe Dante

great to hear positive feedback,on the four magic moves,hen I first tried it ,I had my best game ever,sadly,it has been down hill after about 6 such games,and cant quiet sort it.
Do you use all four of the moves in the system,I think my issues are in the shoulder turn on the back swing,and on the weight transfer on the down swing.sadly not sure who can help sort it.
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