iron swing vs wedge swing

**svchiefs19** · December 20, 2008

assume that you are are very good iron player and get good distance and hit it flush more times than not.

if you are trying to get backspin off your wedge hits, would you use the same swing that you do when you hit an iron? or do you change anything?

**meeks7** · December 20, 2008

in order to get spin you want to "pinch" the ball against the ground... tust hitting the ball first...the iron swing is usually a longer swing compared to the short compact wedge swing you want.... a good drill to do with a wedge is what i call a "swoosh swoosh drill" This drill is where you pick out a spot on the ground and hit it in the same spot of your practice swings.... this is a drill that helped me.... if you need clarifing on anything let me know

P_REEDY2009 · December 20, 2008

you just gotta make sure your hitting down on the ball, if u find yourself just scooping the ball off of the ground you are probably hitting up on the ball which doesnt create spin, So make sure your taking a good sized divot so you know your hitting down on the ball (hit ball first when u make this divot, dont wanna chunk the shot)

**Titleist Man** · December 20, 2008

Exactly what the above poster said.

**longfornothing** · December 22, 2008

Pinching the ball against the ground isn't really happening right? I don't see how that is possible from a physics standpoint. The first reaction upon impact from a hunk of metal angled at 50* slamming into a ball, is the ball going forward and up simultaneously, not down into the ground.

**picrig** · December 23, 2008

From a physics standpoint (that's what my degree is in), yeah, the clubface exerts a force in both the forward and upward direction. However, the ball compresses and spends a small amount of time "attached" to the clubface. During this time, your club is still moving down (and forward), so you can momentarily "pinch" the ball, although I would say that a literal "pinching" (where the ball actually compresses between the ground and club) probably doesn't really happen--I've never seen hi speed video to back this up one way or the other, though.

**longfornothing** · December 23, 2008

That is what I was thinking. It's a good thought process to imagine "pinching" it against the ground, but it isn't really happening. Spin comes from solid center strikes from a descending blow, the good spin that is. I've read recently an article by Tom Wishon (sp?) that said that a club with zero groves, a smooth face, can produce just as much spin when hit solidly. I'm no expert and don't know the reputation of Mr. Wishon, but he seems pretty credible to me. Plus, from a physics standpoint, it makes sense to me. Notice how much spin is imparted on the ball using your fairly smooth faced driver next time out. I've seen my balls, as well as many Tour Pro's balls on tv "back up" upon hitting the fairway. Of course that is a really high fade, not a draw.

**hamletsdead** · January 4, 2009

Yeah, it doesn't really compress between the ground and the club. If it did and was necessary to a good shot, no one would ever use a tee. And as you probably know, lots of pros say "Tee it up whenever you can," and virtually no pro hits his drives on par 3s off the deck. Just have to swing down so your divot hits in front of the ball.

**PiKapp23** · January 4, 2009

For me the swing for an iron and wedge are the same. The only real difference for a full swing is that I will be a little steeper with wedge, but that has as much to do with shorter shaft as anything else. On all full swing shots with 4H-LW I am trying to hit down into the back of the ball, taking a shallow divot after the spot the ball had been sitting. if I want backspin, the only change I make is to start with a little more forward press with wedge (but just slightly).

**denver_nuggs_15** · January 4, 2009

From a physics standpoint (that's what my degree is in), yeah, the clubface exerts a force in both the forward and upward direction. However, the ball compresses and spends a small amount of time "attached" to the clubface. During this time, your club is still moving down (and forward), so you can momentarily "pinch" the ball, although I would say that a literal "pinching" (where the ball actually compresses between the ground and club) probably doesn't really happen--I've never seen hi speed video to back this up one way or the other, though.

I remeber seeing a video and I think the "pinching" actually occurs for a very small amount of time.

As for the no groove comment that Tom Wishon had...I don't think that can possibly be true. There would be nothing to grip the ball with. That's what grooves are for (and wicking away water, grass, etc. like the tread of a tire.) Don't tour pros tee the ball like just above the ground on par 3s? They're certainly not teeing the ball up more than a 1/4 of an inch. I don't swing any differently. I may put the ball farther back in my stance about 1/2 of an inch. I don't swing as hard and try to keep my lower body a bit more "quiet" than on iron shots. We should hit down on the ball anyway.

