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post #55 of 671
Thread Starter 

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by KwSipp View Post
You could even make a drill out of it by stabbing a shaft into the ground as to the yellow line in this picture, after you strike the ball see where your lead leg is in relationship to the shaft, or even go as far as to video tape your swing with the shaft there as a reference point
I think a lot of people fake it. They hit the ball and then push forward and finish in a decent position, but they aren't where they need to be at impact.
post #56 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

This tip, Erik, has helped my game tremendously in the past week. I have just been going out and swinging farely easy and focusing on sliding my hips. It has gotten rid of my slice and when I strike the ball well it really takes off.
post #57 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Nick Faldo in his prime:
Isn't this picture a bit wrong? The camera is obviously not in the same place on the two pictures. On the second one, the yellow line goes straight through the foot.
Originally Posted by KwSipp
You could even make a drill out of it by stabbing a shaft into the ground as to the yellow line in this picture, after you strike the ball see where your lead leg is in relationship to the shaft, or even go as far as to video tape your swing with the shaft there as a reference point
The easiest would be to video tape it without any shaft and just draw a line on the computer, like Iacas has done to all these players. You really have to watch it in slow motion to get any use of it, as Iacas pointed out, many players fake the position on the follow through. Don't need it on a computer really, if you have a camera, record your swing, view it on a TV or some monitor. Set it to play in slow motion and simple hold an object, a ruler, your finger or whatever, on the outside of your hips, head, or whatever you want to look at. You can also look at the background, but I find it easier with something above it.

I use Youtube a lot to look at swings and there I simply hold the pointer on the outside of the players left hip while it's playing. It's mostly swing vision, so it's easy to see how the hips move. Some players (PGA pros) move slightly backwards in the backswing, but they all get to the same position by impact, hips well forward compared to address.
post #58 of 671
Thread Starter 

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Isn't this picture a bit wrong? The camera is obviously not in the same place on the two pictures. On the second one, the yellow line goes straight through the foot.
The background isn't identical either. This was recorded back (1992 or earlier) when we didn't have high-speed cameras so maybe he moved slightly between photos.

But the yellow line is further forward in the second picture and yet it still demonstrates very clearly how far forward his hips have gone.

So it's still a very useful pair of pictures.
post #59 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

I agree.

I hit some balls at the range today. It was blowing sideways straight into my face and the mats were almost solid plastic, so only two buckets. I did some practice on the hip sliding, and noticed something.

If I just focused on sliding them, I was hitting it left, sort of a pull draw, not too huge curve. Then I experimented some with where the hips went. When I hit it left, my hips were moving to the left. So I hit some shots thinking about what Shawn Clement said about the mirror, sliding the right hip along it. This produced a straight shot. Then I hit some where I moved the hips a bit out to the right during the transition. Shots went right.

Hip slide is one thing, but it it seems, like with many things in golf, it's always possible to do it wrong. I may just try that mirror thing, with a wall or something like that, something fixed that I can't move at all.

Does this little theory of mine hold any water?

Now that I think about it, this can have to do with rotation too. Could be I was rotating the hips too fast or early when hitting left and sort of holding them off, not letting them spin out when hitting to the right.
post #60 of 671
Thread Starter 

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Now that I think about it, this can have to do with rotation too. Could be I was rotating the hips too fast or early when hitting left and sort of holding them off, not letting them spin out when hitting to the right.
I think that has a lot more to do with it than "where" they were going. It's tough to feel exactly where your hips are at impact because they're moving and they move even faster after impact.

And thinking about my hips rarely works for me. I do better when I focus on my knees - making my right knee "bank inwards" or making my left knee go down and forward (it won't actually be able to go down, but it prevents me from standing up too quickly).
post #61 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
And thinking about my hips rarely works for me. I do better when I focus on my knees - making my right knee "bank inwards" or making my left knee go down and forward (it won't actually be able to go down, but it prevents me from standing up too quickly).
good tip!
post #62 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

I know two things. One) this is clearly a major key and explained very well in the original post. Two) As a mid handicapper, very new to the game this can destroy your swing in a heartbeat if you don't have a serious grasp of other sound fundamentals, or don't understand that it's a sway forward and not back and THEN forward. Either way, I became obsessed with this hip move after reading a Hogan book and watching the video that the stills in the first post are from. If you've never seen it, the first split second of the downswing he demonstrates is Rembrandt beautiful. Completely over my head and led to vicious spray and FORES for a month. It is a vital piece though. I read an interesting piece once that Hogan late into his career was saying that moving the hips forward was detrimental. I have a hard time believing a swing junkie like Hogan wasn't aware of his hips.
post #63 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

I was trying to do this on the Golfsmith launch monitor today and determined a few things:

1. It's nearly impossible for a tall guy to shift his weight correctly when standing on one of those launch monitor platforms. Your lead foot will hang off of the front edge of the platform and you will either have to not shift, or play the ball forward of your left foot just to give your damn foot room on that tiny thing.

