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What does the average weekend golfer shoot? - Page 14

post #235 of 301
I bested my previous score by 11 strokes handicap is down now to 21. If I shot similar scores from now on I should be around a 15 in the next few rounds.

A lot of this is down to club selection. Our courses in the UK mean you have to play from the yellow tees. That put my last round at 6186 yards and the par 4' average came out at 365.

You can in theory go with a 7 iron but I took into account the stroke index of the hole 1 being the hardest and so on.
I had a 25 handicap before the round so on the hardest hole I could shoot a 6.
So on the 390 yard par 4 second I go with a 5 iron landed in the fairway. Then hit the first of my 2 poorly struck irons with a 6.
It wormburned its way to within 100 yards. Wedged on with the PW.
2 putted for a 5!

Now some of the holes the shape of the hole didn't match up so much with the index.
On one par 4 the stroke index was 4 a hard par 4. When I looked at the hole there was a lot of room right where I would hit a miss a push or straight slice. 369 yards its hole 11 and in having the round of my life so pull driver.
Butter it 265 yards and leave my self a running pitch get Gir and two putt for par.

My point in telling you this story is that high handicaps need to be honest with themselves. In that round I didn't get any birdies but for the first time ever I didn't get any triples.

Because I played tight golf and stayed patient I managed 6 pars. I really only played risk golf on about 4 holes. It payed off because I got 3 pars out of that but the other holes were about reducing the course into easier chunks.
It puts more pressure on your short game but its better putting for a 35ft birdie than already lying 3 in the fairway with over 200 yards to go because you lost a ball off the tee.
post #236 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post
 

The highlighted portion of your statement above is simply wrong (well, to honest, most of what you are saying is wrong) and it puzzles me why someone who claims to have as much experience as you allege can be so oblivious to the realities of playing golf - in the real world, there are more factors that influence scoring than having precision in ball striking, as you assert.  Course management (i.e. hitting dumber, riskier shots instead of safe ones) can easily be responsible for a 10+-shot swing in score on a bad day for a higher handicap player and will account for at least several strokes even on a decent day.

 

KW, the problem with your argument is that it makes a number of inaccurate assumptions.  It assumes that higher handicappers have the same problems with all of their clubs and that those same problems would lead to the same bad results no matter what.  As Dave mentioned above, no one is slicing a 7-iron two fairways over, as they might do with a driver.  A typical higher handicapper might very easily, on a bad driving day, slice 5+ balls into the woods, in a lake, or OB using a driver but would make fewer bad shots with an iron and with those iron tee shots that are poorly struck, he would be able to find and play most if not all of them.  Five lost balls - that's a whole lot of strokes lost, far more than would be accounted for by having to hit three shots to get on a par-4 or four shots to get on to a par-5; higher handicap players are only hitting at most a few GIR a round, so they'd still likely be pitching or chipping their third or fourth shots anyway.  Plus, for every ball sliced 150 yards to the right that is playable and not lost, figure at least one extra shot to get it back in play; if the fairways are separated by a line of trees (very common on most of the courses that I've played), that could easily add up to several more shots dealing with shots into trees.  Think about the times you hit to lay up versus when you are going for the green on a long shot where you'll have to hit hard - which one do you hit more successfully? I bet I am at least 3x more likely to hit an easy swing shot 100-150 yards out onto the fairway in my target layup area than get within easy chipping distance when the green is over 200 yards away.  Playing mid-irons off the tee would be the same thing, a nice easy swing is a more accurate swing.  Have you ever seen a shot dispersion study?  The longer the club, the farther it will be hitting from center of the fairway on average.

 

You are also assuming that all par-4s are much longer than they tend to be playing from the white tees - I'd say the average par-4 is about 360yds, not 400 yards, and the average high handicapper is hitting a 400+ yard hole in regulation no more than once out of four or five tries at the most, anyway.  Two reasonable 7-irons in a row will put me about 300-320 out, with a 40-60 yard pitch, not a difficult shot (at least not difficult to hit a green - getting it within one-putt range is a different story with a less-than-full swing).

No offense, but if course management is accounting for 10 strokes in your game you are either completely wasted, high, or a moron. Course management might account for 1 stroke in an 18 hole round for me where I got a little too aggressive on a chip or a putt. 10 strokes? When I get in a bad position around the green its because I didnt hit my approach shot how I want (ball striking) which leads to bogey or double.

