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Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

post #1 of 26
12/27/09 at 6:41am
Thread Starter 
Hi guys, I have been practicing S&T for about 2 weeks now on my own. Have not gotten DVD's and book yet. It is on my list next. Just been practicing what I found on this forum and YouTube. Please let me know your thoughts.


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post #2 of 26
12/27/09 at 8:18am

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

just finished watching the dvd set for the S&T swing.

You are making consistently solid ball contact approaching from the inside on the videos shown. You do a good job of starting with more weight forward and then increasing the weight forward throughout the swing. Your balance is great.

some things I noticed.
The ball position is a hair forward relative to the standard ball position shown for the middle iron in the dvd set.
your left knee appears to bow forward initially and then flexes toward the ball. Just flex it forward toward the ball.
Your left shoulder starts turning down, but then starts turning more level at about half way into your backswing. Try to keep the left shoulder turning down instead of around.
At the top of your backswing, you lift your arms up and separate your right arm from your torso.
Try to keep your hands just behind your right shoulder at the top of the backswing. You do a great job of keeping your hands behind (more posterior to) your right shoulder until the very end of the backswing, when you do the lifting move.
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post #3 of 26
12/27/09 at 8:41am

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

this video gets shown quite a bit, because Charlie Wi has the best S&T swing on tour. Notice at the top of the backswing, his hands are behind his right shoulder.




Here is a slow mo video of Mike Bennett's driver swing
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post #4 of 26
12/27/09 at 10:31am

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

IMO, the two biggest benefits of the stack and tilt swing are:

1. It eliminates sway, keeping your center on the ball. This is key to solid ballstriking.

2. It makes the backswing more compact. This is key to consistency.


If you can take these benefits and work them into your own swing, do that. A classic swing is more beautiful in my eyes.

Then again, function is most important. Some who try ST see an improvement immediately. Also, missing to the right will be hard with ST... but you might be met with a nasty pull hook until you groove that big hip turn/switch that gets the club back on plane.

I used stack and tilt for a while. Was great. I ended up working the key benefits of it into my old swing and things got even better
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post #5 of 26
12/27/09 at 2:24pm

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Originally Posted by uttexas View Post
Your left shoulder starts turning down, but then starts turning more level at about half way into your backswing. Try to keep the left shoulder turning down instead of around.
At the top of your backswing, you lift your arms up and separate your right arm from your torso.
Those are the only two things I'd worry about, and they're not actually the problem. They're more results that show an earlier flaw than causes themselves.

The problem is on the takeaway, your first move away from the ball. Your hands move away from your body, the clubhead moves way back to the inside. When the club is parallel to the ground it's a foot behind your rear end and your hands are still on your chest.

That's where you lose your connection between the right armpit and your chest, and that's the cause of the flatter shoulder turn and the separation at the top.

Deep, deep, deep hands, and stop earlier than you think you should.
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post #6 of 26
12/27/09 at 8:57pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Thanks guys. Point taken on the take away. I do see that I take the club head on the inside too early. Thanks iacas. I will consetrate on the hands being behind the shoulder on the top of the back swing.
Any other problem you see? Or is that really the most important?
I think I also have a problem after impact to turn my hands in too early and don't have that streight line towards the target. I know I need to do it, but just can't seem to execute it.
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post #7 of 26
12/27/09 at 9:01pm
Thread Starter 

First video after S&T practice. Thoughts please.

Hi all,
My cousin has been practicing S&T for about 2 weeks as I have and would love to hear some feedback on the swing.


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post #8 of 26
12/27/09 at 9:42pm

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Originally Posted by bpolunin View Post
Thanks guys. Point taken on the take away. I do see that I take the club head on the inside too early. Thanks iacas. I will consetrate on the hands being behind the shoulder on the top of the back swing.
Any other problem you see? Or is that really the most important?
One thing at a time... It's not just at the top too. Get them in quickly. They should pass through your belt buckle or something like that.
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post #9 of 26
12/28/09 at 4:29am
Thread Starter 

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

WOW Eric, you are genius. I went to the range right after reading the replies. Fixed the problem on the takeaway and everything felt so much nicer and smoother. Probably about 75% of the shots after making the change were right on with slight push draw.

