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Spin Control


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Recently I have been taking some lessons and working quite a bit on my short game. Yesterday at the range I had a first, when I was hitting my 1/2 swing pitch shots to a flag on the driving range they started to back up 4-5 feet every time. This was not the result that I picked, I was just attempting to work on distance some to get it close to the pin.

So now that I am generating a fair bit of backspin, I was wondering what techniques are used to lessen it some. I would honestly prefer to have a short pitch shot that bounced once and stopped or just played dead when it hit. I rarely hit past the pin so the backspin may kill me for the short game especailly if I can't control it.

Now I expect that the conditions that I was hitting under had quite a bit of influence on the shot and further comments on this would help. So here are the conditions:

Srixion Yellow Range balls - Most have been covered in snow for a good portion of the winter
Hitting off a mat - There is about 3/8" of mat-grass with a fairly soft rubber pad under the mat
Ground had just thawed and was a bit damp around the pin I was hitting to
Grass near the pin seemed to be slightly longer than "fringe" grass around a green

Now I know that hitting of the mats is not the best but it is the only option right now. Still another month till I can get out to some real grass and hit to a real green. I guess I am looking for a deeper understanding for how each factor is affecting spin, so that I can better anticipate and control my result.

Ball - I am assuming that playing the urethane cover ball at a warmer temperature is going to generaly increase spin.

Grass (good lie) - In good lies I am assuming the spin should be similar to the mat

Grass (tight or grassy lie) - Generally less spin?

Green condition (damp) - Rate of Spin will generally cause ball to back up less or roll out less as compared to a dry green?

Green condition (dry and firm) - More roll out or backspin for any spin rate?

Green condition (other) - ?

Lenth of green effect? - ?

Ball placement - Moving ball forward slightly from center 1/2 or 1/4 ball increments should reduce spin? Moving ball back slightly from center 1/2 or 1/4 ball increments should increase spin?

I figure with some rules of thumb in each category that I can better focus my practice to get a result that is more favorable. I have read the Pelz book and the Utley book is on-deck.

Thanks for any input.

-E

In my Grom bag:

Driver........... Burner 9.5* S-Flex
3-Wood......... Burner 15* S-Flex
5-Wood......... Ovation 18* S-FlexIrons............. Pro Combos 3,5-PW Rifle 6.0Wedges......... CG12 52.10, 56.14, 60.10Putter............ 33" VP1 Milled PutterBall................ e6+ or B330-SRangefinder.....

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just hitting off the mats is enough to create a lot of backspin. I would not worry about changing anything until you get on the course and see what is actually happening. If you start spinning back short pitch shots and don't like it, then you can do something.

My swing thoughts:

- Negative thinking hurts more than negative swinging.
- I let my swing balance me.
- Full extension back and through to the target. - I swing under not around my body. - My club must not twist in my swing. - Keep a soft left knee

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One thing you can do to lessen spin is to take more club that you really need, but not swing as hard.
The harder you swing, the more spin you will generate.

Whats in my :sunmountain: C-130 cart bag?

Woods: :mizuno: JPX 850 9.5*, :mizuno: JPX 850 15*, :mizuno: JPX-850 19*, :mizuno: JPX Fli-Hi #4, :mizuno: JPX 800 Pro 5-PW, :mizuno: MP T-4 50-06, 54-09 58-10, :cleveland: Smart Square Blade and :bridgestone: B330-S

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mats are not realistic at all, they tend to mask bad shots and while you may be generating a ton of backspin off them you may have a lot less on the course, try playing the ball an inch forward in your stance.

What does your setup currently look like?

I saw an interesting video today on chipping and common flaws. how most people have too wide of a stance and so on, try moving your feet closer together
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just hitting off the mats is enough to create a lot of backspin.

I had a suspicion that this was the case.

I just got to thinking after it happened that there are a lot of contibuting factors to how a ball responds when it lands. I guess I will go experiment once the weather gets a little bit warmer. -E

In my Grom bag:

Driver........... Burner 9.5* S-Flex
3-Wood......... Burner 15* S-Flex
5-Wood......... Ovation 18* S-FlexIrons............. Pro Combos 3,5-PW Rifle 6.0Wedges......... CG12 52.10, 56.14, 60.10Putter............ 33" VP1 Milled PutterBall................ e6+ or B330-SRangefinder.....

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What i find helps my spin controll is pure contact along with tempo. The reason i used the word tempo is beacause it is what i use to monitor or "feel out" the shot i am about to hit. When you strike it pure it will generate a lot of spin. So your touch along with a consistant tempo (for that peticular shot) is the way i controll my spin. It is a very hard concept to explain but once it is felt it will make perfect sense.

