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20+ handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant) - Page 28  

post #487 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by dirkduffer View Post
I think I read that the average drive on the PGA Tour is 281 and on the Nationwide is like 296. I asked someone about that once, why guys who hadn't made it to the big league were out driving the A players. His answer was very interesting.

First, "average" drive on tour is calculated by averaging two drives on two holes that are basically in opposite directions to cancel out any wind advantage/disadvantage. It doesn't tell you if they, for some reason, decided to lay off or hit a 3W or got no roll in the rough or how firm the fairways are on any particular day. There is a different number for "longest" and it's almost always from something like windy, high altitude, downhill.... and doesn't come close to representing the "average" drive.

Second, the Nationwide tour, he pointed out, is generally comprised of younger golfers. I thought perhaps the PGA tour guys were just more worried about accuracy than distance, but his point was interesting and might be valid. But in any event, the AVERAGE drive of the BEST players in the world is only over 280. The lowest on the list I think was around 260.

And I agree. If you're not measuring with GPS/laser, then you don't really count.
Not anymore- that was the old way of calculating avg drive on tour....now they avg quite a few more per round....you can find the documented on the tour site I think....
post #488 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
The simple fact though for good players is that a 7 iron is dramatically easier to hit and control than a driver just due to the fact that it is a much shorter club.
My point was that you cannot put everyone into your cookie cutter mentality where a 7-iron is easier to hit than a driver. My idea of hitting the 7 iron well is hitting it from 160 out onto the green 60-70% of the time. I am not there yet.


Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
I might question whether you could bounce the driver off the deck and hit an unassisted 280 yard drive but that's not the point.
280 is a rare occurrence with a bounced drive and is probably irrelevant. Point was, I bounce the driver and the ball goes straight. If I bounce the 7-iron, the ball goes 50-60 yards.

Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
There are a lot of guys like you that approach golf with a baseball mentality and that's fine but it doesn't really gel. The only sport that really gels with golf is hockey because a slap shot and a golf swing are pretty similar.
You are completely ignorant when it comes to this subject.

Here is a little snippet written by top 100 golf teacher Tom Patri

Here is a quote from him. Its an article titled How to turn your baseball swing into a golf swing: http://blogs.golf.com/top100/2008/10...-turn-you.html

If you're a baseball fan and still remember what it's like to swing the bat, you can actually improve your golf swing. It's a drill I do with my students all the time to teach them how to unwind their hips and increase their lag. The first thing I have a baseball-loving student do is swing his golf club like a baseball bat and take a video of him doing this.

This is why I didn't need to "learn" how to create golf lag -- because I already have it from my baseball swing. Get a clue buddy. You're talking out of your rear end.

Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
Coming from someone who attempts to bounce their driver off the ground before they hit the ball in order to hit a good shot I think this only makes my case a little stronger that it isn't best to learn fundamentals with a driver in your hand.
Re-read what I wrote. I never said I attempt to bounce the driver off the ground. I mentioned how its good when it happens because it always goes straight. 240-270 straight is pretty good. 280 has happened once or twice.


Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
I played baseball as a kid but beyond that no swinging sports.

Your point that I have never played another sports that requires swinging something is true but doesn't really apply. This is a golf forum, not a forum for former baseball players who play golf like they did baseball. Barry Bonds cannot swing the golf club like a baseball player with much success nor can you.
You're reading comprehension is pretty awful. I never said I swing the golf club exactly like a baseball bat. This would cause a massive slice. I said things are very similar and baseball skills crossover to golf. Top 100 teacher Tom Patri agrees. Maybe you know more than he does???

Its pretty obvious you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
post #489 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
There are a lot of guys like you that approach golf with a baseball mentality and that's fine but it doesn't really gel. The only sport that really gels with golf is hockey because a slap shot and a golf swing are pretty similar.



Go watch virtually every pro swing a club and you will see a flat left wrist throughout, a narrow angle between the left forearm and shaft coming down to the ball, and an uncocking and rolling left wrist at impact.
You mean like this? You just described Albert Pujols swing. Flat left wrist, and the uncocking and rolling of his left wrist at impact. This guy could probably hit a golf ball 350+.



