or Connect
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Instruction and Playing Tips › Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing? - Page 2

post #19 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

I believe more people don't copy his swing because of its mechanical nature. I believe that he suffered a major head truma at some point fairly early in his life this may be a significant factor in his swing method. I believe it also made him socially awkward and uncomfortable in many situations.
post #20 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

Originally Posted by Saint View Post
You should really try to get the fade and draw down. There are times when that is the shot you need to hit.
Total agreement here!!!!!!


Straight shots.......forgetaboutit.....it's more fun to "see" the shot and pull it off.
post #21 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

Originally Posted by enduro View Post
That's actually from Jack Nicklaus' mouth. His idea being that if you can reliably hit a fade or a draw then you take half the course out of play. As well, good luck hitting it straight every single time. Sure, if I had laser eyes and was an android I could program myself to hit perfectly straight shots every time. But I'm a human and I can't. So I don't try. Because it's impossible.

I agree there's many ways to approach this game. His method could work for some people. But I don't believe his method is any easier or harder to learn and master than any other swing. This guy hit thousands of balls a day.
I never friggin' understood this. If you can reliably hit ANY ball flight, then you can plan such that you have room for error, while there's always a chance you cross yourself and end up screwed.

Examples:
* I routinely play a fade. I aim off the left edge of the fairway, I expect a fade to the middle. A slight fade ends up on the left half, a more severe fade ends up right half. If I slice it, I'll go right rough. If I hit it straight, left rough; if I pull it, left junk. OK, fine.

* Switch it all up for a hook. Same thing, you may expect to be safe, have room for slight mishits, but your severe mishits can end up badly.

* What if I routinely hit it dead straight? I aim dead middle and expect to end up middle. If I hit a slight draw, left half; slight fade, right half. Pull or push, one rough or the other.

I fail to see why you SHOULD try to shape the ball as your matter of course. IMO, it comes down to, what do you do most consistently, and then you need to plan your shots and your alignment as such. Is being able to shape a ball an advantage? Absolutely. Do I believe 99% of amateurs need to? Hell no. Do I believe it inhibits people learning the simple, yet difficult and necessary, art of knowing how to strike a ball. Hell, yes.

The moral is: the most needed shot in golf is the one where you can simply aim at a target and hit it in that direction the proper distance. Whichever ball flight and shape you can do that with most consistently is the one you should play.
post #22 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

Originally Posted by sonicblue View Post
I never friggin' understood this. If you can reliably hit ANY ball flight, then you can plan such that you have room for error, while there's always a chance you cross yourself and end up screwed.

Examples:
* I routinely play a fade. I aim off the left edge of the fairway, I expect a fade to the middle. A slight fade ends up on the left half, a more severe fade ends up right half. If I slice it, I'll go right rough. If I hit it straight, left rough; if I pull it, left junk. OK, fine.

* Switch it all up for a hook. Same thing, you may expect to be safe, have room for slight mishits, but your severe mishits can end up badly.

* What if I routinely hit it dead straight? I aim dead middle. Slight draw, left half; slight fade, right half. Pull or push, one rough or the other.

I fail to see why you SHOULD try to shape the ball as your matter of course. IMO, it comes down to, what do you do most consistently, and then you need to plan your shots and your alignment as such. Is being able to shape a ball an advantage? Absolutely. Do I believe 99% of amateurs need to? Hell no. Do I believe it inhibits people learning the simple, yet difficult and necessary, art of knowing how to strike a ball. Hell, yes.

The moral is: the most needed shot in golf is the one where you can simply aim at a target and hit it in that direction the proper distance. Whichever ball flight and shape you can do that with most consistently is the one you should play.
Because when you aim for the middle and you miss left, you hit an obstacle. When you aim down the middle and miss right you hit an obstacle. If you play a fade or draw and miss you're not as likely to be in the junk. Why? Because of the angle the ball comes in.

Think about this for a second. If you tee off and expect a straight shot, the fairway is only as wide as it is. However, if you play a fade or a draw the fairway suddenly becomes a very wide thing indeed. The ball is coming in at an angle from the side and now you have a lot of margin of error. In effect, the fairway becomes as wide as it is long. If you draw it too much it's gonna be on the left side of the fairway. If you don't draw it enough, it's probably on the right side. I find it hard to miss as much with a draw because of the conscious effort to work the ball. I work it too much or not enough but I don't ever end up to the right and I don't usually miss by hitting a straight shot. It isn't a panacea and I miss plenty of things but I hit a lot more often than when I always went for a straight shot.

