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TaylorMade made in China - Page 3

post #37 of 69
New SLDR today, thought I would give TM another chance.
I knew most of the work was being done in China, but all of it.
I would feel better if it were Japan, I hit Miura, so I guess that would go down a little easier.
Oh well, that is industry.
post #38 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrambler1 View Post

New SLDR today, thought I would give TM another chance.
I knew most of the work was being done in China, but all of it.
I would feel better if it were Japan, I hit Miura, so I guess that would go down a little easier.
Oh well, that is industry.

You act surprised?
post #39 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmccabe6 View Post
 
 
Ummm... i hate to break it to ya but if it isn't made in China, it's made in Mexico. We don't make ANYTHING here anymore. Hmmm....maybe that's why there's no jobs????

 

correct... and that's prob why this country is going through a hard time: we outsourced all the manufacturing!

post #40 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by virtuaframax View Post
 

 

correct... and that's prob why this country is going through a hard time: we outsourced all the manufacturing!

We sure do, even the development of our government web sites.

post #41 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

We sure do, even the development of our government web sites.
We could and should build custom items in this country.

One issue was unions in the past made things impossiblty complicated to build. They cost too much, and workers were not encouraged to do more than their job function required.

This led management to find alternatives, robotics, at first. Now, China et al.

I don't blame the concept of a union, because the issue is the beaurocracy that tied things up.

If we go back to hand crafted or custom items, many small companies could thrive. Then employees of these small companies can work.
post #42 of 69

As this has seem to turn into a international trade discussion I will go wildly off topic also.

 

Firstly I am Canadian.

 

Secondly I only studied two economics courses (micro and macro) in University because I had to. Frankly I learned and retained nothing.

 

So I am sure I will be flamed by those with a superior intelligence in international trade.

 

Canada has lots of resources .... US has lots of people.

 

The European Union is a mess.

 

China ... can't stand their government.

 

The rest of Asia (other than Japan) ... major source of wealth is cheap labor.

 

Bring back crippling trade tariffs for Europe and Asia imported products.

 

Of course Europe and Asia will retaliate with their own tariffs but who cares.

 

Bring back manufacturing to the US. Source out raw materials from Canada. Sell between Canada and the US without tariffs.

 

Yes the labor costs are going to be high and there will be inflation but at least the wages stay in Canada and the US.

 

Because products from Europe and Asia will be very expensive ... US produced products will be competitive even with higher labor costs.

 

At least we will have employment and maybe we cant afford to buy everything ... is it any worse than what is going on now?

 

Bring back the troops and let the rest of the world fight it out. Don't really need the oil from the middle east. We have more than enough out in Alberta.

 

If you are living in Canada and the US and you have a beef with the international policies of Canada or the US then ..... get the hell out of town.

 

I have traveled all over the world and frankly I have no more interest to go anywhere other then the Canada or the US. There is an abundance of natural beauty here.

 

Asia ... I have never felt safe there.

 

Europe ... mother of civilization crap, snobs just because they feel entitled due to their long history but I really don't give a crap.

 

Before anyone point it out ... I know my theory is full of crap and there are lots of problems with it. But its just the simple ramblings from a simple guy.

 

Flame on.

post #43 of 69
My Ping Pal is a Karsten. My new Ping K15 is of foreign manufacture.

I would pay extra for US made club as well if it is the club for me. Sometimes the import is the only one that works for your specific game. This is a moral dilema for many patriotic golfers.

As an example...I play a vintage Les Paul Custom guitar worth around 15k. Still one of the best old or new. I can put it away and replace it with a Chinese copy that plays just as well for 1200 dollars. A new replacement Gibson would cost me 5000 dollars.

The other delima....How much MORE is the US product? Would I pay 20 30 even 100 dollars more for a US made golf club? Sure I would. The fact is based on the above example is that the Chinese are manufacturing top shelf quality in many areas of specific manufacture. Clubs is one of them. Some of their violins are surpassing the quality of those built in the 1700s!!

I wish things were different. But they are not. Best not let it get our blood pressures too high. The world has changed.
post #44 of 69

Just take a look at your standard road construction crew as you drive by and you'll see why we outsource manufacturing.  Unions have destroyed the labor force in this country with their unrealistic demands and hostile attitudes towards employers.  Average road construction crew usually has double the number of workers required that all stand or sit around and watch the others work, oh and let's not forget the two girls that hold a SLOW/STOP sign.

 

Unions played an important role early on in this country to ensure worker safety.  At this point, they are one step below organized crime.  If you want to see manufacturing come back to this country, reduce the power unions have to only ensure work place safety and employee abuse.

post #45 of 69

I deal with China manufactures and there delegations when they come, we host about 6 a year, with up to 200 people from differant factorys as well as the gov. What most do not know is there are only a few factory’s that produce Golf equipment. So what you find is TM, Callaway, Ping all could be produced right next to each other in the same factory at the same time.

 

Also one reason you see knockoffs on the shelf the same time you see a new model from the above brands.