Check out his lag and how quickly his bat rotates. Do you see how his bat is pointed at home plate for most of the swing and then all of a sudden rotates? This is how he stores his power and this is where power comes from whether you are playing golf, baseball or any other swing that requires rotation of a object that hits.

This must be why Top 100 teacher Tom Patri wrote an article about How to turn your baseball swing into a golf swing http://blogs.golf.com/top100/2008/10...-turn-you.html

You have no clue about the baseball swing. This swing has great fundamentals that will transfer to golf. Top 100 golf teachers teach it, you need to get a clue. You think you know more about the golf swing than you do.
post #490 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by puttrboy View Post
Not anymore- that was the old way of calculating avg drive on tour....now they avg quite a few more per round....you can find the documented on the tour site I think....
No. It's still done just two drives:

from PGATOUR.COM:
2009 PGA TOUR Driving Distance Y-T-D statistics through: Masters Tournament Apr 12, 2009 The average number of yards per measured drive. These drives are measured on two holes per round. Care is taken to select two holes which face in opposite directions to counteract the effect of wind. Drives are measured to the point at which they come to rest regardless of whether they are in the fairway or not.

You may be thinking of the driving accuracy stat which counts: The percentage of time a tee shot comes to rest in the fairway (regardless of club).

Here's the source: http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/
post #491 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

There are similarities between the golf swing and a baseball swing BUT - 1.) In a baseball swing = moving ball and a 90 degree acceptable ball flight. In golf swing = ball not moving but an extremely small, angular, acceptable ball flight. So a "baseball" swing can allow someone to hit a golf ball a long ways but without it being in play that just means a one stroke penalty and re-tee. As far as high hcp's hitting it 300 yds - maybe but without accuracy or being able to scamble they will stay hi hcps.
post #492 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

short game? but more likely...exaggerating a bit? Probably both? ;)
post #493 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by Cesar View Post
You ever been on a launch monitor?

Reason I ask is that you should be hitting the ball much farther than that with 116-120 MPH.

Something isn't adding up. You're either missing the sweet spot, spinning it too much, or not launching it at the optimal angle.
If you are hitting it pure yes, if not then no.

I have a lot of issues holding me back, namely unflexible hips.

Right now I'm struggling with poor balance in my swing due to the fact that I can't pivot far enough with my hips which leads to me rising as I hit the ball. This leads to hits low on the face or all over the face in general.

I either have to start hitting the ball or start a stretching regiment.
post #494 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

I hit my first 300 yard drive this weekend!!!

I carried it 240 yards downwind, it magically hit the cart path two or three times and gave me an extra 60 yards! It's a short par 4, so I had a half-swing sand wedge into the green for my second shot.

Yea, yea, yea, it was total BS and I usually don't even carry it as much as the 240 I had on this hole, but whatever, I did it! 300 yard drive! WHoo hoo! I suck! But I'm lucky as hell!!!

Don't worry, my playing partners all chastised me for how lucky I am.
post #495 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by jones View Post
My point was that you cannot put everyone into your cookie cutter mentality where a 7-iron is easier to hit than a driver. My idea of hitting the 7 iron well is hitting it from 160 out onto the green 60-70% of the time. I am not there yet.
Is it easier to shoot a layup or a 3 pointer? Is there someone out there who has a better average of making 3's over layups?

I don't think you get it.

280 is a rare occurrence with a bounced drive and is probably irrelevant. Point was, I bounce the driver and the ball goes straight. If I bounce the 7-iron, the ball goes 50-60 yards.
Someone who bounces the driver in order to hit it straight should not be arguing the finer points of the golf swing. Sorry.

If you're a baseball fan and still remember what it's like to swing the bat, you can actually improve your golf swing. It's a drill I do with my students all the time to teach them how to unwind their hips and increase their lag. The first thing I have a baseball-loving student do is swing his golf club like a baseball bat and take a video of him doing this.

This is why I didn't need to "learn" how to create golf lag -- because I already have it from my baseball swing. Get a clue buddy. You're talking out of your rear end.
Yup and until a couple of days ago I never thought it was possible.