 

Also, you say your a 26 HCP, if so I am not buying that you can hit 2 reasonable 7 irons in a row consistently, also not buying you will consistently hit a 40-60 yard pitch on the green consistently. So lets assume you hit a good one off the tee and muff your 2nd in the fairway, then you hit your 3rd one well and are 30 yards from the green. You leave your 30 yard chip short or go long, chip on and 2-3 putt. You just got a 7 to an 8 on that hole.

 

No one who plays consistently hits 5 OB drives a round, thats like person who plays 5 times a year type of thing. So lets say you hit your drive 220 into the rough, you muff your second (or a short punch out from behind a tree) and hit a good 3rd to within short chipping range of the green. You chip on a 2-3 putt. You doubled to tripled. Do that several times and you saved several strokes over the conservative method. Sure you might hit some OB drives, but I bet you will muff some 7 iron tee shots 20 yards as well.

post #237 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by kw purp View Post
 

No offense, but if course management is accounting for 10 strokes in your game you are either completely wasted, high, or a moron. Course management might account for 1 stroke in an 18 hole round for me where I got a little too aggressive on a chip or a putt. 10 strokes? When I get in a bad position around the green its because I didnt hit my approach shot how I want (ball striking) which leads to bogey or double.

 

Also, you say your a 26 HCP, if so I am not buying that you can hit 2 reasonable 7 irons in a row consistently, also not buying you will consistently hit a 40-60 yard pitch on the green consistently. So lets assume you hit a good one off the tee and muff your 2nd in the fairway, then you hit your 3rd one well and are 30 yards from the green. You leave your 30 yard chip short or go long, chip on and 2-3 putt. You just got a 7 to an 8 on that hole.

 

No one who plays consistently hits 5 OB drives a round, thats like person who plays 5 times a year type of thing. So lets say you hit your drive 220 into the rough, you muff your second (or a short punch out from behind a tree) and hit a good 3rd to within short chipping range of the green. You chip on a 2-3 putt. You doubled to tripled. Do that several times and you saved several strokes over the conservative method. Sure you might hit some OB drives, but I bet you will muff some 7 iron tee shots 20 yards as well.

Also do not get me wrong. I am fully aware I am not any good either. I just have heard this excuse several times from people when it's just blatantly false. Sure course management is important, is that why your shooting 100? Hell no, it's because you don't make consistent contact with the ball. When I have a bad score on a hole its because I screwed up my drive or my second shot and got myself in a bad position. If I am 120 yards away and I pull a pitching wedge into the bunker on the left and short side myself that has nothing to do with course management. I aimed right, I knew what the correct play was, I just wasn't good enough to execute it at that time.

post #238 of 301

To each his own but I can honestly admit I dropped my HI from 16+ to a 12.3 in a roughly a month and half after I started playing smart. Not trying to carry long hazards, not attempting hit Bubba benders around trees that only put me in worse trouble etc. Basically playing to save bogey when I got in trouble instead of trying to pull off something Tiger converts half the time. I floated around 12 for several months until I further refined it by limiting the driver to just the longer par 4's and making every effort to play the par 3's and 5's even. I figure I can afford to waste a few strokes here and there on the par 4's but the 3's and 5's if played conservatively should be a no brainer. I haven't updated my forum HI but the 09/01 update has me at 9.8. Unfortunately I've trended back up to the tens but technically not official until the 9/15 update and my goal is to take it back down but it may be tough with aerated greens. Anyway I've only been at it since 04/2012. I golfed previously, a lot, but not for more than 12 something years before last April. I've worked hard but I attribute much of it to smart choices and playing to my strengths.

post #239 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by kw purp View Post

No offense,...no one who plays consistently hits 5 OB drives a round.
Try 11 OB on a 73.8/141 rated course as a 20 HC, although, on a normal municiple courses I have not lost any balls for three months.
post #240 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