2. Launch monitors lie, especially dirty ones. I picked up one of those new Ping I15 with a stock S flex shaft and was putting up some pretty good numbers with around 2200 RPM of spin and around 20 yards more carry than I normally get. I thought it was due to me sliding my hips. I tried the club on another monitor and the spin was consistently around 4200. I decided to clean the "loaded" monitor lens and the spin jumped to ~4000. Results inconclusive as I was changing my swing quite a bit.

3. Swinging this way feels more athletic. There's something rhythmic about sliding your hips toward the target on the downswing. One key that I've started using to get the right amount of lateral motion is to imagine where I want my weight to finish. Then I just slide and rotate there. It also gives me an easy way to gauge whether I swung well or not.
post #64 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

I've spent a half day reading this thread and tried to understand how to slide my hips. I can't wait to hit some balls on a range today. Thank you.
post #65 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
...I think "very" open hips can create more speed and thus more power, but in the hands (or hips) of an amateur who lacks the ability to manipulate his body and the clubhead as well as a pro, the vast majority of that power is wasted when they end up cutting across the back of the ball at some obscene angle.

Hips forward with "slight" turn is thus a powerful (though not "very" powerful) and consistent position which leads to good ball striking with well above average distance (though again perhaps not "max" distance).
...
Here are an interesting couple of articles intimating the link between lateral motion and power, not all of which I completely understand.

Where Bubba Gets His Power From

Tiger's Transition: The Fall-in

It seems like a lot of the premise in the articles is that the timing of the slide in the transition is what creates a lot of elastic torque and adds power; and not to mention athleticism to the swing.

I remembered these when I read the previous quote regarding the "hips forward with a slight turn....not creating max distance", but I couldn't remember where I read them. Being a power junkie, and finding it hard to give up distance for control, it naturally hit a sore spot with me. I found the link and am posting it hear. While I completely agree with Iacas in that you really can't add rotational velocity to the clubhead without rotating, and when you are sliding, you aren't rotating as much as you would be otherwise, therefore rotating adds more velocity, it seems like there is something more going on here. For one, it seems like the amount the body has to rotate is just to large to maintain a consistent fast-twitch reaction in the muscles over the entire rotational range. If this assumption were true, I'd think what you would see is a deceleration of the body where it counts: at the end of the range, or nearing impact. This sounds like a recipe for casting and power loss. Not saying that this is why people cast, just trying to imagine a scenario...

The point I'm getting to, which I'm probably not articulating well, is that far from the lateral motion being a power leak, it might actually be necessary to preserve lag until late in the downswing. I've heard quite a bit that you should start the downswing smoothly (some even call it "slow"). For example, Tiger, in his book on how he plays golf, says that he starts the downswing slowly, then pours on the power at roughly the halfway down point. Sergio also comments that his main aim is not to create lag, but to keep his left arm pinned against his chest during the transition so that his shoulders and arms stay back until later. It seems like this lateral "Fall-in" move is key for getting things moving slowly and pulling the arms down passively so that you get impact to occur at the end of the muscular firing of the body (when the club is moving the fastest). Said another way, the sliding buys time while it gets your arms into a good position further along in the swing where quick rotation can impart the maximum velocity along the right plane.

I was testing out this little fall-in move combined with a later set of the wrists in the backswing, and getting my hips a little more forward onto my left leg while keeping my head back yesterday. I noticed that my swing speed jumped from 114 to 119. My body was definitely feeling good yesterday, so that may have been part of it, but I was pleased how easily it was to get into the low 120s again. It had gotten hard for some time since I started focusing on rotation, but it's nice to get some pop back.

But while this is all on the topic of lateral motion, the little fall-in move is definitely something distinct from a forward sliding of the hips during the rotation. I'm guessing, however, we don't have to worry so much about losing distance with a little slide and less rotation, for anyone who may have been concerned.
post #66 of 671
Thread Starter 

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post
Here are an interesting couple of articles intimating the link between lateral motion and power, not all of which I completely understand.
And they're also both one guy's theories. Doesn't mean they're right.