Hope this helps, Chris

Chris Nunes,17 yrs old

In My Bag:
Woods:Nike Sasquatch Tour Model (Driver), Nike Sumo 3 wood
Irons: Callaway X-Forged (Project X 6.0)Wedge: Callaway C Grind 58 degree,Titleist Volkey 54 degree (oil can)Putter Cleveland Classic 2 or Scotty Cameron Santa Fe teryllium "Everyday you miss practicing it...

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Trajectory would be my big question. On my half pitch shots I don't want the ball going any higher than a 34 degree launch angle. That's my bounce and check pitch shot. When I get up into the 40 degree range that's when I start getting some crazy spin - and it starts short of the pin so it is doubly no good.

T.M. O'Connell

What's in My Bag
Driver - 909 D2 9.5 degree
3 Wood - 909 F2 15.5 degreeHybrid - 909 H 19 degreeIrons - AP2 w/ Rifle 6.5Wedges - BN 60.04 & 54.11Putter - Pro Platinum Plus

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just hitting off the mats is enough to create a lot of backspin. I would not worry about changing anything until you get on the course and see what is actually happening. If you start spinning back short pitch shots and don't like it, then you can do something.

I agree. I think you'll find that you will not be in this situation off the turf. It's very, very easy to slide the club under the ball on artificial surfaces and create crazy amounts of spin. I'd actually suggest that you are in GREAT shape. Tons of spin off the mats is a good sign.

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What does your setup currently look like?

Ball centered in stance. Weight 60% front foot. Hands slightly ahead of ball at address. Club square to target line.

What i find helps my spin controll is pure contact along with tempo. The reason i used the word tempo is beacause it is what i use to monitor or "feel out" the shot i am about to hit. When you strike it pure it will generate a lot of spin. So your touch along with a consistant tempo (for that peticular shot) is the way i controll my spin. It is a very hard concept to explain but once it is felt it will make perfect sense.

When I swing I am attepting to make a consistant tempo swing for a consistant distance. With the tempo that I am currently comfortable with I am not sure I would want to start to attempt to change this. I think if ball position affects spin I would prefer to make a modification there.

Trajectory would be my big question. On my half pitch shots I don't want the ball going any higher than a 34 degree launch angle. That's my bounce and check pitch shot. When I get up into the 40 degree range that's when I start getting some crazy spin - and it starts short of the pin so it is doubly no good.

Seriously? I don't think I could tell with my eye where 34* is and I am definately sure that I would confuse a 6* change in trajectory by just an eyeball judgement. Regardless of ability to measure what do you do to change trajectory?

I agree. I think you'll find that you will not be in this situation off the turf. It's very, very easy to slide the club under the ball on artificial surfaces and create crazy amounts of spin. I'd actually suggest that you are in GREAT shape. Tons of spin off the mats is a good sign.

I suspected that the mat was contributing to my spin. A couple more weeks and I will get to see what happens off the turf.

-E

In my Grom bag:

Driver........... Burner 9.5* S-Flex
3-Wood......... Burner 15* S-Flex
5-Wood......... Ovation 18* S-FlexIrons............. Pro Combos 3,5-PW Rifle 6.0Wedges......... CG12 52.10, 56.14, 60.10Putter............ 33" VP1 Milled PutterBall................ e6+ or B330-SRangefinder.....

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Seriously? I don't think I could tell with my eye where 34* is and I am definately sure that I would confuse a 6* change in trajectory by just an eyeball judgement.

Yup, seriously. I video tape my swings - well all my swings. But I would definitely video tape your swing face on if you are concerned. Four feet isn't anything to be too worried about though, especially off of mats. If you can control it that's fine. I just like a lower trajectory with a little less spin than that.

Regardless of ability to measure what do you do to change trajectory?

I wouldn't move the ball back in your stance, I would actually just check to see what your lag angle is at impact. With a sand wedge it should be 15 degrees.

I know, lots of degrees that you would think are minute. If you video tape your swing it's easy to see. Without video, at least check to see if you have some forward lean with your club at impact. If your club is vertical at impact then you definitely don't have enough lag.

T.M. O'Connell

What's in My Bag
Driver - 909 D2 9.5 degree
3 Wood - 909 F2 15.5 degreeHybrid - 909 H 19 degreeIrons - AP2 w/ Rifle 6.5Wedges - BN 60.04 & 54.11Putter - Pro Platinum Plus

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I know, lots of degrees that you would think are minute. If you video tape your swing it's easy to see. Without video, at least check to see if you have some forward lean with your club at impact. If your club is vertical at impact then you definitely don't have enough lag.