To each his own but I can honestly admit I dropped my HI from 16+ to a 12.3 in a roughly a month and half after I started playing smart. Not trying to carry long hazards, not attempting hit Bubba benders around trees that only put me in worse trouble etc. Basically playing to save bogey when I got in trouble instead of trying to pull off something Tiger converts half the time. I floated around 12 for several months until I further refined it by limiting the driver to just the longer par 4's and making every effort to play the par 3's and 5's even. I figure I can afford to waste a few strokes here and there on the par 4's but the 3's and 5's if played conservatively should be a no brainer. I haven't updated my forum HI but the 09/01 has me at 9.8. Unfortunately I've trended back up to the tens but technically not official until the 9/15 update and my goal is to take it back down but it may be tough with aerated greens. Anyway I've only been at it since 04/2012, I golfed previously, a lot, but not for more than 12 something years before last April. I've worked hard but I attribute much of it to smart choices and playing to my strengths.

I get that, but if you have a 160 yard par 3 and you are just trying to par it as you said. How often is a 26 handicap going to hit a good enough shot to be in a good position to make par on that hole? Almost never. They are not good enough of a ball striker. They are more likely to hit it 20 yards than put it inside 40 feet. Theres no course management that is going to prevent that, you just can't hit the shot

post #241 of 301

I was having a bad round and decided to put my big sticks away and play "smart" course management type golf. I par'd 5 of the 7 remaining holes. 

post #242 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post


Try 11 OB on a 73.8/141 rated course as a 20 HC, although, on a normal municiple courses I have not lost any balls for three months.

Yeah, everyone has an extremely bad round here and there. You do not average anywhere near that. You might average 1-3.

post #243 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post


Try 11 OB on a 73.8/141 rated course as a 20 HC, although, on a normal municiple courses I have not lost any balls for three months.

How many of those were one after another? The most OB I've ever seen is my home course, nearly every hole has some because it shares land with gas wells that aren't owned by the city but much of it not in play.

post #244 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by kw purp View Post
 

I get that, but if you have a 160 yard par 3 and you are just trying to par it as you said. How often is a 26 handicap going to hit a good enough shot to be in a good position to make par on that hole? Almost never. They are not good enough of a ball striker. They are more likely to hit it 20 yards than put it inside 40 feet. Theres no course management that is going to prevent that, you just can't hit the shot

Point is I stopped playing like a 20 handicap when I started thinking like 12 handicap.

post #245 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by kw purp View Post
 

Also do not get me wrong. I am fully aware I am not any good either. I just have heard this excuse several times from people when it's just blatantly false. Sure course management is important, is that why your shooting 100? Hell no, it's because you don't make consistent contact with the ball. When I have a bad score on a hole its because I screwed up my drive or my second shot and got myself in a bad position. If I am 120 yards away and I pull a pitching wedge into the bunker on the left and short side myself that has nothing to do with course management. I aimed right, I knew what the correct play was, I just wasn't good enough to execute it at that time.

This may be true for you, but it's not true for everybody.  There are certainly people out there shooting 100 that have poor course management skills.  100% gaurantee.  Do all of them?  I doubt it.  Certainly you think you don't ... and I'll take your word for it.  But a lot do.  Likewise, there are golfers, myself included, who shoot in the 80's or even 70's with poor course management skills.  Now, these guys aren't losing 10 shots because of it, but certainly could be losing 1 or 2 or 3.  Simply put ... everybody is different.

 

I play golf with my a guy a lot that is a really crappy golfer in all aspects, including course management.  His handicap, is probably around 25 or 26.  If I were to put the clubs away for a few months and caddy for him, and make all of his decisions for him (and if he actually listened and did what I told him to) I would bet a good chunk of money I could get his handicap down 7 or 8 shots.

post #246 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

To each his own but I can honestly admit I dropped my HI from 16+ to a 12.3 in a roughly a month and half after I started playing smart. Not trying to carry long hazards, not attempting hit Bubba benders around trees that only put me in worse trouble etc. Basically playing to save bogey when I got in trouble instead of trying to pull off something Tiger converts half the time. I floated around 12 for several months until I further refined it by limiting the driver to just the longer par 4's and making every effort to play the par 3's and 5's even. I figure I can afford to waste a few strokes here and there on the par 4's but the 3's and 5's if played conservatively should be a no brainer. I haven't updated my forum HI but the 09/01 update has me at 9.8. Unfortunately I've trended back up to the tens but technically not official until the 9/15 update and my goal is to take it back down but it may be tough with aerated greens. Anyway I've only been at it since 04/2012. I golfed previously, a lot, but not for more than 12 something years before last April. I've worked hard but I attribute much of it to smart choices and playing to my strengths.

