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The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing - Page 2

post #19 of 1513
11/2/09 at 7:43am
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Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Who does? A stack and tilt swing doesn't lean towards the target at the top. Aaron may have in those pictures but those pictures were meant to illustrate how the swing should "feel," not how the swing actually works.
Wanted to clarify this a little. Throughout the backswing the golfer does several things progressively (i.e. from their starting position to their finish position). Ideally all of these things are in sync.

Among them, and relating to posture, the golfer:

a) extends his back (i.e. he "stands up" - the spine extends from the flexed position it is at address)
b) tilts his spine to his left (like you're trying to scratch your left knee with your left hand by bending left
c) turns 80 to 100 degrees or so

Because of A and C, that "left tilt" in B actually ends up being towards the ball, not towards the target. That'd be a "backwards" lean since your back faces the target at the top of the backswing.

Also, your head does not moves towards the ball because the spine extension counters the left tilt.

So to be clear, I'll bold this section: the left tilt that S&Ters talk about on the takeaway/backswing is not towards the target.
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post #20 of 1513
11/2/09 at 9:45am

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

In my usual foursome, occasionally one of us won't be able to play. Sometimes we'll invite one of the regulars we know from the casino we work at to be our 4th... or "1st" I should say since everytime we do this, they turn out to be near-scratch golfers.
Anyway, a couple weeks ago the guy we brought out uses the Stack and Tilt method and his game was unbelievable (to us), shooting a 37 on the front and a 36 on the back. He caddies at various private courses in the area so we knew he'd be skilled beforehand, but the power and consistency of his swing was pretty amazing. So I've come to take seriously my previous considerations to buy the Stack and Tilt DVD training series.
Using the free info I could find online about how to execute this swing, I tried doing it a few rounds this season and would hit a really nice shot every now and then but obvioulsly I'm still missing something. I've only been golfing regularly for 2 1/2 years now and I think I read somewhere that Stack and Tilt is more for advanced players... beginners/amateurs might have problems with it. Is that right? How much more do you think the DVDs can tell you than the free videos and articles online? Is it worth the money?
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post #21 of 1513
11/2/09 at 1:08pm
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Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by pat_bateman25 View Post
I've only been golfing regularly for 2 1/2 years now and I think I read somewhere that Stack and Tilt is more for advanced players... beginners/amateurs might have problems with it. Is that right? How much more do you think the DVDs can tell you than the free videos and articles online? Is it worth the money?
I think the videos are worth the money. Not really the point of this thread, but worth the money. You can get them on eBay or whatever for $60 or so, too.

Oh, and Stack and Tilt is just as much for beginners as advanced players... It's one of the fastest ways I've seen to take an average golfer and make them decent. My wife is awfully close to breaking 100 already and she's only played a few times and taken a few lessons.
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post #22 of 1513
11/2/09 at 2:45pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

I have reviewed countless videos of this type of swing. Did you notice an immediate change in the positive or was it something that had to be worked on for a long period to acheive better ball striking? This question is geared more for a more advanced golfer. My ball striking and consistency has been off this golf season.
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post #23 of 1513
11/2/09 at 3:19pm
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Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by Lemay427 View Post
I have reviewed countless videos of this type of swing. Did you notice an immediate change in the positive or was it something that had to be worked on for a long period to acheive better ball striking?
A bit of both. After all, I'd kind of gotten my old swing down. It had a lot of compensations and mid-swing adjustments, but through repetition I'd gotten them down.

I saw immediate results with respect to feeling better about the swing. I saw immediate results with some of the swing positions and the crispness of contact.

But I also some some really wonky shots, too, because I didn't have it down yet and when something went wrong I didn't know how to adjust or compensate in the new pattern.

I imagine it's the same with any swing change one might undertake.
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post #24 of 1513
11/2/09 at 4:05pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Oh no! He switched over! It funny to watch the development of your opinion on this Iacas. 'bet he deletes this'

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I've not really experimented with the "stacked swing" per se yet - I'll wait for the fad to pass and see if it's still being taught. After all, who's the highest ranked player using it? It ain't any of the top five or so.

I've seen it said in other places that people trying this "new swing" and proclaiming it to be super-wonderful may simply be short-circuiting their brain and kind of getting rid of a lot of their old bad habits.

To those people, I wonder if they'll still be proclaiming this to be the be-all, end-all swing in three months after their old habits (and some new ones) have started to come back.

Now, that's pretty much what I understand to be common of S&T: it's great for the irons, but for hybrids and particularly the longer fairway woods and drivers, it's tough to get elevation and to avoid the big old hooks. It's tough to hit some kinds of shots (like the downhill lie) because the swing is so flat... that sort of stuff.

Temporarly adopting Stack and Tilt, I posit, is something like that: it forces you to concentrate more on simply getting the clubhead back to the ball since you're swinging in an unusual way. The extra concentration is why you sometimes perform better, not necessarily because the swing is that much better... for example, a few weeks ago I had a 135 yard shot with my ball in the middle of a very thin divot. About 1/4 of the ball was beneath the ground, so I had to strike down on the ball and make VERY crisp contact. It forced me to concentrate really hard and I produced one of my best shots (and swings) of the day. Anyway, I think S&T is still a bit like that...