However, I saw a couple of guys on the driving range nailing the ball a VERY long ways. They had no clue where it was going. They had no clue what lag was. They had no clue what anything regarding their swing was. They were just baseball players swinging a driver like a bat.


I guess at the end of the day its just a weird discussion to have.

I have to admit I was completely wrong in that it is possible for a 20+ handicapper to hit the ball 300+ IF you can find a baseball player that can swing that hard at a ball.

They will probably hit 1 out of 20 straight and 300+ yards but they can do it because I have witnessed it.


That said I am still correct because that same driver swing can also be used for every other club so the only reason they are 20 handicappers is because they choose to be because with my understanding of wrist action and plane lines if I could move like they could I would be scratch or better. So realistically the only reason they aren't very good golfers is because they do not apply the same principles for their driver to the rest of their clubs.
post #496 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
That said I am still correct because that same driver swing can also be used for every other club so the only reason they are 20 handicappers is because they choose to be because with my understanding of wrist action and plane lines if I could move like they could I would be scratch or better. So realistically the only reason they aren't very good golfers is because they do not apply the same principles for their driver to the rest of their clubs.
That is the most asinine comment in an asinine thread. If you think you can average 1/2 a stroke less per hole with more flexibility and strength either you only can hit the ball 180 and therefore have no business talking about wrist action and plane lines or you are full of it. I don't think hitting the ball 60 yards farther off the tee even if you kept the same accuracy would lower you handicap more than 3 or 4 strokes.
post #497 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by mad max View Post
That is the most asinine comment in an asinine thread. If you think you can average 1/2 a stroke less per hole with more flexibility and strength either you only can hit the ball 180 and therefore have no business talking about wrist action and plane lines or you are full of it. I don't think hitting the ball 60 yards farther off the tee even if you kept the same accuracy would lower you handicap more than 3 or 4 strokes.
The same swing that hits a driver hits a 3 iron, 7 iron, wedge, and every other club.

The baseball players swinging a driver like a baseball bat at the range were realistically only missing a little bit of understanding about how the golf swing works.

Many golfers never learn about lag they just swing. Of the ones that do 99% don't have the flexibility to develop as much power as they did.

Realistically there is no reason why either of them that I saw at the range couldn't spend a little time learning about plane lines and wrist movement and at the very least have been single digit or low double digit handicappers.
post #498 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

grantc79: How can you be right after you admitted you were wrong?

1) You saw people who are maybe 20 handicappers drilling the ball, which;
2) Caused you to admit it's possible. However;
3) You say that you are still right (whatever that means) because with your understand of the mechanics of a golf swing and of biomechanics and such they could be scratch golfers. Unfortunately;
4) That doesn't matter because by admitting you were wrong (as per #2) you conceded the argument. After all;
5) It's irrelevant what people could do under your tutelage. What matters is what they can do now. So;
6) You're still wrong as you have admitted that a fundamentally unsound swing can produce a 300 yard drive or something approximating it (as per #2, again).


Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
Realistically there is no reason why either of them that I saw at the range couldn't spend a little time learning about plane lines and wrist movement and at the very least have been single digit or low double digit handicappers.
Other than apathy, indifference, time, money... There are a lot of reasons why that is not realistic at all. Please, stop putting your foot in your mouth. Maybe it's a good stretch that helps loosen up those tight hips of yours. I don't know. But stop trying to defend an indefensible argument that you already conceded.
post #499 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by Spackler-esque View Post
grantc79: How can you be right after you admitted you were wrong?

1) You saw people who are maybe 20 handicappers drilling the ball, which;
2) Caused you to admit it's possible. However;
3) You say that you are still right (whatever that means) because with your understand of the mechanics of a golf swing and of biomechanics and such they could be scratch golfers. Unfortunately;
4) That doesn't matter because by admitting you were wrong (as per #2) you conceded the argument. After all;
5) It's irrelevant what people could do under your tutelage. What matters is what they can do now. So;
6) You're still wrong as you have admitted that a fundamentally unsound swing can produce a 300 yard drive or something approximating it (as per #2, again).