I'm not saying don't ever play a straight shot. I play straight shots a lot. But I can draw the ball (and actually my typical shot has a small draw in it) reliably since putting deliberate spin on the ball is easier than trying to not put any on it. If I'm trying to not put any on it there is a small target on the ball where it musty be struck. If I'm OK with putting spin on it then I'm setting up for a shot that is expecting that and if I miss I may put too little or too much but I have a larger window of error here. And since I'm going that way, I know for certain I won't miss the other way.

I agree, a fundamental golf swing that the golfer is conscious of and can self diagnose is the most important thing. I wouldn't worry about shaping a shot until a repeatable straight shot is burned in. For the advanced golfer though, I'd learn to hit a draw or fade and eventually both and use when needed. It makes the fairways super wide and allows you to attack the ball from a certain side making the ball target larger as well.
post #23 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

Originally Posted by enduro View Post
And since I'm going that way, I know for certain I won't miss the other way.

.
yea because no one double crosses thierselfs,nor do they not hit a draw and put it in right rough,wow it must be good to never miss a shot that bad.
post #24 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

Originally Posted by enduro View Post
Because when you aim for the middle and you miss left, you hit an obstacle. When you aim down the middle and miss right you hit an obstacle. If you play a fade or draw and miss you're not as likely to be in the junk. Why? Because of the angle the ball comes in.

Think about this for a second. If you tee off and expect a straight shot, the fairway is only as wide as it is. However, if you play a fade or a draw the fairway suddenly becomes a very wide thing indeed. The ball is coming in at an angle from the side and now you have a lot of margin of error. In effect, the fairway becomes as wide as it is long. If you draw it too much it's gonna be on the left side of the fairway. If you don't draw it enough, it's probably on the right side. I find it hard to miss as much with a draw because of the conscious effort to work the ball. I work it too much or not enough but I don't ever end up to the right and I don't usually miss by hitting a straight shot. It isn't a panacea and I miss plenty of things but I hit a lot more often than when I always went for a straight shot.

I'm not saying don't ever play a straight shot. I play straight shots a lot. But I can draw the ball (and actually my typical shot has a small draw in it) reliably since putting deliberate spin on the ball is easier than trying to not put any on it. If I'm trying to not put any on it there is a small target on the ball where it musty be struck. If I'm OK with putting spin on it then I'm setting up for a shot that is expecting that and if I miss I may put too little or too much but I have a larger window of error here. And since I'm going that way, I know for certain I won't miss the other way.

I agree, a fundamental golf swing that the golfer is conscious of and can self diagnose is the most important thing. I wouldn't worry about shaping a shot until a repeatable straight shot is burned in. For the advanced golfer though, I'd learn to hit a draw or fade and eventually both and use when needed. It makes the fairways super wide and allows you to attack the ball from a certain side making the ball target larger as well.
Originally Posted by ping12 View Post
yea because no one double crosses thierselfs,nor do they not hit a draw and put it in right rough,wow it must be good to never miss a shot that bad.
The bolded term above is the key, and ping12 is right. If we all hit the shot we expect, there's no issue. It simply comes down to the difference between your expectation, the small miss, the big miss, and the horrific miss. If I play straight/middle fairway, my small miss won't 'hit an obstacle,' it should still catch fairway, b/c a 'small miss' off a straight shot would be just a slight curve. That's no different that someone aiming left fairway; their small miss might be hitting it straight with no curve, and they'll hit left fairway.

Someone who doesn't shape the ball doesn't put "no spin" on the ball, they put "straight spin" on it. If someone told me that everyone's anatomy could more easily hit one shape vs. another, then I'd buy it. Otherwise, as I said before, it comes down to, what is your most reliable shot/flight and how you plan for it. I'm still unconvinced when someone says that this game is easier if you can 'always play a fade/draw,' or such. Further, while some shots may demand a curve to be 'great,' I feel like 99% of the shots I've ever faced could be executed 'very well' with something that flies straight.

I'm still of the belief that square contact/square impact should be the foundation of anyone's early learning. If you find you are consistently, consistently hitting a particular shape, fine, but I wouldn't recommend any mid/high-handicapper be worried too much about having an arsenal of shot shapes. I just don't think the return on that effort is rewarded in your score or is as universally applicable compared to working on chipping, putting, sand play, tee consistency, etc...
post #25 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

The answer to the original question is quite simple: Moe Norman either had severe obsessive-compulsive tendencies, or was an autistic savant. The only thing Moe was ever concerned with was his swing, and no one else has the time or the energy needed to perfect it.
post #26 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

This man is a genius!!

After watching the video clinics of Moe in this thread I went to the range to try it out. First 10 balls or so felt bizarre. Suddenly something clicked and it was magic! I have NEVER hit a ball so pure in my life! I thought I knew what a pure connection felt like, but I had no idea until now. You never even feel the ball on the face!