This goes on with just about everything you buy that is made in China.

post #46 of 69

I have a 1985 edition of the Golfworks Golf Club Identification and Price Guide, written by Tom Wishon. It is an amazing, nostalgic read of the history and products of over 40 golf club manufacturers that existed in 1985.With the exception of Daiwa and Yamaha, not a single one had product manufactured overseas. Some great-looking forged blades here! An amazing read, and sad to see all those great trend-setting brands disappear or just become a logo to stamp onto a Chinese casting.

post #47 of 69

The average person here knows and appreciates what a well made product looks like. If we get off our butts and start making them, we can sell these items to China and the rest of the world.

 

Chinese like well made American products.

 

We like inexpensive daily use items.

 

There are lots of empty containers going back to China, it's up to us to fill them.

 

Individual Europeans and Americans can make lots more money in the global economy.

post #48 of 69

Right now...drivers can't be made in the USA and be affordable. Putters and Irons can, but are still expensive.  If you are swinging something Titanium there is about a 99.9% chance it was made overseas.

 

I am actually having this same debate with our new putter design.  I just started getting quotes for a 1 piece CNC milled putter versus a 2 piece (cast body & cnc milled face) over in China. I goal is clearly to have ti 100% made and assembled in the USA.

post #49 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by BombTechGolf View Post

Right now...drivers can't be made in the USA and be affordable. Putters and Irons can, but are still expensive.  If you are swinging something Titanium there is about a 99.9% chance it was made overseas.

I am actually having this same debate with our new putter design.  I just started getting quotes for a 1 piece CNC milled putter versus a 2 piece (cast body & cnc milled face) over in China. I goal is clearly to have ti 100% made and assembled in the USA.

Heavy industries have moved out of the states for environmental reasons. Large companies did not either have the financial resources nor did they have the will to make the changes needed to comply with sudden and large changes in the EPA mandates in the past. a4_sad.gif

This is why you need to cast or forge in other countries.

The idea of a CNC milled/ hand finished product, like your putter, and made in America is a nice example of the types of things we can do in the states. a1_smile.gif
post #50 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

Just take a look at your standard road construction crew as you drive by and you'll see why we outsource manufacturing.  Unions have destroyed the labor force in this country with their unrealistic demands and hostile attitudes towards employers.  Average road construction crew usually has double the number of workers required that all stand or sit around and watch the others work, oh and let's not forget the two girls that hold a SLOW/STOP sign.

Unions played an important role early on in this country to ensure worker safety.  At this point, they are one step below organized crime.  If you want to see manufacturing come back to this country, reduce the power unions have to only ensure work place safety and employee abuse.
If all the workers are standing or sitting around, who are they watching perform the work? Do the unions hire non union workers to actually work while the union hands mill about? The last line in your rant actually states that unions should ensure safety and employee abuses. Why would people pay dues to an organization that abuses them?

Just kidding. It's obvious what you meant but please do not paint all unions and their members with the same brush. Here in Texas the unions are not nearly as powerful as those up north. My local has very cordial relationship with my employer and they both ensure safe work practices and neither tolerate hostile work environments. As far as over staffing is concerned, we are grossly under staffed due to workforce attrition. I know my situation is in the minority but it's unfair to label all unions as borderline criminal and guilty of strong arming employers. Neither unions nor corporations are completely innocent. The vast majority of corporations place profits over people and they wouldn't be in business long the they swapped the two.
post #51 of 69

Id say that UAW has ruined it for every other labor union and given them all a bad name.  They are the ones who have been unrealistic.  Most unions are actually very realistic and only want whats fair for the workers.  Anyone who thinks unions are a bad thing doesnt understand the history of organized labor in this country and just how bad factories used to be.  If it werent for unions, things like the weekend, vacation days, fair pay and benefits wouldnt exist.

The reason why jobs like this have left American is because of simple corporate greed and capitalism.  Companies can make more money by producing their goods in places like China and Mexico; where pay and benefits arent what they are in America.  We all want products that are made in the USA but most of us arent willing to accept the reality of making that happen.  We all want to make $30K+ a year and have great benefits but still want products that a cheap.  Thats not reality and most people would probably be shocked if they knew the kind of working conditions that exist in many Chinese factories.

post #52 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan the Man View Post


If all the workers are standing or sitting around, who are they watching perform the work? Do the unions hire non union workers to actually work while the union hands mill about? The last line in your rant actually states that unions should ensure safety and employee abuses. Why would people pay dues to an organization that abuses them?

Just kidding. It's obvious what you meant but please do not paint all unions and their members with the same brush. Here in Texas the unions are not nearly as powerful as those up north. My local has very cordial relationship with my employer and they both ensure safe work practices and neither tolerate hostile work environments. As far as over staffing is concerned, we are grossly under staffed due to workforce attrition. I know my situation is in the minority but it's unfair to label all unions as borderline criminal and guilty of strong arming employers. Neither unions nor corporations are completely innocent. The vast majority of corporations place profits over people and they wouldn't be in business long the they swapped the two.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer View Post
 

Id say that UAW has ruined it for every other labor union and given them all a bad name.  They are the ones who have been unrealistic.  Most unions are actually very realistic and only want whats fair for the workers.  Anyone who thinks unions are a bad thing doesnt understand the history of organized labor in this country and just how bad factories used to be.  If it werent for unions, things like the weekend, vacation days, fair pay and benefits wouldnt exist.