Other than apathy, indifference, time, money... There are a lot of reasons why that is not realistic at all. Please, stop putting your foot in your mouth. Maybe it's a good stretch that helps loosen up those tight hips of yours. I don't know. But stop trying to defend an indefensible argument that you already conceded.
Hey I readily admitted I was wrong about hitting it 300. I never thought it possible until I saw it and I admitted that I was wrong.

I believed that the golf swing had a certain set of fundamentals that I felt had to be learned from actual golf mechanics. I was wrong about that. After watching a college baseball player swing a driver I realize now that the power developing techniques of the two are similar.

So explain to me this........

If a person can develop these things with a driver, and every other club contains the same fundamentals as a driver, is it true that someone can't learn how to hit a 7 iron or wedge? Or is it true that they simply haven't taken the time to do so?
post #500 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
So explain to me this........

If a person can develop these things with a driver, and every other club contains the same fundamentals as a driver, is it true that someone can't learn how to hit a 7 iron or wedge? Or is it true that they simply haven't taken the time to do so?
As is, you mean? If someone with a terrible swing can crush a driver can they also crush any other club? Of course. However...

I'll use your numbers. You said that the guys were killing it and hitting it straight maybe 1 in 20 times. I'm sure they would have about the same success rate with any other club if they're lucky (not having an ideal lie all the time and all). There's your answer. They could, but the percentages are strongly stack against them.
post #501 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

The person your describing is me. AVG 300 yards? not yet. The Driver is the favorite club and the beginner golfer/ great baseball hitter has a fundamental lag and power they wont forget. I can hit a baseball 300 feet 9 times out of 10 and am more accurate than Ill ever be with a driver. Wedges and irons are a weakness due to playing the ball closer and having to be 10x more precise with contact than with a bat and a ball, a driver is 5x more precise(this is guesswork) I cant hit a 3i or a 3wood at all. I dont even practice them anymore. I can hit a 5i 220 yards but now realize ..why would I want to? Once the power hitter hones in their driver swing their HC will fall under 20 unless they are completely idiotic. The hardest point for baseball players is hitting from the fairway, the exact opposite of the true golfer. If i play from the rough I tend to make cleaner contact. The fairway causes skulls tops and sometimes the ball comes out hot. putting is a whole other story that has nada to do with baseball.
post #502 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post
The same swing that hits a driver hits a 3 iron, 7 iron, wedge, and every other club.

The baseball players swinging a driver like a baseball bat at the range were realistically only missing a little bit of understanding about how the golf swing works.
First off, for at least me, I do not use the same swing with the driver, 3 iron, 7 iron or wedge. The swing speed is different for each one. I don't hit the 3 iron well so I don't even have it in my bag so by your stupid logic, if I can hit my wedges then I should be able to hit my 3 iron. This isn't the case with me or golfers all around.

I am also calling BS on the fact that you actually saw a few baseball players mashing the ball at your local range for a few reasons:

1) It is currently college baseball season and you said you saw them swinging a couple of days ago as of Saturday. The game would have been during the week. During baseball season, games are played on basically a daily basis.

For example, LSU's baseball team played 5 games last week and played at home. These games started at 6:30pm or 7pm. Baseball players are required to get to the field about 2 and a half or 3 hours before the game starts because they need to stretch, have fielding practice, hitting practice, etc. They also have to eat and go to class and study. This leaves little time to mess around at the local golf course.

Even if they had the time...ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT POINTS Baseball hitters play golf during the off season, not during the season. During the baseball season, baseball hitters do not hit golf balls because the golf swing messes up the baseball swing. One session of swinging the golf club can mess up your baseball swing for 10 games or more and a baseball player will not take this chance. If you don't believe me, here is a quote from Ryan Church of the Nationals: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/dcspo...0_times_a.html

Between innings, Church discussed his golf game; he doesn't play at all during the season, because it messes with his baseball swing.

"Pitchers'll do it because they've got nothing else to do," he said. "It might help their swing." He didn't mention his arch rival, Coach Redding. He didn't have to.