**longfornothing** · January 5, 2009

It's true. Grooves don't impart spin. The degree of loft and solid contact (compression) have everything to do with spin. Lower loft=less spin, higher loft=more spin. Softer balls=more time on squashed on the face=more control and spin. The grooves just allow the water, dirt, and grass a place to go so they don't interfere with the contact, and therefore reduce spin.

Like I said before, how does your 10* smooth faced driver produce the 2200-3500 rpms of spin? You could put those crazy Spin Mill or Zip (marketing at it's finest) grooves on a driver and it wouldn't increase the spin rate at all. This in not opinion, it is science and physics.

Using your tire tread analogy. Why don't dragsters or Nascar race cars have tread/grooves in their tires???? You would think they want all the traction they can get right, doing 200 or 330 mph? B/c they don't need it b/c the track doesn't have dirt or water on it.

**denver_nuggs_15** · January 5, 2009

It's true. Grooves don't impart spin. The degree of loft and solid contact (compression) have everything to do with spin. Lower loft=less spin, higher loft=more spin. Softer balls=more time on squashed on the face=more control and spin. The grooves just allow the water, dirt, and grass a place to go so they don't interfere with the contact, and therefore reduce spin.

The tire tread thing is how grooves work with water and grass.

But spin happens because of the dimples on a golf ball. Regardless of loft, spin will occur. Grooves just add to it (i think so anyway). Why do Vokeys spin more than most other wedges. Given the same conditions and variables, all wedges should produce the same amount of spin. We know this not to be true from various tests and our own findings. Wedges made from the same metals hitting the same balls with the same SS (and all other variables held constant) with different grooves do not produce the same amount of spin. Fact or Fiction? I still don't change my swing though on wedge shots vs. iron shots. We're supposed to hit down on a golf ball with our irons anyway.

**KwSipp** · January 5, 2009

Imparting "more backspin than normally" is all about how pure you hit the golfball this is where practice makes ok and more practice makes better and hitting 2-3 garbage cans full of golfballs at the range with ONE club is where you get to be like lee travino

assume that you are are very good iron player and get good distance and hit it flush more times than not.

yes your swing is goin to be different not much from a tech standpoint but more on the feel side

**longfornothing** · January 5, 2009

It is the difference in the width, depth, and the way the grooves are cut that can be the difference in those test. Wider, deeper grooves can allow more water/grass/dirt to be displaced. Basically you can create more or less surface (contact) area. Just like the difference b/t a regular car tire tread (asphalt)and a John Deer Farm tractor tire(Soft dirt/mud). Just depends on much contact area you want/need for the given application. The gooves don't create the spin, it's already there, they just help maintain the amount of spin. Worn grooves don't allow the water/grass/dirt a place to hide, therefore the spin rate is lower with less control. Like a bald tire, the water/dirt isn't displaced as much as new, therefore no traction, no control.

**longfornothing** · January 5, 2009

Oh, the dimples only effect spin rates AFTER impact and the ball is in the air.

**KwSipp** · January 5, 2009

Oh, the dimples only effect spin rates AFTER impact and the ball is in the air.

Not trying to make an argument out of this but How is this proven that dimples effect

SPIN RATE when dimple design can only be studied to a certain extent from my understanding dimple design effect aerodynamics not spin rates but correct me if I am wrong here because this would be an interesting topic

**jcrob902** · January 5, 2009

Not trying to make an argument out of this but How is this proven that dimples effect

Dimples create drag which effects spin if you hit a ball with no dimples on it it will still spin because of the loft and the grooves do grab the ball which does effect the spin also but a ball with no dimples will just fly out maybe between 100-175 yds and then just pretty much drop out of the sky.There are no exacts on which dimple design is the most efficient but it deffinitley effect's spin and spin is what makes the ball rise and carry, of course you have ball speed launch angle and all of that, that depends on distance,but yes dimples ball cover material,loft, groove volume and club face material all effect spin rate, and also the most important thing is how well you strike the ball .

**longfornothing** · January 5, 2009

Not trying to make an argument out of this but How is this proven that dimples effect

No arguing from me, just a friendly discussion. I'm no dimple expert, but I would think that dimple patterns on a ball have zero effect at impact, therefore don't have any effect on creating spin. So then the only effect of the dimples would be once the ball is the air. The pattern/shape/size/depth of the dimples I'm sure has a role in how much the spin is reduced or how long/fast the ball continues to spin once it is upon against the drag or friction of the air. Otherwise, why do ball OEM's put them on the ball the way they do?

Again, aerodynamics of the golf ball is out of my league.

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