I'm not a fan of stack and tilt, but it's not a reverse pivot.

Also, more generally, I've been told it was originally designed for beginners because if you stay quite centered it's easier to deliver the club back to the ball fairly consistently. My wife's learning it with my instructor, and it had a great impact very quickly. She's not going to ever (likely) be any better than a bogey golfer or anything like that, so a K.I.S.S. approach to golf will work for her, and S&T is fairly KISS and tends to deliver the club to the ball - not fat or thin - fairly easily.

I've never cared for the stack-and-tilt swing. I don't like the lower trajectory, I don't like hitting draws, and everything I've seen says there are problems with S&T and the driver. A few of the S&T guys on Tour (Aaron Baddeley for one) are moving away from S&T.
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post #25 of 1513
11/2/09 at 5:09pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by Avidgolfer999 View Post
Oh no! He switched over!
Sure, for the most part I have. You realize you quoted me from 2007, right?

Originally Posted by Avidgolfer999 View Post
'bet he deletes this'
I would because it's largely off-topic and troll-y, but I think I can salvage some value by responding to myself. So here goes.

Remember, this post is from 2007...

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I've not really experimented with the "stacked swing" per se yet - I'll wait for the fad to pass and see if it's still being taught. After all, who's the highest ranked player using it? It ain't any of the top five or so.
It's still being taught. And the top five golfers in the world would probably still be the top five golfers in the world if you made them swing like Jeev Milkha Singh or something. Andy and Mike teach a lot of players on Tour - more than possibly anyone else. So there's a little comfort in numbers.

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I've seen it said in other places that people trying this "new swing" and proclaiming it to be super-wonderful may simply be short-circuiting their brain and kind of getting rid of a lot of their old bad habits.
I still think that's largely true for people who try to "adopt" a swing change on the range. It worked for Johnny Miller at the U.S. Open at Oakmont, after all. He short-circuited his brain by opening his stance way up that day.

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
To those people, I wonder if they'll still be proclaiming this to be the be-all, end-all swing in three months after their old habits (and some new ones) have started to come back.
And lot of people, without proper instruction, gave up on the swing. I sought proper instruction.

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Now, that's pretty much what I understand to be common of S&T: it's great for the irons, but for hybrids and particularly the longer fairway woods and drivers, it's tough to get elevation and to avoid the big old hooks.
I was wrong, or rather, what I read from people was wrong.

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
It's tough to hit some kinds of shots (like the downhill lie) because the swing is so flat... that sort of stuff.
Also wrong.

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I'm not a fan of stack and tilt, but it's not a reverse pivot.
This quote comes from June of this year, when I was still relatively new in my education. It's a bit disingenous how you cobbled together quotes from several different years as one.

Anyway, change the first part now that I know more and have an education. The second part remains true. And my instructor did a good job of easing me into things.

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Also, more generally, I've been told it was originally designed for beginners because if you stay quite centered it's easier to deliver the club back to the ball fairly consistently.
Also true. But, duh, the same idea applies to skilled golfers too.

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
My wife's learning it with my instructor, and it had a great impact very quickly. She's not going to ever (likely) be any better than a bogey golfer or anything like that, so a K.I.S.S. approach to golf will work for her, and S&T is fairly KISS and tends to deliver the club to the ball - not fat or thin - fairly easily.
Also true.

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I've never cared for the stack-and-tilt swing.
Because my opinion was based on misconceptions like:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I don't like the lower trajectory, I don't like hitting draws, and everything I've seen says there are problems with S&T and the driver. A few of the S&T guys on Tour (Aaron Baddeley for one) are moving away from S&T.
Like all of those things. And apparently Aaron and Mike Weir never really did things properly anyway. Weir was better, but Aaron never could get things right. Even still, both improved their world ranking dramatically, and where's Aaron been since leaving...? His only two wins so far were when he was (quasi-)S&T.
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post #26 of 1513
11/2/09 at 7:46pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

I wasn't trying to suggest that you were in some way contradicting yourself at any point and I realized that those were really old post. I just found it funny how you almost did a 180 with your opinion of stack and tilt.

It is good to see you respond to all of that stuff though years later.
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post #27 of 1513
11/2/09 at 7:49pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

One thing I like about S&T is the way your head stays in the same spot throughout the swing. Moving after impact is fine, but up to that point the head stays firmly focused on the ball, and that makes sense to me. I don't have much of an understanding about S&T but again it seems to make sense to me to center your head over the ball and maintain that position as you swing.

Are these assumptions correct in S&T methodology?