One thing I don't understand is, came you elaborate on this statement Eric?
Deep, deep, deep hands, and stop earlier than you think you should.
and
Get them in quickly.
Also, any comments on my cousins swing?
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post #10 of 26
12/28/09 at 2:52pm

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Originally Posted by bpolunin View Post
WOW Eric, you are genius. I went to the range right after reading the replies. Fixed the problem on the takeaway and everything felt so much nicer and smoother. Probably about 75% of the shots after making the change were right on with slight push draw.

One thing I don't understand is, came you elaborate on this statement Eric?

and


Also, any comments on my cousins swing?
I explained deep hands here:
http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30325
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post #11 of 26
12/28/09 at 11:09pm

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

I also noticed a couple things. Your bending your right knee but your not hinging your hips. Basically your not turning your lower body and getting any hip turn, your all arms. That will cause a huge loss in distance. Also your arms are getting to far away from your body. One more thing i would take a note on is pulling your head up. As your swinging with your arms and making contact with the ball it looks as tho your scooping at the ball, as soon as your making contact your throwing your arms out and yanking your head up. I would work on rotation of your hips, keeeping your arms in tight, hitting down on the ball and keeping your head down. Just my 2 cents.
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post #12 of 26
12/29/09 at 4:48pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Originally Posted by Nickynoodles View Post
I also noticed a couple things. Your bending your right knee but your not hinging your hips. Basically your not turning your lower body and getting any hip turn, your all arms. That will cause a huge loss in distance. Also your arms are getting to far away from your body. One more thing i would take a note on is pulling your head up. As your swinging with your arms and making contact with the ball it looks as tho your scooping at the ball, as soon as your making contact your throwing your arms out and yanking your head up. I would work on rotation of your hips, keeeping your arms in tight, hitting down on the ball and keeping your head down. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks Nickynoodles. I see what you mean with the hips. But I don't suffer with distance in my irons. I do suffer in distance with driver. My irons go about 9i-140, 7i-170,3i-210. I think that’s ok. Driver, I just cannot get over the 240 mark. I will try more hip turn today. I am afraid if I turn my hips more I will have the disconnect on the takeaway where the club is parallel to ground. I think it will move to far back again and not straight back from the target line.
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post #13 of 26
12/29/09 at 10:39pm

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

When i had problems with hip turn and distance i did a little drill to let me feel how im supposed to with a full swing, it also will cure a fade/slice. When i tee'd up the ball i would turn my right pocket back before i even swung. Its kinda of hard to explain but i will try. Tee your ball up and do your pre shot routine, when your already to swing turn your hips to the right, as if your putting your front right pocket behind you. Then swing with them already turned. Your club head speed will go up and your distance. Once you do it for a little bit it trains your body and mind what it feels like to do a correct hip turn full swing and it will start to come naturally. I hope you can understand this. Its kind of hard to explaine but in person i would be able to show you in 10 seconds.
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post #14 of 26
12/29/09 at 11:26pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Originally Posted by Nickynoodles View Post
When i had problems with hip turn and distance i did a little drill to let me feel how im supposed to with a full swing, it also will cure a fade/slice. When i tee'd up the ball i would turn my right pocket back before i even swung. Its kinda of hard to explain but i will try. Tee your ball up and do your pre shot routine, when your already to swing turn your hips to the right, as if your putting your front right pocket behind you. Then swing with them already turned. Your club head speed will go up and your distance. Once you do it for a little bit it trains your body and mind what it feels like to do a correct hip turn full swing and it will start to come naturally. I hope you can understand this. Its kind of hard to explaine but in person i would be able to show you in 10 seconds.
I think I understand. What you mean is at address, turn the hips to where they should be at the back swing and then do the actual swing with hips already turned???...
I assume once I actually to the back swing, then do the rest as normal, slide hips forward and all? Correct?
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post #15 of 26
12/30/09 at 12:35am

