or Connect
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Clubhouse › Tour Talk › Why do people revere Ben Hogan so?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Why do people revere Ben Hogan so? - Page 4

post #55 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty View Post

Bizarre how one could hold such an "opinion".
You're suggesting that Woods or Nicklaus, to name two, are "not even close".
On what grounds? By what standards?
I would suggest that one might be making an argument to say that Hogan may well be up in the top 5 of all time, but to say he is unquestionably at the top of the tree is not a sustainable argument. It's simply wrong. And that is not a matter of opinion.

Hogan had a bad attitude and was disrespectful toward other golfers. Back in his peak the PGA tour wasn't as organized and evolved as it is today. Hogan used to force tournaments to give him his own selected tee times. He didn't buy into the early/late system used today. I've seen quotes from him saying he only tees off at 10am. Arrogant. Plus I believe it was the 1960 Masters when he saw Arnold Palmer and said in a demeaning fashion "how did this guy qualify to play here?" Well Palmer had already won the 1958 Masters thus earning him exemptions into future Masters.
post #56 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristphoto View Post


Hogan had a bad attitude and was disrespectful toward other golfers. Back in his peak the PGA tour wasn't as organized and evolved as it is today. Hogan used to force tournaments to give him his own selected tee times. He didn't buy into the early/late system used today. I've seen quotes from him saying he only tees off at 10am. Arrogant. Plus I believe it was the 1960 Masters when he saw Arnold Palmer and said in a demeaning fashion "how did this guy qualify to play here?" Well Palmer had already won the 1958 Masters thus earning him exemptions into future Masters.

 

The Hogan comment was from the 1958 Masters.  Palmer had just played in a practice round match with Hogan and Jackie Burke; Plamer played like crap and Hogan made the comment to Snead in the locker room.  Arnie mentioned that comment really fired him up to play his best that week, and he won the tournament.

 

Hogan was his own guy--I don't think anyone would dispute that.  He grew up in a different era:  he was a young adult when the depression started, fought in a world war, taught himself to play golf while caddying for rich folks in Fort Worth.  Hogan famously ran out of money and thought he and his wife would starve, then suddenly he starts winning tournaments.  He worked harder than anyone to be good, and he certainly overcame more challenges.

 

I think it's good to look at the world through Hogan's glasses when evaluating his relationship with Palmer & Nicklaus.  Arnie (apparently) was unaffected by the depression and WWII:  his dad was a club pro in Pennsylvania, so Arnie spent the war years hanging out at the golf course.  During Hogan's recovery period after his accident Palmer was dropping out of Wake Forest--an excellent college which Palmer attended on a golf scholarship.  Nicklaus would have grown up with a silver spoon in his mouth by Hogan's standards:  dad was a wealthy businessman, they had club memberships and Jack spent his time playing multiple sports.  I'm sure Hogan had a resentment for country club kids who could afford to compete as amateurs, which was one of the big yardsticks of accomplishment in the golf world when Hogan was growing up.  It's easy to see how Hogan might have thought himself superior to these guys, given that he'd done it all on his own while enduring so much hardship.

 

Now, that doesn't mean he had to be a dick about it.   But, if you consider the generation gap between those who were adults during the depression and fought in WWII and those who came of age after the war, it's easier to understand Hogan's perspective.

post #57 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristphoto View Post


Hogan had a bad attitude and was disrespectful toward other golfers.

 

Which has nothing to do with his skill.  Nobody could touch Bobby Fischer at chess in his prime, and he was a complete *******.  Compared to Fischer, Hogan was Mr. Friendly.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cristphoto View Post


Back in his peak the PGA tour wasn't as organized and evolved as it is today.

 

 A great many things were different.  That doesn't mean they were disorganized or unevolved.

At least they didn't let TV run the whole thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cristphoto View Post


Hogan used to force tournaments to give him his own selected tee times. 

 

Tiger Woods just lets the TV people do that for him.

post #58 of 86

Chances are, Hogan would have never attained the mystical status that now surrounds him if he had to deal with today's media, internet, and social forums that put a magnifying glass on everything you do in public and private. He was fortunate to play in his era. And he went away when he could no longer compete, so we tend to remember his best years.

post #59 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archie Bunker View Post
 

Chances are, Hogan would have never attained the mystical status that now surrounds him if he had to deal with today's media, internet, and social forums that put a magnifying glass on everything you do in public and private. He was fortunate to play in his era. And he went away when he could no longer compete, so we tend to remember his best years.

^ Most probably true.

I think that one of the reasons why people who never saw him play or were born after he died revere him is that they think it gives them a bit of an old school credibility.

The idea that a person can claim him to be "best ever, no argument" proves that rationality and opinion don't sit well together.