If so how does this work with the driver? With an iron it's easy to get over the ball (much like putting), but the driver is so long that seems awkward. In the video where Sergio was hitting driver it did look like he was doing a great job of holding his head firmly in the same position, but the camera angle was face on and it was hard to tell his head position relative to the ball...
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post #28 of 1513
11/2/09 at 8:35pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by Chief Broom View Post
One thing I like about S&T is the way your head stays in the same spot throughout the swing. Moving after impact is fine, but up to that point the head stays firmly focused on the ball, and that makes sense to me. I don't have much of an understanding about S&T but again it seems to make sense to me to center your head over the ball and maintain that position as you swing.
That is why many think Arnold Palmer's swing (pre-1965) was an early version of the stack and tilt. Palmer always talked about keeping the head absolutely still and his weight centered over the ball at the top of his backswing. If you get a chance to check out film of his swing back then, you'll see evidence of this.
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post #29 of 1513
11/2/09 at 8:41pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

I'm still a first-season noob so my opinion on the golf swing is probably worth less than the time spent to read it, but...

From what I can see/read, my budding swing is a good bit stack and tilt-y. In fact, one of the first setup fixes that my pro made was pointing out that I had way too much weight forward. I tried to argue with it for a while because subjectively, what he was describing as 'Balanced' felt way back on my left leg (Lefty) to me.

Little bit of introspection turned up the why: I have a trashed left knee. On a normal day standing around, I probably keep about 90% of my weight on my right leg. Of COURSE balanced is going to feel off-kilter.

I tend toward a draw, and my usual error WAS a dead pull or a pull hook. Have things much straighter, now, though the tendency to close the clubface can creep back in if I'm not vigilant. Another tendency that I have to adjust almost every time I step up to the ball is that I tend to open my hips a touch.

These days my main problems are thin shots. That, and the occasional big ballooning slice with my driver -- Though I'm starting to attribute that to having a 45g shaft and a 100mph swing, heh.

More relevantly: I'm certainly interested in pursuing a S&T angle, as my body seems to set up that way naturally -- 'Traditional' feels a bit more awkward, though I don't know how much of that is unfamiliarity or bad back leg or what. I don't think there are any local instructors, though, and I'm not comfortable trying to make swing changes from a DVD, so... *shrug*
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post #30 of 1513
11/3/09 at 1:21am
Thread Starter 

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by Chief Broom View Post
Are these assumptions correct in S&T methodology?
Pretty much. The combination of three things you do on the backswing with your back keep your head in the same spot. If it moves, you've done them at different rates or failed to do something.

Originally Posted by Chief Broom View Post
If so how does this work with the driver? With an iron it's easy to get over the ball (much like putting), but the driver is so long that seems awkward. In the video where Sergio was hitting driver it did look like he was doing a great job of holding his head firmly in the same position, but the camera angle was face on and it was hard to tell his head position relative to the ball...
Not sure I understand the problem. Your left armpit is roughly the low spot of your swing. You tee the ball forward in your stance like normal and catch it just about on the flat spot or just as the club starts ascending. The head's not "on" the ball it's behind it - where it was at address.
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post #31 of 1513
11/3/09 at 2:17pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Following up on my earlier comment, here is a picture of Palmer at the top of his backswing:
Attachment 2093
LL
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post #32 of 1513
11/3/09 at 9:45pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson View Post
Following up on my earlier comment, here is a picture of Palmer at the top of his backswing:
Attachment 2093
Great picture - have used it a bunch myself...and Arnie was DEFINITELY stacked!

Dave
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post #33 of 1513
11/3/09 at 9:55pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Oh, and Stack and Tilt is just as much for beginners as advanced players... It's one of the fastest ways I've seen to take an average golfer and make them decent. My wife is awfully close to breaking 100 already and she's only played a few times and taken a few lessons.
Even MORE important for beginners than advanced players I would say. Poorer players and beginners don't have a knack yet for "finding" their way back to the ground in front of the ball and impact. More advanced players have figured out ways to do this even if they aren't the most efficient methods available. All levels of player benefit and improve but the fundamentals taught in SnT are the things that the poorest players do the worst job of executing.
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post #34 of 1513
11/3/09 at 9:59pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson View Post
Following up on my earlier comment, here is a picture of Palmer at the top of his backswing:
Attachment 2093
Spine tilted back towards the target, looks pretty stacked to me.

What about this picture of Arnold Palmer though, his left heel is coming off the ground:
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/790...378189685BF7CA

Arnold's basics:
http://www.break80golf.com/golf_swin...tip-swing.html
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post #35 of 1513
11/3/09 at 10:09pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by SQ Bimmer View Post
What about this picture of Arnold Palmer though, his left heel is coming off the ground:
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/790...378189685BF7CA
That picture was taken well after his mid-1960s swing change, when he reduced his stack and tilt move to a degree in an effort to shorten his backswing.
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post #36 of 1513
11/3/09 at 10:14pm

Re: The Stack and Tilt Pattern

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson View Post
Originally Posted by SQ Bimmer View Post
What about this picture of Arnold Palmer though, his left heel is coming off the ground:
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/790...378189685BF7CA
That picture was taken well after his mid-1960s swing change, when he reduced his stack and tilt move to a degree in an effort to shorten his backswing.
That's what I was thinking, since he is clearly older in the picture. I was also thinking maybe S&T was a little stressful on his body?
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