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"Deep" Hands Explained - Page 3

post #37 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

What's the happy medium between depth and height at p4? Obviously you can go back to shallow and too steep but you can also go back deep and too flat, right? Is it essentially left arm across the upper chest and over the shoulder like Tiger is at p4 here? 10-11 seconds in.



You could be half blind and realize Tiger is much steeper than Fowler. But does that mean Fowler is deeper?

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post #38 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by Stretch View Post
According to the S&T book, from the DTL view, your hands should pass roughly through the base to the middle of your right bicep on the backswing. So you're probably in pretty good shape.
That answers my above question then. If that's correct, then Tiger is slightly too steep in the video above.
post #39 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
What's the happy medium between depth and height at p4?
Orthodox S&T would be left arm parallel to the shoulder line, right elbow still on the rib cage and hands about four to six inches behind the right shoulder.



The intermediate position is actually on the cover of the book.

post #40 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Is it very important that the hands get deep before they get high?

I've always got my hands deep but I didn't push back, around and then up. I just pushed my hands more out, up and then back.
post #41 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
I would say that the pictures below demonstrate where you want the hands to go fairly well.



At P2, the hands and clubhead should be somewhere over your zipper, you do not want air between the hips and hands and that point.

As you progress fro P3 to P4, you want the hands to pass through the bicep, or base of your bicep on the right arm. A position too far forward would be if the hands passed through the middle of your chest.
Lots of confusion, Zeph saying the base of the bicep, others saying the top. I'm guessing it really doesn't matter that much. Anywhere in that vicinity.
post #42 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Is it very important that the hands get deep before they get high?

I've always got my hands deep but I didn't push back, around and then up. I just pushed my hands more out, up and then back.
The hands start moving up right away when you start turning because the right elbow starts folding and right shoulder moves up.

At the initial takeaway, three things happen to the hands:

- They move back
- They move in
- They move up

All of this happens at the same time, progressing more and more until they stop together. You should not move them deep first, then up. Get the right elbow to start bending right away. Not excessively so it reach 90º prematurely though.

Look at some down the line videos of Charlie Wi and you'll see.
Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Lots of confusion, Zeph saying the base of the bicep, others saying the top. I'm guessing it really doesn't matter that much. Anywhere in that vicinity.
I wouldn't call it "lots of confusion" though.

Somewhere on your bicep, but more toward the base than the top. That's what M&A said anyways, and what I see on every swing with nice deep hands.

Now you mention it, I started wondering what was the base and what was the top. Never thought about it, but I took "base" for being the part closest to your hand, but it might be the other way around. To avoid confusion, I'll call it the lower part of your upper arm, close to the elbow.
post #43 of 120
Thread Starter 

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Is it very important that the hands get deep before they get high?
Zeph says it below, but they happen at the same rate. IN, back, and UP.

On an arc.

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Lots of confusion, Zeph saying the base of the bicep, others saying the top. I'm guessing it really doesn't matter that much. Anywhere in that vicinity.
Base of the bicep to the middle. I don't know who has said the top. The further up on the bicep you go the more upright your swing plane.

Jack Nicklaus took his hands back pretty deep, THEN lifted, so he's an example of someone who did it in two parts. Doesn't mean it will work for you (and it doesn't mean it can't, either).

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Now you mention it, I started wondering what was the base and what was the top. Never thought about it, but I took "base" for being the part closest to your hand, but it might be the other way around. To avoid confusion, I'll call it the lower part of your upper arm, close to the elbow.
That's the base, yes. Just above the elbow. Away from the armpit.
post #44 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Zeph or Iacas, would you say Charlie at p4 here is above the middle of the bicep? Looks like it to me anyways. But would you say he's close enough? Oh and at P3 is the ideal hand position more or less where Charlie is? Directly below the right elbow?

Looks like he pulls this one ever so slightly. Might just be the camera angle.



Thanks for all the responses, I'm seeing improvement in the first day. This is what I posted in a different thread http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...ight=push+fade which was pretty relevant to deep hands.

I've been trying to make my understanding of the ball flights 2nd nature. So thank you for clarifying. Today at the range I worked on getting my hands very deep early and to start with I was hitting high push fades (i loved the the high trajectory) to start with. Then I realized I was just slightly open to the swing path. So I started closing the face at address with a stronger left hand grip. This fixed the fade part and I was hitting some good push draws but they weren't very consistent. Some were 30-40y straight and pull hooks, that still went 220+. I was getting a lot better at drawing it it seemed like to the point where I was hooking it. My hands must have been getting even deeper at that point because once I switched back to a neutral grip and square clubface, the hooks and pulls were gone (due to the face not being so shut to prevent that push fade/slice) and I was finally hitting a high push draw. Sometimes I would notice myself thinking about getting so deep I'd forget to get steep enough and I started hitting 200y push draw pop ups (probably due to being too far inside?). The ball flight was easily 30y higher than those high push draws I was loving so much.