I've never had more fun golfing than I did tonight! Ball after ball after ball was straight and LOOOONG... 9-10 shots were DEAD straight, compared to 3-10 before, and I mean DEAD straight. Not a single slice or hook. At worst my poorest shots had a slide fade... Better yet, I have absolutely no pain in my back between my spine and right shoulder blade like I would normally get after hitting even 20 balls; and I blasted through 2 jumbo buckets tonight!! Also, as far as distance goes I'm normally happy to roll past the 150' tall trees at the back of the range(220ish from where I was standing).. Tonight I was hitting the trunks half-way up!

Genius. Incredible. Insane.

I've just found my swing. Wherever you are Moe, thank you!
post #27 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

After watching the videos, I really regret not knowing about him and trying to see a clinic in person. That would be an experience of a lifetime to see him for an hour on a practice tee. To see where all the shots ended up.
post #28 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

Originally Posted by sonicblue View Post
The bolded term above is the key, and ping12 is right. If we all hit the shot we expect, there's no issue. It simply comes down to the difference between your expectation, the small miss, the big miss, and the horrific miss. If I play straight/middle fairway, my small miss won't 'hit an obstacle,' it should still catch fairway, b/c a 'small miss' off a straight shot would be just a slight curve. That's no different that someone aiming left fairway; their small miss might be hitting it straight with no curve, and they'll hit left fairway.

Someone who doesn't shape the ball doesn't put "no spin" on the ball, they put "straight spin" on it. If someone told me that everyone's anatomy could more easily hit one shape vs. another, then I'd buy it. Otherwise, as I said before, it comes down to, what is your most reliable shot/flight and how you plan for it. I'm still unconvinced when someone says that this game is easier if you can 'always play a fade/draw,' or such. Further, while some shots may demand a curve to be 'great,' I feel like 99% of the shots I've ever faced could be executed 'very well' with something that flies straight.

I'm still of the belief that square contact/square impact should be the foundation of anyone's early learning. If you find you are consistently, consistently hitting a particular shape, fine, but I wouldn't recommend any mid/high-handicapper be worried too much about having an arsenal of shot shapes. I just don't think the return on that effort is rewarded in your score or is as universally applicable compared to working on chipping, putting, sand play, tee consistency, etc...
This discussion still misses the point of having a preferred non-straight flight. Let me take the example of a power fade (which is not the same as a slice, nor is it the opposite of a mild draw). In a properly executed set-up for a power fade, it is simply not possible to hit a hook or draw, even if one follows through and releases too quickly. A perfectly straight shot is rare, but possible. If one aims near the left edge of the fairway, the ball will be in the fairway, even if it is hit dead straight. The more fade that is produced, the closer to the middle of the fairway the ball will be. Even a modest slice will be on the right side of the fairway. For reasons too technical to describe briefly, a mild draw is harder to hit consistently than a power fade (which is really a mild push). Now, the same effective use of the entire width of the fairway could be accomplished by hitting a dead straight ball, with the only "misses" being mild pushes/slices or pulls/draws. But precious few golfers can accomplish that on a consistent basis. Straight balls are fine. Which is probably why Tiger Woods has been quoted as saying: "Never aim so that you are in trouble if the ball goes straight." You just absolutely have to know whether your less-than-straight ball is going to go right or left.
post #29 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

Some variation of Moe Norman's swing is useful for older people with bad backs because it involves less rotation of the torso.
post #30 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

Originally Posted by Chilli Dipper View Post
The answer to the original question is quite simple: Moe Norman either had severe obsessive-compulsive tendencies, or was an autistic savant. The only thing Moe was ever concerned with was his swing, and no one else has the time or the energy needed to perfect it.
What has his auticsm to do with his golf swing? Nothing what so ever. Well he was obsessed with golf and hitting balls, and perfecting a swing concept he thought would be best for him. So he put his theory into practice and was quite sucessful with it. But Hogan did the very same thing with his own ideas - without being an autist.

So most of us learned Hogans basic concepts within a couple of weeks - but none of us will most likely ever perfect it - same goes for Moes swing conecpt - its not difficult to understand and turn into practice - i would even say, its much easier to realize when you already know how to it a ball - but perfecting it - no, nobody has the time for that.

Funny thing - i´am experiementing with some elements of this swing in the last couple weeks. So about 2 weeks ago i was hitting balls on the range with an extremly wide upright stance and high hands and so on - obv. a bit "unusual" looking. Behind me on the range, some old guy trying to pick up the game hits crappy shots all over the place - he is "teached" by his wife/girlfriend whatever. So he seems to find some liking in what i´m doing and starts discussing with his "teacher". Just a couple seconds later i hear her saying: "Nah forget it - he is doing it all wrong" and starts critizing some of the very obv. things in my set up. I found this situation so amusing i started laughing, getting criticized by some +20hcpers who couldnt understand what i was doing, but beating on the "unconventional". I guess you would get that a lot if you would alter your swing outside the conventional way - but honestly, who cares, if you have the necessary confidence in yourself and your game.