The reason why jobs like this have left American is because of simple corporate greed and capitalism.  Companies can make more money by producing their goods in places like China and Mexico; where pay and benefits arent what they are in America.  We all want products that are made in the USA but most of us arent willing to accept the reality of making that happen.  We all want to make $30K+ a year and have great benefits but still want products that a cheap.  Thats not reality and most people would probably be shocked if they knew the kind of working conditions that exist in many Chinese factories.

There are a lot of unions hurting American businesses and taxpayers.  We have teachers in our town that sit in a room all day and do nothing but surf the web and collect a paycheck because they've been deemed unqualified to teach but because they achieved tenure, thanks to their union, they can't be fired. 

 

At local tradeshows and expo's, unions require venues to mandate the use of "union only" labor for any booth, electrical and computer setup at the rate of $150 per hour per person.   Their bully tactics at these shows has cost the city and businesses a substantial amount of money because the costs for doing a trade show in NY are double compared to non-union states.

 

In areas where worker safety is an issue, I think they provide an important service but in most other areas they are a deterrent to business.

post #53 of 69

I went to a presentation this morning sponsored by APICS (American Purchasing & Inventory Control Society). The presenter talked about St. Louis regional manufacturing and logistics capabilities.

 

He mentioned global labor costs in one of his slides. He said that wage convergence (a tightening of the gap between low and high wages) was making USA sites more competitive.

  • 1992: USA mfg labor costs 22x those of China.
  • 2012: USA mfg labor cost 4x those of China.

 

Also, China is experiencing spot labor shortages: too many people with skill A, too few with skill B. When I went to the GolfSmith school in 2012, marketing director Mark Masters had just returned from China. He was having to switch steel foundries for making Maltby line clubheads because his previous manufacturer had to shut down. The foundry employed a lot of poor farmers from northern China. They had worked there for several years, and most had decided to go home and start small businesses in their local villages. Also, local Chinese "walked across the street" to other factories for an extra $1 a day. The foundry couldn't staff a work shift any more.

 

As a result of the Chinese economic and manufacturing boom, Chinese land and plant costs in Shanghai area have skyrocketed. Why not move inland? Because the valley "over the mountains" doesn't have the power or transportation links to support factories.

 

Getting factory space in Shanghai costs $17 a square foot; in St. Louis, $4 a square foot.

 

Two years ago at a golf expo, one of the club reps said he thought club component manufacturing could return to the USA if the club maker departed Arizona and California. In those two states, the taxes and wages required for workers are much higher than in the Midwest. Only trouble, the outdoor club testing season is a lot shorter in Pittsburgh than in San Diego.

 

We'll see what happens. In the meantime, check to origin tags on the clubs you buy. Mexico (once a big golf equipment player) and Vietnam are getting into the mix more recently. Also, be aware that Taiwan and mainland China are separate countries.

post #54 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUTiger View Post
 

I went to a presentation this morning sponsored by APICS (American Purchasing & Inventory Control Society). The presenter talked about St. Louis regional manufacturing and logistics capabilities.

 

He mentioned global labor costs in one of his slides. He said that wage convergence (a tightening of the gap between low and high wages) was making USA sites more competitive.

  • 1992: USA mfg labor costs 22x those of China.
  • 2012: USA mfg labor cost 4x those of China.

 

Also, China is experiencing spot labor shortages: too many people with skill A, too few with skill B. When I went to the GolfSmith school in 2012, marketing director Mark Masters had just returned from China. He was having to switch steel foundries for making Maltby line clubheads because his previous manufacturer had to shut down. The foundry employed a lot of poor farmers from northern China. They had worked there for several years, and most had decided to go home and start small businesses in their local villages. Also, local Chinese "walked across the street" to other factories for an extra $1 a day. The foundry couldn't staff a work shift any more.

 

As a result of the Chinese economic and manufacturing boom, Chinese land and plant costs in Shanghai area have skyrocketed. Why not move inland? Because the valley "over the mountains" doesn't have the power or transportation links to support factories.

 

Getting factory space in Shanghai costs $17 a square foot; in St. Louis, $4 a square foot.

 

Two years ago at a golf expo, one of the club reps said he thought club component manufacturing could return to the USA if the club maker departed Arizona and California. In those two states, the taxes and wages required for workers are much higher than in the Midwest. Only trouble, the outdoor club testing season is a lot shorter in Pittsburgh than in San Diego.

 

We'll see what happens. In the meantime, check to origin tags on the clubs you buy. Mexico (once a big golf equipment player) and Vietnam are getting into the mix more recently. Also, be aware that Taiwan and mainland China are separate countries.

I have read similar reports in other industries.  China, like Japan and the USA are beginning to experience their own labor issues and increases in manufacturing costs.  I remember when Japan was considered cheap labor and today they even outsource to China.

 

Mexico is giving China some competition as is India.  We'll see more third world countries get involved as the costs from China rise and businesses seek cheaper alternatives.

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