At that point it had been about 50 balls with the driver and 150 total so my hands were beat. Can't wait to put in some more work on this. The takeaway still feels awkard but at least I can hit the shot I've been looking for with it.
post #45 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Also curious about the difference between driver and wedge. The wedge should be steeper and less deep than the driver because the club is shorter, right?

Or is simply just less deep not necessarily any steeper?
post #46 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Zeph or Iacas, would you say Charlie at p4 here is above the middle of the bicep? Looks like it to me anyways. But would you say he's close enough? Oh and at P3 is the ideal hand position more or less where Charlie is? Directly below the right elbow?


At P3, or just past it, the hands pass through the base of the bicep, or elbow. From P3 to P4, the hands move to an elevated plane because the elbow keeps folding to 90º. This is why the hands get higher at that point and on the downswing pass more through the middle of his bicep.

A slightly different camera setup can affect how it looks too. But if done properly, it should look very much like Charlie here.
Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Looks like he pulls this one ever so slightly. Might just be the camera angle.
Looks like a draw to me, those things are difficult to see through a camera. A pull is a result of a closed clubface anyways, so it's not got anything to do with the swingpath.
post #47 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

True. it just looked like his divot was pointing left of his target line. He does look like he's set up pretty square.

Anyways, thank you for the clarification. My hands pass through the base of the bicep slightly before p3. My p3 position is in the middle of the bicep and I can't seem to get it any lower than that, but my p4 position never reaches higher than Charlies in that picture.

I've literally just been walking back and forth between the mirror and computer these past few days. haha
post #48 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
True. it just looked like his divot was pointing left of his target line. He does look like he's set up pretty square.
That's because we swing in an arc. With a square swingpath, or slightly in-to-out, you will still get a divot just with a hint of left in it. The clubhead hits the ball, reach the apex of the arc, and then starts turning back to the inside, it never moves in a straight line through the ball.

Clubhead moves out all the way from the top to the apex. It hits the apex, then starts moving in again.
post #49 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
That's because we swing in an arc. With a square swingpath, or slightly in-to-out, you will still get a divot just with a hint of left in it. The clubhead hits the ball, reach the apex of the arc, and then starts turning back to the inside, it never moves in a straight line through the ball.

Clubhead moves out all the way from the top to the apex. It hits the apex, then starts moving in again.
Good to know. I thought my divots going about 5-10y left of target were just out to in swings.
post #50 of 120
Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Good to know. I thought my divots going about 5-10y left of target were just out to in swings.
Not necessarily. But they are likely an indication that you are hitting the ball on the front side of the arc that Zeph mentions (where the club head is now traveling to the inside again) rather than on the back side, which is what you need to hit a push draw.
post #51 of 120
Thread Starter 

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Zeph or Iacas, would you say Charlie at p4 here is above the middle of the bicep?
At P4 yes, but that's appropriate. The hands will be roughly on the same plane as the shoulders at P4, and since the top of your arm is attached to your shoulder....

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Oh and at P3 is the ideal hand position more or less where Charlie is?
For a one-plane swing, yes.

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
Also curious about the difference between driver and wedge. The wedge should be steeper and less deep than the driver because the club is shorter, right?
I answered this already didn't I? Yes. The plane is steeper with a wedge. Relative to parts of your body you still pass the same checkpoints, but the checkpoints are oriented in a steeper plane (because you're bent over more).

Originally Posted by MJP View Post
True. it just looked like his divot was pointing left of his target line. He does look like he's set up pretty square.
The green is well to the left in this image. He didn't pull it.

Deep Hands Drill
post #52 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Thanks for the drill Eric. Went to the gym at lunch and worked on this.

One question on the plane for wedge vs. driver: Is the plane steeper because of the starting point at set up or am I taking the driver to a lower point at the top? My hands for the wedge are almost straight down at set up. My hands for the driver are a little further out from my body, maybe 1/2 hand width. If I take them back to the same point, the wedge path would be a bit steeper.

Thanks in advance.
post #53 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
Thanks for the drill Eric. Went to the gym at lunch and worked on this.

One question on the plane for wedge vs. driver: Is the plane steeper because of the starting point at set up or am I taking the driver to a lower point at the top? My hands for the wedge are almost straight down at set up. My hands for the driver are a little further out from my body, maybe 1/2 hand width. If I take them back to the same point, the wedge path would be a bit steeper.
It is steeper because the wedge is shorter and you are more bent forward. The swingpath angle is determined by the angle of your upper body at address, because we swing at the same inclination to the ground and the arc moves around this angle.

The hands should be more away from your body with a driver than a wedge, it is how you set up to the ball.
I like pictures.


Note that the camera angle is a bit different here, sitting lower, so the angles and checkpoints are a bit off.
post #54 of 120

Re: "Deep" Hands Explained

I finally incorporated this *correctly* into my game the other day and I hit the two best drives of my life. One even went about 260 to carry! It still is weird to feel it that "deep" when it really is more comfortable to do it the right way anyways.
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