I hate to make an ad hominem argument, but it seems that club lag seems to be your answer for all swing woes as of your recent posts on this board.

I realize that I have not posted any video of my pitching swing so you only have the benefit of what information I have given you and the disadvantage of the impreciseness of language. However, I would think that in a 1/2 swing pitch shot, if one were not creating lag the ball would roll out regardless of the mat or green conditions. Secondly, as I understand it lag is a function of swing mechanics, are you suggesting that I attempt to vary the amount of lag I create in my swing to control spin?
Originally Posted by Eeryck
What do you do to change trajectory?

Finally, checking lag angle is how you change trajectory of your shot?

I am sorry if this comes across in the wrong fashion, I am just fairly bewildered by your response. I understand that this is a forum and that I have asked the question so obviously I am not the expert, but I think that a bit more clarity is a reasonable request. -E

In my Grom bag:

Driver........... Burner 9.5* S-Flex
3-Wood......... Burner 15* S-Flex
5-Wood......... Ovation 18* S-FlexIrons............. Pro Combos 3,5-PW Rifle 6.0Wedges......... CG12 52.10, 56.14, 60.10Putter............ 33" VP1 Milled PutterBall................ e6+ or B330-SRangefinder.....

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Ha. Sorry. I deserve that for trying to do work and type on the forum at the same time. One by one - this time a little more carefully.

Lag Redundancy
Lag just seems to be a theme of the day or two. And this isn't me saying that lag isn't important because personally I feel it is one of the most important parts of a solid swing. It is just funny to me that I haven't had to think about it for months and yet there are so many posts dealing with trajectory, solid contact, or power gains lately.

Lag and Pitch Shots
What you were describing was a problem with too much spin on those pitch shots. When you are hitting a pitch shot, you can have solid contact without spin. However, if you make good contact and have lots of back spin and your trajectory is too high, this makes it so that the ball is much more likely to spin back. I remember reading this somewhere but backspin = contact + trajectory. So my solution was to reduce trajectory for your shot - and do this consistently - so that your ball would not have has much backspin on it.

Lag and Swing Mechanics
I could go on for a long time on this one so I'll attempt to be succinct. Lag is absolutely a function of swing mechanics. Lag also varies per club. I have a huge chart I could post with this but here are a few that you might be interested in:

Driver 4 degrees of lag - 12-14 degree launch angle
7 Iron 10 degrees of lag - 20-22 degree launch angle
SW 15 degrees of lag - 30-32 degree launch angle

So as you can see, the optimal ball flight and lag angles definitely vary per club based on ball speed and a number of other factors.

Making the Change
The tricky thing about lag is that there is no silver bullet. I would suggest a lag stick because it creates instant feedback without a camera but there are hundreds of other ways to address this. Pitch shots are a little easier to monitor without a camera because the swing is shorter and at a slower speed so if you were going to go to the range tomorrow you could try either: (1) locking your knuckles under during your down swing (like a forced pronation movement) OR (2) bend your leading elbow to point towards the target during your follow through. Hogan, Garcia, and Woods did option 2 when they were starting working on lag but you have to keep in mind that it is a band-aid rather than a permanent fix. Forcing your pronation can slow your swing down substantially until you get used to it but it doesn't affect the mechanics of your swing nearly as much.

And just for the sake of being thorough, here is a video of Ben Hogan hitting a pitch shot with a nice trajectory using lag.


I am sure I missed something in your question/comment/concern but I think you would agree I was a less vague. Sorry about before. Enjoy :)

T.M. O'Connell

What's in My Bag
Driver - 909 D2 9.5 degree
3 Wood - 909 F2 15.5 degreeHybrid - 909 H 19 degreeIrons - AP2 w/ Rifle 6.5Wedges - BN 60.04 & 54.11Putter - Pro Platinum Plus

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This seems to be a handsy type fix. Would a similar result come from a weaker right hand position at address with the same left hand position to limit wrist movement.

Also, I would like to be a bit more clear as well. A good portion of my question had to do with the nature of the result based on the condition. Only a small portion on my mechanics. Knowing that mats make the ball spin substatially more may have been sufficient. I suspect that the damp / dormant grass near the pin I was hitting too also made for more bite when it first hit the ground. Thanks for the clarification. Regards, -E

In my Grom bag:

Driver........... Burner 9.5* S-Flex
3-Wood......... Burner 15* S-Flex
5-Wood......... Ovation 18* S-FlexIrons............. Pro Combos 3,5-PW Rifle 6.0Wedges......... CG12 52.10, 56.14, 60.10Putter............ 33" VP1 Milled PutterBall................ e6+ or B330-SRangefinder.....

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Note: This thread is 5485 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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