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2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back - Page 2

post #19 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Despite all the negatives involved with playing 2nd banana to the man, that is, the conditions of the greens, driving range and everything else, it' too big of an opportunity for the LPGA to pass up.
post #20 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by CreamerFan View Post
Despite all the negatives involved with playing 2nd banana to the man, that is, the conditions of the greens, driving range and everything else, it' too big of an opportunity for the LPGA to pass up.

The LPGA has no say in it, both events are run by the USGA. What will be wrong with the conditions of the greens? The driving range is plenty big so I don't think that the women have to be worried about hitting off of dirt. The only problem areas would be outside the ropes and the landing areas on some holes, if the same, would have a lot more sand filled divots then normal.
post #21 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by RemyM View Post
The LPGA has no say in it, both events are run by the USGA. What will be wrong with the conditions of the greens? The driving range is plenty big so I don't think that the women have to be worried about hitting off of dirt. The only problem areas would be outside the ropes and the landing areas on some holes, if the same, would have a lot more sand filled divots then normal.
The greens after a U.S. Open are near death. 12 is about the fastest you can get most greens without too much risk, but once you push it to 13+ they're just about on the edge. Greens at 13+ for a week require intensive care when the event is over, and they won't have the chance to do that this week. Sure, for the women they'll back it off to 11-12, but that's not really enough. They'll be beat up and near death all week.

And that's not really the "beat up" factor - I remember someone saying that the greens at another course for a regular PGA Tour stop were STILL beat up three months after the event was played. Not entirely sure what that means - ball marks, spike marks, general traffic? - but they were very sure of what they were saying.
post #22 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
The greens after a U.S. Open are near death. 12 is about the fastest you can get most greens without too much risk, but once you push it to 13+ they're just about on the edge. Greens at 13+ for a week require intensive care when the event is over, and they won't have the chance to do that this week. Sure, for the women they'll back it off to 11-12, but that's not really enough. They'll be beat up and near death all week.

And that's not really the "beat up" factor - I remember someone saying that the greens at another course for a regular PGA Tour stop were STILL beat up three months after the event was played. Not entirely sure what that means - ball marks, spike marks, general traffic? - but they were very sure of what they were saying.

Yet Oakmont manages to keep their greens at 14 almost all season. With the advent of the new rollers it is no longer necessary to cut greens that short to get fast speeds. Hell they didn't cut the greens at Bethpage on Friday, Saturday or Sunday and still got the speeds near 13. There are some very bright agronomists on the USGA staff. If they thought the greens would be dead after the men's open they would never have proposed this. If it takes over 3 months for greens to recover from a PGA tour event then no course would host any events. Something else had to be going on with those greens.
post #23 of 44
Thread Starter 

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
The greens after a U.S. Open are near death. 12 is about the fastest you can get most greens without too much risk, but once you push it to 13+ they're just about on the edge. Greens at 13+ for a week require intensive care when the event is over, and they won't have the chance to do that this week. Sure, for the women they'll back it off to 11-12, but that's not really enough. They'll be beat up and near death all week.

And that's not really the "beat up" factor - I remember someone saying that the greens at another course for a regular PGA Tour stop were STILL beat up three months after the event was played. Not entirely sure what that means - ball marks, spike marks, general traffic? - but they were very sure of what they were saying.
FWIW, the greens on No. 2 in 2005 were just fine a few days after the 2005 US Open.

I believe that the issue here is that if you push these greens to 13-14 on the stimp, they are mostly "unapproachable".

I don't know about 1999.

dave
post #24 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
FWIW, the greens on No. 2 in 2005 were just fine a few days after the 2005 US Open.

I believe that the issue here is that if you push these greens to 13-14 on the stimp, they are mostly "unapproachable".

I don't know about 1999.

dave
In 2005 the target speed was 11.5
post #25 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by RemyM View Post
Yet Oakmont manages to keep their greens at 14 almost all season.
If you believe that, I'm sure someone out there is willing to sell you some ocean-front property in Idaho.

Originally Posted by RemyM View Post
Hell they didn't cut the greens at Bethpage on Friday, Saturday or Sunday and still got the speeds near 13.
They were able to cut them in those days, and the speeds were around 11, maybe 12.
post #26 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

here's my concern (and please don't flame me).

my concern is that it will be too hard to soften up the course in just three days and the scores will be too high. Remember the aftermath of the 1998 Women's Open at Blackwolf Run where I believe +7 won. The perception was that the women weren't that good, when in reality when the course was set up way too long and hard.
post #27 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by EightBlue View Post
here's my concern (and please don't flame me).

my concern is that it will be too hard to soften up the course in just three days and the scores will be too high. Remember the aftermath of the 1998 Women's Open at Blackwolf Run where I believe +7 won. The perception was that the women weren't that good, when in reality when the course was set up way too long and hard.
If they don't soften and trim the course after the men's tourney and the score ends up being +10, do you think it will have a serious negative impact on the reputation of the LPGA?

On the same note, if they don't soften and trim the course and the lady's scores end up being lower than the men's, do you think it will help the LPGA's image?
post #28 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
They were able to cut them in those days, and the speeds were around 11, maybe 12.
Fourth Round Setup

6:50 p.m. - The fourth round course setup is as follows:

Green Speeds - mid to high 13s (greens were rolled this afternoon during gap between the last group from round 3 and the start of round 4). They were not mown due to extremely wet conditions.