Having said that, it seems he basically agrees with the transfer of weight via a sliding (or "pushing") set of hips coupled with a turn.

The parts I don't specifically like are how high he wants to see the swing go. Too much lifting for my taste.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post
It seems like a lot of the premise in the articles is that the timing of the slide in the transition is what creates a lot of elastic torque and adds power; and not to mention athleticism to the swing.
Yes, the downswing begins with a hip push/slide. In slow motion it's often before the club stops going back, but it can be tough to see in realtime and even tougher to try to groove on your own... so to this point I've kind of avoided talking about specifically _when_ it occurs.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post
While I completely agree with Iacas in that you really can't add rotational velocity to the clubhead without rotating, and when you are sliding, you aren't rotating as much as you would be otherwise, therefore rotating adds more velocity, it seems like there is something more going on here.
I'm not sure I ever really said what you attribute to me saying. A proper hip push is required to generate maximum speed. You can't get to maximum speed purely by rotation.

I have said that - having pushed the hips forward already - the more open you can get your hips at impact the more speed you can generate, yes. But that assumes you've pushed forward properly. Stay on your right side and spin your hips like crazy and the ball isn't going anywhere near as far as a guy who doesn't spin his hips fast at all but who gets a good push forward.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post
If this assumption were true, I'd think what you would see is a deceleration of the body where it counts: at the end of the range, or nearing impact.
The hip rotation isn't "at the end of the range" when you reach impact. For most top-tier golfers, Tiger included, they're only about 30° open at that point. They'll rotate another 60-80 degrees or so after that and have only rotated about 60 to get to that point from the farthest back in the backswing. They're not "at the end." They're at the halfway point.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post
The point I'm getting to, which I'm probably not articulating well, is that far from the lateral motion being a power leak, it might actually be necessary to preserve lag until late in the downswing.
Who the heck said it was a power leak? I'm going to have to scroll up after I post this reply... wow. Whoever's saying that is on drugs.

Of course it's a necessary move to preserve lag. That's one of the first things I said. Casting and over-the-top swings go hand in hand. If the knee kicks out towards the ball and the hips rotate too early, you cast and throw the clubhead over the plane, and you lose not only clubhead speed but also good compression of the golf ball by hitting it squarely.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt View Post
It seems like this lateral "Fall-in" move is key for getting things moving slowly and pulling the arms down passively so that you get impact to occur at the end of the muscular firing of the body (when the club is moving the fastest). Said another way, the sliding buys time while it gets your arms into a good position further along in the swing where quick rotation can impart the maximum velocity along the right plane.
I think that's fine if you're a two-plane swinger. If you're a one-plane swinger, there's really no "fall-in" or "time" required.

Here's another way of putting what you're putting so it applies to all types of swings.

When you rotate the hips too early, the hands go out (over the plane) because the shoulders do too.

When you push the hips and hold back on the rotation, the hands can stay back, in, deep (whatever word you want to use), on or even slightly under the plane, from which you can deliver a solid hit.

Again, goes right back to this picture:



Another way of thinking about this is that when your hands get over the plane, it puts a lot more emphasis on swinging your arms for speed. Arms aren't great at swinging around in circles really fast - they're great at pushing or pulling really fast. Nobody starts a lawnmower by making a giant arc with their arm - they pull it right towards their body.

WHen the club gets out over the plane, you rely on your arm to create speed. When the club remains inside, you can rely on the rotation of your body to create speed.

Plus, arms away from your body slows your body's rotation down too. Same reason figure skaters tuck their arms in and rotate faster - it's tougher to spin when mass is located farther from the center axis.

The hip bump keeps everything closer to you. The "tees under the armpits" drill works for that, too. The closer your arms and hands are to your body, the faster you can rotate.

I'd call that a secondary function of the hip slide/push. The first is that it sets you up to deliver consistent, solid contact with maximum control and speed. The second is that it helps you rotate fastest by keeping your mass close to the center of your body or pivot point, which adds an additional level of speed.
post #67 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Well said by Erik and a few others here - "secrets" are few and far between in golf but this is certainly something that is not emphasized enough by golf instructors to their players.

Let these photos speak for themselves please. Then, if you are still unsure of whether the hips/belt/tailbone/lead knee, etc. are moving forward continuously in great players just keep looking at video anywhere you can. Forget what the players are saying and look at what they are doing. Couple things to note from my quick look at this thread:

1. Erik mentions Kenny Perry and his footwork - it is well done and very important to know that Kenny is an ACCOMPLISHED drawer of the golf ball...with all else constant you can figure that MOST STRAIGHT FORWARD=MOST PUSH/DRAW pattern.