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Originally Posted by bpolunin View Post
I think I understand. What you mean is at address, turn the hips to where they should be at the back swing and then do the actual swing with hips already turned???...
I assume once I actually to the back swing, then do the rest as normal, slide hips forward and all? Correct?
You got it. You really dont even have to think about the rest of your swing. Just turn the hips prior and take a normal swing as you always would. Next thing you know your doing it with out the prior hip turn and your getting full tourque and hinging of the upper and lower body. It actually helps with a slice also. It will stop a slicer from getting armsy and comming outside to in. However you swing now do exactly the same just before you swing turn your right pocket back towards your back.(assuming your right handed). Give it a few trys. That will give you some added distance on drives. You will get your lower body and legs, which are more powerful in the golf swing then anything involved in your swing. After you practice it it will become natural and then you will be really able to really load up and rip it.
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post #16 of 26
1/13/10 at 4:09pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
The problem is on the takeaway, your first move away from the ball. Your hands move away from your body, the clubhead moves way back to the inside. When the club is parallel to the ground it's a foot behind your rear end and your hands are still on your chest.
UPDATE: Swing is getting better. Will post some videos soon.
One question. Eric, the problem you mentioned above, I just can not fix. Or maybe I just don't know how to fix. I have been at the indoor range with 300fps cameras almost everyday trying to work on this and it is not happening. Every time pre-take away I think about this and then go to video and my clubhead is still behind my rear end. Are there any drill you can suggest to fix this?
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post #17 of 26
1/13/10 at 6:41pm

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Originally Posted by bpolunin View Post
UPDATE: Swing is getting better. Will post some videos soon.
One question. Eric, the problem you mentioned above, I just can not fix. Or maybe I just don't know how to fix. I have been at the indoor range with 300fps cameras almost everyday trying to work on this and it is not happening. Every time pre-take away I think about this and then go to video and my clubhead is still behind my rear end. Are there any drill you can suggest to fix this?
Your hands are rolling open (your wrists, your forearms, whatever).

Try to feel as if you're counter-rotating them, as if you're rotating your left hand UNDER or your right hand OVER instead of the opposite.

In other words, as you look down at your hands, try to rotate them counterclockwise rather than clockwise.

One final way: try to feel as if you literally close the face a lot on the takeaway rather than roll it open.

Do this slow at first. VERY slowly build up speed and if you ever don't get it right, drop back two notches on the speed chart...

Make sure your hands go in as they do this, too. That'll help. It may feel like you're trying to take your hands back and in on an almost 45° angle or something. There's a thread on here about "deep" hands that would benefit you as well.

I just got back from the dome where I worked on this exact thing.
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post #18 of 26
1/13/10 at 6:55pm

Re: Swing thoughts please!? 1st S&T video

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Your hands are rolling open (your wrists, your forearms, whatever).

Try to feel as if you're counter-rotating them, as if you're rotating your left hand UNDER or your right hand OVER instead of the opposite.

In other words, as you look down at your hands, try to rotate them counterclockwise rather than clockwise.

One final way: try to feel as if you literally close the face a lot on the takeaway rather than roll it open.

Do this slow at first. VERY slowly build up speed and if you ever don't get it right, drop back two notches on the speed chart...

Make sure your hands go in as they do this, too. That'll help. It may feel like you're trying to take your hands back and in on an almost 45° angle or something. There's a thread on here about "deep" hands that would benefit you as well.

I just got back from the dome where I worked on this exact thing.
Here's something you can do for this in your living room that really help. Set up your camera at DL view and hook it up to your computer. I use the V1 home software with the camera as my recording device. This way you can set the camera away from the monitor. Push record and address the ball. Don't worry about swinging. You just want a picture of your address position. Go back and press stop and then draw a line on your shaft using the V1 tools. Now hit live again and the line will remain on the monitor. Go back and address the ball at the same spot. Now you can practice your takeaway and monitor your hand position against the shaft line by watching the monitor during your backswing. Hope this makes sense. It really helped me as I used to take the club way to the inside as well.
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