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/news/art...495022734.html

They were cut after the second round

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/news/art...498244781.html

Green speeds are in the mid- to high 13s on the Stimpmeter. The greens were rolled this afternoon during the gap between the last groups from round one and the first groups for round two.

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/news/art...322693000.html
post #29 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
If you believe that, I'm sure someone out there is willing to sell you some ocean-front property in Idaho.
They have a rare strain of poa there that can handle that sort of torture. I'm not sure they cut them to 14 on a daily basis, but they do it many times per year and can get them to 15+, which as far as I'm concerned, is like putting on granite.

A quote from a (I presume) fact-checked publication.

---
Indeed, Oakmont superintendent John Zimmers has been instructed by the United States Golf Association for the U.S. Open to roll the greens at only 13 to 13.5 on the Stimpmeter, the device used to measure the speed of the greens.

That, though, will be slower than when the Oakmont members play in the SWAT party, when the greens roll at 15. Last fall, when more than a dozen PGA Tour pros played in a charity pro-am at Oakmont, the greens were rolled at 14.
--


They were able to cut them in those days, and the speeds were around 11, maybe 12.
I actually watched them roll three balls on television to about a 13.5

And if I recall, the greens were only cut once during the whole tournament.
post #30 of 44

Re: 2014 Men's/Women's US Open Back to Back

Originally Posted by NotAStick View Post
They have a rare strain of poa there that can handle that sort of torture. I'm not sure they cut them to 14 on a daily basis, but they do it many times per year and can get them to 15+, which as far as I'm concerned, is like putting on granite.
I said they didn't keep them at 14 "almost all season." For special events, maybe they can (but I still kind of doubt it). Every day, all season? No. Oakmont loves to play up the macho angle and their green speeds, and while they are faster than most anywhere else, most places that say they're a 12 are actually a 10, so they get away with saying they're 14 or something. Truth is, you can't even really measure Oakmont's greens because you can't find many spots flat enough spot to test! You're supposed to measure in two directions - uphill and downhill without side slopes - with at least three balls, and average the "uphill" and "downhill" measurements. If there aren't any greens with a 14-foot flat section or one with a single gentle slope then you can't get an accurate measurement.

The greens at Oakmont have some flat spots or some gentle slopes, but they're eight or ten feet wide - nowhere near wide enough to truly measure a stimp reading of more than about 10 or 11. If a ball rolls down a gentle slope for 10 feet, catches a tier, and rolls another 30, while balls from the other side roll 8 feet up a gentle slope, the green doesn't stimp at 24 ([40+8]/2) - it's a bad measurement.

As for the cutting, I could swear they said they cut the greens at least twice during the week. Maybe I heard them say "we're planning to cut the greens this evening" and then they couldn't or something. I'll also choose to believe what players and commentators said - all of whom seemed to comment on how slow the greens were. Call me a cynic, but the USGA - like Oakmont - like to be a bit macho at times. I don't quite believe that they spent a significant amount of time at 13+.

But I also don't care enough to argue beyond this last post. It was what it was, and now it's in the past. The future? That's the topic here, and I still support the USGA's decision to go back-to-back, but will be watching curiously to see how things truly shake out - the greens being one of the more interesting things. I like Women's Opens at Pine Needles and actually think it's a better course than Pinehurst #2. It'll be an interesting two weeks.
post #31 of 44

Maybe this thread should be in another forum but since it's about the course more than the golf I'm not sure.

 

It will be interesting to see how it works out with the men and women playing consecutive weeks.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/randall-mell/two-weeks-june-us-opens-never/

 

Things I am curious enough to watch for:

 

Whether the greens on Sunday will look like typical US Open greens.

 

How many divots the women have to deal with.

 

How it will play with wider fairways but no rough.

 

What type of player it may favor.

 

How firm the greens will be.

 

 

 

Will be a different look with only two grass heights. Fairways and greens. No "rough" as we usually think of it.

 

BTW. I have thought for a long time that there should be more "native areas" on the courses that we play instead of wall to wall mowing.

post #32 of 44

Am I understanding right?  Because the women will be playing the following week, they will not be growing rough like they ordinarily would?

 

Please tell me that's not the case......

post #33 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

Am I understanding right?  Because the women will be playing the following week, they will not be growing rough like they ordinarily would?

 

Please tell me that's not the case......


I don't think that had any bearing on the redesign without rough.

post #34 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 


I don't think that had any bearing on the redesign without rough.

 

I don't think that it did.  It was more of an effort to restore the course to it's original conditions.  And it's being used a sustainable golf course model by the USGA.  I think it will be fascinating.  But I'm really looking forward to the open at Chambers Bay next year.  That course looks like a moonscape from above.

post #35 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 


I don't think that had any bearing on the redesign without rough.

 

Wanna bet?

 

Though I doubt anyone will have the cojones to admit it......

post #36 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

Wanna bet?

 

Though I doubt anyone will have the cojones to admit it......

 

They removed all the rough. There's no rough to "grow" (or cut) for the women.

 

There's basically fairways, greens, bunkers, tees, and waste areas.

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