 

One member here used to tag his posts with the cringeworthy "Ben Hogan is my swing instructor" or something similar, as if that was the last word in coolness and credibility.

Another one used to post these slow motion things with loud jazz music that went forever where we were supposed to be looking at goodness knows what while he wore the cap and baggy pants etc. Like Dan, he had some scientific theory he was trying to prove. Ended up proving something else, methinks ;-)

 

I suppose that is what cult figures make us do.....act strangely

post #60 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archie Bunker View Post
 

Chances are, Hogan would have never attained the mystical status that now surrounds him if he had to deal with today's media, internet, and social forums that put a magnifying glass on everything you do in public and private. He was fortunate to play in his era. And he went away when he could no longer compete, so we tend to remember his best years.

 

There is no doubt about this but considering who the media crowns with its undying devotion these days (see: West, Kanye; Kardashian, Kim, etc.) this shouldn't in any way impune Ben or his legacy on the course. If you all want to debate whether you would have liked a man who played the game 60 years ago and whom you never met, you're welcome to, but there really is no debating the greatness of what he did on the course. In some order, it's Hogan, Nicklaus, and Woods as the greatest to play the game in the modern era and trying to prove that one is greater than the other is like trying to prove that chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla.

post #61 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archie Bunker View Post
 

Chances are, Hogan would have never attained the mystical status that now surrounds him if he had to deal with today's media, internet, and social forums that put a magnifying glass on everything you do in public and private. He was fortunate to play in his era. And he went away when he could no longer compete, so we tend to remember his best years.

 

People are born in the eras they're born in.  It has nothing to do with "fortunate".  It makes more sense to say Tiger Woods is fortunate to be born post-PGA-Caucasian-Clause. 

 

Actually, if you want to place pro athletes in general in different eras, all the past ones are unfortunate because the money is so much bigger now.  Hogan's career earnings were something like $332,000.

post #62 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristphoto View Post


Hogan had a bad attitude and was disrespectful toward other golfers. Back in his peak the PGA tour wasn't as organized and evolved as it is today. Hogan used to force tournaments to give him his own selected tee times. He didn't buy into the early/late system used today. I've seen quotes from him saying he only tees off at 10am. Arrogant. Plus I believe it was the 1960 Masters when he saw Arnold Palmer and said in a demeaning fashion "how did this guy qualify to play here?" Well Palmer had already won the 1958 Masters thus earning him exemptions into future Masters.

 

Even granting all that, although as has been pointed out it is not completely accurate, the fact remains that in his day neither fans nor media gave a crap about any of that.  They didn't fantasize about sports stars being their secret best friends.  They admired them for the quality of their play, because they realized that that is really all they know of them.

post #63 of 86
I agree. Hogan was a great player. In today's media world if Hogan would act the same way he would probably be ripped apart. I recall one Hogan story where Hogan only used 13 clubs in a tournament. When asked why he responded that where he planned on hitting the ball he would have no need for the omitted club. This seems a bit arrogant as how could he know the exact tee box positions or any wind that might affect his distance?
post #64 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristphoto View Post

I agree. Hogan was a great player. In today's media world if Hogan would act the same way he would probably be ripped apart. I recall one Hogan story where Hogan only used 13 clubs in a tournament. When asked why he responded that where he planned on hitting the ball he would have no need for the omitted club. This seems a bit arrogant as how could he know the exact tee box positions or any wind that might affect his distance?

I think you're nit picking here, Hogan was an excellent ball striker and prepped for the courses he was going to play.  You have to remember in his early days, he was making his own clubs so we don't really know why or where if any he left a gap.  Phil sometimes doesn't play a driver, and sometimes he bags 2, is that arrogant?

 

BTW, what you call arrogant I consider bravado or mind games.  Is this any different than Tiger claiming to have beat his peers with his "B" game?

post #65 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristphoto View Post
I recall one Hogan story where Hogan only used 13 clubs in a tournament. When asked why he responded that where he planned on hitting the ball he would have no need for the omitted club. This seems a bit arrogant as how could he know the exact tee box positions or any wind that might affect his distance?

 

The quote was, "There are no 7-iron shots at Merion".

 

And he did it so he could carry a 1-iron instead.

 

Yes, that 1-iron.

 

post #66 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
 

 

The quote was, "There are no 7-iron shots at Merion".

 

And he did it so he could carry a 1-iron instead.

 

Yes, that 1-iron.