I would like to add one more thing - since picking up elements of Moe´s swing and trying to incorperate them into my swing i´m just way more solid in my long game. I never was a good driver of the ball - i always sliced the heck out of it and hitting lots of fat shots with my irons, basically overnight it turned into a power fade with pretty much every club and these fat shots that have been plaguing me for so long are reduced heavily. I played today and hit a new personal best, missing only one fairway and hitting 73% GIR and the ones i missed only by a couple feet. Honestly, i have no idea what my ball striking makes so good in the last couple of weeks, but it started improving when i first read about this guy on this forum a couple weeks back.

Now if there would be only such an easy approach to putting
post #31 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

I watched the link to the clinc by Moe and I wasn't that impressed (if he's what someone considers to be a good teacher, then I'd hate to see a bad one!). That isn't to say I don't believe Moe to have been the real deal and an amazing golfer, because he was, but I don't see where his swing or technique is intrensicly better than anyone elses? What impressed me by the clinic was a 70 year old man was able to hit a steady stream of balls for an hour pretty much the way he wanted (I have to admit that alone is a pretty strong endorsement for his swing). It was hard to see how well his shots went due to poor video quality, so I wasn't able to confim when he was saying his drives were going over 300 yards (maybe they were). But honestly what was it he was doing that is so dramatically different than from any other good professional level golfer? Lee Travino could and does the same thing all the time (put on a clinic and hit nothing but good shots for an hour). What I took away from the videos is that Moe was a guy who spent a lot of time on his game to the point of it being an obsession. But isn't that pretty much what every successful pro golfer does?

What I would really like to see are some videos of modern adherents to Moe's swing techniques and how they are able to put them into effect.
post #32 of 136

Re: Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?

Originally Posted by Chief Broom View Post
I watched the link to the clinc by Moe and I wasn't that impressed (if he's what someone considers to be a good teacher, then I'd hate to see a bad one!). That isn't to say I don't believe Moe to have been the real deal and an amazing golfer, because he was, but I don't see where his swing or technique is intrensicly better than anyone elses? What impressed me by the clinic was a 70 year old man was able to hit a steady stream of balls for an hour pretty much the way he wanted (I have to admit that alone is a pretty strong endorsement for his swing). It was hard to see how well his shots went due to poor video quality, so I wasn't able to confim when he was saying his drives were going over 300 yards (maybe they were). But honestly what was it he was doing that is so dramatically different than from any other good professional level golfer? Lee Travino could and does the same thing all the time (put on a clinic and hit nothing but good shots for an hour). What I took away from the videos is that Moe was a guy who spent a lot of time on his game to the point of it being an obsession. But isn't that pretty much what every successful pro golfer does?

What I would really like to see are some videos of modern adherents to Moe's swing techniques and how they are able to put them into effect.
Moe never was a teacher. He had extreme shyness and communication difficulties which kept him from realizing his potential on the PGA tour. He could show you how to swing like him, but if he had to describe it he couldn't.
post #33 of 136

Moe Norman's Action

I would like to start a dscusion on Moe Normans action. I say  action delibately because thats what it was. Moe Norman wasent born with the ability to make a golf swing.In other words he wasent a natual  but he found a way to swing the club  successfully with a golf action.The handicapper swings the club with a golf action.The better players like low handicappers, three two scrach and pros, swing the club with a golf swing. Mow Norman was the only golfer in the history of the game that was successful at swinging the club with a golf action.Thats why what he did when he swung his club was cauld a secret. And if you understand what he did when he swing his club,you will know the secret to golf.Because it meens you can be successfull without being one of the two persent of all golfers that are born with the gift of beinig able to make a golf swing.Because I know what I know I can categorically say Moe Norman never past his secret on to nobody. And when you think about it why should he? It was the one and only thing that got him out of his bed in the mornig.The knolage that fifty milion are wrong and he was the only one that was right  .....I can talk  more about Moe Norman if you are interested  

post #34 of 136
Moe Norman had a very inside take away with his left arm on plane with his shoulders. He was a stocky guy and could generate a lot of power just in his shoulder turn.
post #35 of 136

The guy hit millions of golf balls thats the secret.

post #36 of 136

He was golf's version of Rain Man. Childlike up until his death, he just had an unbridled joy about hitting a golf ball. He had a simple, repeatable swing & desire like nobody ever had - not even Hogan. He was just a simple man with only one thing he wanted to do. Hit golf balls.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Instruction and Playing Tips
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Instruction and Playing Tips › Why arent more people copying Moe Norman's swing?