2. Problem 1 with the hips not moving forward long enough: It is at the moment (in the downswing) where they stop going forward and start spinning open that the club tips out and "over the top" causing the hit to be too much across the ball (pull/slice pattern).

3. Ben Hogan - forget the comments in 5 fundamentals and LOOK at the forward motion of his hips and front knee - STUNNING - It is not a coincidence he was the greatest ball striker ever. The ball has no idea who is swinging the club. It flies where it does based solely on physics and geometry.

4. Some people here have mentioned that the rotation of the hips is very important. I agree totally - and it is the forward motion of the hips along with the rising in the belt area that allows the hips to come out of their tilted position and FULLY ROTATE/RELEASE into finish. Without the forward motion and rise the hips are unable to rotate properly and completely.

Dave
post #68 of 671
Thread Starter 

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by david_wedzik View Post
Let these photos speak for themselves please. Then, if you are still unsure of whether the hips/belt/tailbone/lead knee, etc. are moving forward continuously in great players just keep looking at video anywhere you can. Forget what the players are saying and look at what they are doing. Couple things to note from my quick look at this thread:
Dave, for those who haven't guessed, is the instructor I've worked with this year. He's the one who put the tripod between my legs. We spent a lot of time at my last lesson this year working on pushing my hips forward more (and my right knee). I've gotten better at it all year, but previous lessons worked on the takeaway, position at the top, etc.

Dave's an instructor and hosts day-long classes (though he's done for the year). If you're within even six hours of Erie, PA you'll want to check in early next spring with Dave to see about attending - it's well worth it.

Anyway, I wanted to give Dave proper credit for pointing this hip push/slide out to me. After he pointed out the forward hip push to me in my first lesson, I've been studying it all summer, did the photos here in this thread, etc.

Now, the Academy Dave owns is a Stack and Tilt certified academy (first in the country or something like that), but I didn't want the words "Stack and Tilt" to confuse anyone here. As I pointed out, the best players in the world do this move - it's not "specific" to S&T or anything else (unless you'd like to say that it's "specific to good ball-striking").

Anyway, credit where due, and now back to the topic at hand...
post #69 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

I see and agree. I have a question. Without video tape how do you know if you are doing this. I don't have a video camera and I am not sure if my hips are leading my swing and going foward. I have no issues constantly finishing in balance but as you have said (erik) you can cheat yourself there. When I rehearse my swing in slow motion watching myself in a mirror, I see my hips doing this but it is impossible to really tell.

Any clues? I am a hobital drawer of the ball and hit my wedges very low. My friend comments on how much my knees are going foward when I am swinging, particularly my wedges.
post #70 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
....I'm not sure I ever really said what you attribute to me saying. A proper hip push is required to generate maximum speed. You can't get to maximum speed purely by rotation....
Erik, Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for my misunderstanding. I see what you are saying and what the HUGE difference is now. I'm sort of studying this whole concept right now as well, so thanks for bearing with me. Hi Dave!
post #71 of 671

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

When working on this, I find that it's easier to focus on the knees rather than the hips. Pushing out the left knee really gets the chain going, also helps me prevent letting the head follow the hips. If I push the hips out, it's easier to let the head drift along.
This seems to be true, looking at the frames of Bubba Watson. At the beginning of the backswing it's the left knee that move the most, the hips kinda trail behind and doesn't move that much initially.
post #72 of 671
Thread Starter 

Re: The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer View Post
I have a question. Without video tape how do you know if you are doing this. I don't have a video camera and I am not sure if my hips are leading my swing and going foward. I have no issues constantly finishing in balance but as you have said (erik) you can cheat yourself there. When I rehearse my swing in slow motion watching myself in a mirror, I see my hips doing this but it is impossible to really tell.
You could put a stick in the ground outside of your left foot and try to get your knees and hip there quickly. You could do the thing with the tripod and keep your knee inside of that... You could have someone observe you, a "carbon-based video camera" instead of a silicon-based one.

If you hit the ball low and draw it already, you may be compensating (like a really strong grip, perhaps) somehow and you may hit some really ugly shots if you add a good hip push PLUS your compensations.

Or maybe you already push really well and don't have a compensation.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
When working on this, I find that it's easier to focus on the knees rather than the hips. Pushing out the left knee really gets the chain going, also helps me prevent letting the head follow the hips. If I push the hips out, it's easier to let the head drift along.
I find the same thing. Different thoughts work for different people. The knees work for me, but I focus more on my right knee.
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