 

 

That was a US Open if I recall correctly.

post #67 of 86

its just my opinion but I feel like Hogan was the best that's ever played the game considering what he went through.everybody saw tiger win the open on his bad knee.well imagine winning multiple majors in worse pain after almost dying in the car crash.thats what Hogan did.if you look at the wins and records then yes jack and tiger have more but to me theres no doubt Hogan would have smashed them records if not for the war and crash.just a thought on his attitude toward others.his childhood and growing up without have a silver spoon in his mouth I think put a chip on his shoulder.he had to work harder than the others just to survive.i feel to him it was him,his wife and his golf game that he had in his life.as far as I know he had no family around.he was definitely driven to be the best.

post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aflighter View Post
 

its just my opinion but I feel like Hogan was the best that's ever played the game considering what he went through.everybody saw tiger win the open on his bad knee.well imagine winning multiple majors in worse pain after almost dying in the car crash.thats what Hogan did.if you look at the wins and records then yes jack and tiger have more but to me theres no doubt Hogan would have smashed them records if not for the war and crash.just a thought on his attitude toward others.his childhood and growing up without have a silver spoon in his mouth I think put a chip on his shoulder.he had to work harder than the others just to survive.i feel to him it was him,his wife and his golf game that he had in his life.as far as I know he had no family around.he was definitely driven to be the best.

 

You make a good point and I completely agree that Hogan should at least be in that conversation about greatest ever.  Unfortunately Jack wrote him out of the conversation with the connivance of the media when he stated that the only fair way to compare golfers from different eras is performance in the majors.  Given the differences in the number of opportunities HE had compared to guys like Hogan, Snead, Sarazen, Hagen, etc., it would be hard to come up with a LESS FAIR way to compare, particularly when performance in majors is translated into number of wins.

 

Imagine if Tiger made a statement that the only fair way to compare players of different eras is the total number of wins majors, WGCs and Players and that therefore he is declaring himself the best ever?  People would be howling in derision.  Yet Jack got away with essentially that exact thing.  He is the only player EVER to have been considered the best ever based on number of major victories.  And it is a shame that a player like Hogan got slighted when Jack pulled this.

post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 

 

You make a good point and I completely agree that Hogan should at least be in that conversation about greatest ever.  Unfortunately Jack wrote him out of the conversation with the connivance of the media when he stated that the only fair way to compare golfers from different eras is performance in the majors. 

 

You always say this as if Jack simply flipped a switch and other golfers before him became irrelevant.  The fact is that Jack's accomplishments in his own time were so fantastic that he had the power to change the way people thought about measuring golf greatness.  Greatness is measured in the minds of fans, after all.  If Hogan held the same level of power and sway based on his own accomplishment, then he wouldn't have been so easily left out of the conversation.

 

And just to curtail the "you're not getting my point" retorts, I'm not arguing that Jack never changed his yardstick, nor am I saying that Hogan's accomplishments weren't great or that he didn't win at an astonishing rate given his curtailed opportunities.  

post #70 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by k-troop View Post
 

 

You always say this as if Jack simply flipped a switch and other golfers before him became irrelevant.  The fact is that Jack's accomplishments in his own time were so fantastic that he had the power to change the way people thought about measuring golf greatness.  Greatness is measured in the minds of fans, after all.  If Hogan held the same level of power and sway based on his own accomplishment, then he wouldn't have been so easily left out of the conversation.

 

And just to curtail the "you're not getting my point" retorts, I'm not arguing that Jack never changed his yardstick, nor am I saying that Hogan's accomplishments weren't great or that he didn't win at an astonishing rate given his curtailed opportunities.

It's an interesting discussion, imo, it was the combination of Jack's personality, relationship with the media and fantastic accomplishments that allowed him to change metric of what constituted the greatest golfer.

 

Tiger's accomplishments are equal or superior to Jack's and if he were to attempt to change the metric, I doubt he'd have much success.

post #71 of 86

Agree it's an interesting discussion.  And I'd agree that golf greatness at the pinnacle has to include more than accomplishments on the course.  The force of personality (call it character) and public persona (call it relationship with the media) result in some guys leaving an impression on an era.  Bobby Jones did.  Hogan did.  Nicklaus did.  I suspect 20 years from now people will say Woods did, as well.  But I don't want to turn this into another Jack vs. Tiger thread and regardless of how much we currently respect Tiger's game, the test of time is yet to come.

post #72 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

It's an interesting discussion, imo, it was the combination of Jack's personality, relationship with the media and fantastic accomplishments that allowed him to change metric of what constituted the greatest golfer.

Tiger's accomplishments are equal or superior to Jack's and if he were to attempt to change the metric, I doubt he'd have much success.

I guess my point is that Jack didn't change the metric all by himself. We had to agree that he was the greatest, and the reason was primarily his majors total.

And hasn't Tiger changed the metric? We all agree (well the majority on here) that he's now the GOAT, yet Jack still has more majors. So the metric has changed again, and Tiger's achievements have caused it to change.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tour Talk
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Clubhouse › Tour Talk › Why do people revere Ben Hogan so?