Church said when he starts playing golf after the baseball season, his swing is initially broken, and he retreats into "grip and rip." I asked which direction this makes the ball go. "Left," he said, "and right."


You have been arguing in this thread for 6 months; then 2 days after I posted Albert Pujols baseball swing you then for the first time AFTER 6 MONTHS just happened to see some baseball players hitting the long ball at your local range and decided it is in fact possible for someone to hit it 300 yards and not be a very good golfer (20+ handicap).

You are a liar. They weren't at the range, they would not have been. They would have been anywhere but the golf range!

What really happened was you saw Pujols swing and top 100 golf teachers teaching to use the baseball swing and you realized you were totally wrong. You just aren't man enough to admit that from that picture, it is obvious that Pujols could hit it 300 yards if given 5-10 hours of training (he probably needs less) on how to hit the driver straight enough to go 300 yards. If he only learned how to hit the driver relatively straight (didn't learn putting, chipping, etc) he would be a 30+ handicapper that could hit 300+ yards.

grantc79, just admit you're a liar. You didn't see college baseball players at the range. I've shown that 20+ handicappers can hit it 300+ yards. Ryan Church of the Nationals says he uses the "grip and rip" method and the ball goes both left and right. If it goes left and right, then it also goes down the middle. He says he is a 15 handicap which isn't too far off from a 20 handicap. I would be willing to bet that putting and chipping is the reason he is a 15 instead of a 20 and before he was a 15, he still used the "grip and rip" to hit the driver. This would mean he would have been a 20+ handicapper with the ability to hit it 300+.

Point proven -- 20+ handicappers can hit it 300+ yards
post #503 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

The thing with grantc79 is this. I remember a post he made a few months ago where he said he started playing golf in May 2008. It's probably possible to become a 9 handicap in that time if you really play all the time and live in a warm weather climate and I'm definitely not saying he probably isn't an actual 9, but being that he's only like 11 months into the whole golf-thing, his opinions on the swing can be at times a bit muddled, I guess. Naive isn't the right word I'm looking for here. Anyway, that may explain to you guys a little bit of where he's coming from and why he made such a drastic change in his opinion on this matter in such a short time. Being that I started playing at the exact same time as him, I can tell you I've had experiences on these boards where I've said something that was totally wrong and then got quickly reprimanded for it by a regular poster.

A buddy of mine is this 6'5" Native American Sioux guy who if you saw him in a dark alley, you would turn around 180 degrees and start running for your life. He's a total beast. I met him at the range I go to and we've become range buddies, I guess. Anyway, he smashes those horrible range balls with at least a 270 yard carry. I've watched him do it a lot. It's really impressive actually. He's never had a lesson, he uses a driver that he bought at Sports Authority for $40, he's never played any other sport in his life (his words), and he's only played golf two years maybe. He FOR HIS LIFE can not hit a wedge. Or a short iron. Or really any iron for that matter. He is truly an awful golfer, and told me he's never come close to breaking 100. He's not even a 30 handicap. So it can be done. I'm not even sure his power comes from the fact that he's a total beast of a guy, he just naturally knows how to pound the ball off the tee.

And one other thing. The driver swing is a sweeping type swing where you want to hit the ball a little bit on the up-swing to get an optimal launch angle. The long iron swing is somewhat of a sweeping swing as well. Short iron and wedge swings are not sweeping swings. That's how you top the ball or worm burn in 100 yards. You hit down on those clubs. When you boil the equation down between a wedge swing and a driver swing, the general mechanics are the same- I guess- but obviously I would never tell someone who can pound his driver but can't hit his wedge to just imagine they're swing a driver when hitting their wedge.

Hope that clarifies some stuff! Grantc79, hopefully you don't feel slighted by me. I'm actually really impressed at how good of a player you've become in such a short time, and it gives me hope that becoming a better golfer is just around the corner for me!
post #504 of 1290

Re: 20 handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

And just a funny sidenote: I don't think my Native American buddy would have ever approached me to introduce himself if it wasn't for the fact I was wearing a T-shirt that day with a photo of Native Americans on it with the caption that said "Homeland Security Since 1492" on it.
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