This is what kw purp isn't understanding as "course management" being able to help lower hc. There are plenty of times when we know the "right shot" but still go for the lower percentage one or hit driver when it's not necessary. These things can easily add 5+ strokes a round. Examples would be:

 

1. 310 yd par 4. Most people hit driver when it's not necessary and brings all sorts of trouble into play if they hook or slice it.

 

2. A bad tee shot leaves you behind some trees, instead of playing the smart play and just get out we'll try to go for as long a shot as possible typically hitting the trees and coming down underneath or shooting back at us or some other unfortunate location.

3. *Dave's example* trying to force a carry over water that is questionable distance at best. *this one is extra bad if you have to drop behind the water again and hit over*

 

 

Just those 3 examples, if they happen on the same round, can add several strokes and that's just 3 holes.

post #247 of 301

Weekend golfers, most of us agree, are high handicappers who shoot 100+ (with generous scoring method ;-)).   I don't think they do much of course management.  You need to have some consistency in your ball striking to do any effective course management. 

post #248 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

Weekend golfers, most of us agree, are high handicappers who shoot 100+ (with generous scoring method ;-)).   I don't think they do much of course management.  You need to have some consistency in your ball striking to do any effective course management. 

YES. That is my entire point

post #249 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by kw purp View Post
 

YES. That is my entire point

 

We get what your point is...now here's my point. It is not possible to hit a 7 iron as badly as you can hit a driver. A bad 7 iron might be chunked 50 yards, or get you in the rough (can go OB, but much much much less likely than a driver). A bad drive is OB. So choosing driver when you don't need to could be the difference between hitting 2 from 50 yards in front of the tee box, or hitting 3 from the tee box. There's 1.5 shots in one decision. Even for a bad golfer.

post #250 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop View Post
 

This is what kw purp isn't understanding as "course management" being able to help lower hc. There are plenty of times when we know the "right shot" but still go for the lower percentage one or hit driver when it's not necessary. These things can easily add 5+ strokes a round. Examples would be:

 

1. 310 yd par 4. Most people hit driver when it's not necessary and brings all sorts of trouble into play if they hook or slice it.

 

2. A bad tee shot leaves you behind some trees, instead of playing the smart play and just get out we'll try to go for as long a shot as possible typically hitting the trees and coming down underneath or shooting back at us or some other unfortunate location.

3. *Dave's example* trying to force a carry over water that is questionable distance at best. *this one is extra bad if you have to drop behind the water again and hit over*

 

 

Just those 3 examples, if they happen on the same round, can add several strokes and that's just 3 holes.

No one with half a brain will repeat these mistakes over and over. Sure you might try it once in awhile but if your consistently trying these shots your just an idiot

post #251 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

You need to have some consistency in your ball striking to do any effective course management.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kw purp View Post
 

YES. That is my entire point

Absolutely not!  I think you guys are only thinking of the "strategy" side of course management ... i.e. should I layup with an iron on this short par 4 instead of hit driver.  In that case, where a bad golfer is going to chunk a 4 iron as often as a driver, I agree with you guys.

 

But there is soooooooooooooooo much more to course management than that.  The one I see the most often is bad golfers trying to hit out of trees ... by trying to hit it through the trees.  WTF???  You don't have to be an expert ball striker to know that you need to aim away from the trees.

 

Or guys pulling the club that they need to reach the green from a fairway bunker and HOPING that it clears the lip.  When what they should be doing is pulling the club that they KNOW will clear the lip with room to spare, and then hoping it gets close to or on the green.

 

You also need to know that if you are a bad golfer, the chances that you will pull off that 20 yard slice around the trees is slim and none.  What is more likely is that you'll knock it into the other trees.

post #252 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by kw purp View Post
 

No one with half a brain will repeat these mistakes over and over. Sure you might try it once in awhile but if your consistently trying these shots your just an idiot

 

You must not golf with a lot of people.

 

I know plenty of people who make these mistakes over, and over, and over.

 

<Grammar Nazi>

 

BTW, it's *you're* just an idiot.

 

</Grammar Nazi>

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