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"The Golfing Machine" by Homer Kelley - Page 5

post #73 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post

Plus, I'm interested in learning more about the difference between being a 'hitter' or a 'swinger'.  

 

There really is no difference. Once you know a few basic "vocabulary words," I'd stop. Hinge actions, the hitting/swinging stuff, etc. is outdated.

post #74 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post

I ordered the book.  Mainly because when I watch videos of various instructors - and they are discussing hinge points, pressure points, etc... I'd like to have it as reference to be able to speak that language and not have it fly over my head.  Plus, I'm interested in learning more about the difference between being a 'hitter' or a 'swinger'.  

 

Be careful not to get too deep into the information, some of it's good and some of it is really bad.  Everyone has pieces of both hitting and swinging  Here's my basic definition of the two.  But I don't really like the terms and I think they're pointless.

 

Hitter - angle of approach: which means the direction the right arm is straightening or thrusting is directed outward (angled), Utilizes PA #1 and #4, no loading of PA#3 (in theory) and minimal loading of PA#2, punch elbow, this is where Brian Gay got in a lot of trouble

Swinger- arc of approach: which means you're trying to swing on more of a concentric arc, utilizing all 4 PA's with pitch elbow  

 

Hinge motions in terms of effecting curve are incorrect, the ball doesn't know or care what hinge motion you're using.

"Hitting" is basically bending and thrusting the right arm, gets the right elbow into too much of a punch position imo.  Releasing   This is similar to what Brian Gay used to do, not a dynamic motion.  Grant knows it and has been all through this himself and look at what he teaches.  

 

Example of the different motions on the downswing.  

 

 


 

post #75 of 94

Yeah this is why I wanted to get the book though... So I could at least educate myself on the different methods.  They are both interesting... I'm really not sure what I would be considered?  A hitter or a swinger?  I believe I'm incorporating some moves into my swing that could be considered 'hitter'?  But not sure if I'm effectively pulling them off or not?  Regardless of how much or little I incorporate... I still find it fascinating to  learn these subtle differences within the swing mechanics.

post #76 of 94

I have read and continue to read The Golfing Machine. I tried the Stack and Tilt successfully about 5 years ago but hurt my knee and gave it up until last year after reading TGM. I have also read Jim Hardy's stuff on one plane - two plane swings and always assumed that the hitter was the one plane and swinger was the two plane. After watching this short video, I am not so sure.

post #77 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post

Yeah this is why I wanted to get the book though... So I could at least educate myself on the different methods.  They are both interesting... I'm really not sure what I would be considered?  A hitter or a swinger?  I believe I'm incorporating some moves into my swing that could be considered 'hitter'?  But not sure if I'm effectively pulling them off or not?  Regardless of how much or little I incorporate... I still find it fascinating to  learn these subtle differences within the swing mechanics. 

 

This is a great guide to helping you through it, puts it more into layman's terms

http://3jack.blogspot.com/2009/09/3jacks-translation-of-tgm-part-1b.html

 

This is from Erik's  Golf Terminology link in his signature, basically the "highlights" or the terms we use 98% of the time

 

Motions

Basic Motion = "Chip" = Clubhead goes two feet back and two feet through (kinda like a chip)
Acquired Motion = "Pitch" = Clubhead taken back until the right forearm is parallel with the ground and then parallel with the ground again on the follow through ("9-3").
Total Motion = Full golf swing.

 

Accumulators in the Golf Swing
1: A bent right elbow
2: Leading (top) wrist cock
3: Angle between shaft and lead forearm (expressed as rotation about that lead forearm)
4: Angle between lead arm and shoulders
Each accumulator has a corresponding pressure point.

Pressure Points in the Golf Swing
1: The heel of the bottom hand where it touches the top hand or grip
2: The last three fingers of the top hand
3: The first joint of the bottom hand index finger where it touches the grip
4: Lead armpit (or where the lead arm touches the chest)
5: Trailing armpit*
* MORAD people add this one. There's no corresponding accumulator but it lets them talk about the trailing elbow separating (or not) from the chest.

Shaft and Elbow Plane
In a one-plane swing the head and hands will follow or stay between two lines: the shaft plane and the elbow plane. Both can be seen here in green and red. Hands follow the shaft plane until the right elbow begins folding, at which point they move up to the elbow plane. Impact is somewhere between the two and the clubhead and hands should exit the far side of the body

post #78 of 94

The book arrived today... I'm reading it per Homer's recommendation... I'm currently in Chapter 10.  Already learned a lot just from what I've read.  It was exactly what I expected... And will be used as key reference material for future discussions of the swing.

post #79 of 94

Beach, these might be some good videos to accompany the book

 

 

post #80 of 94

Thank you Mike!  I'll check those out.

 

One quick item I found interesting within the GM book is the use of the term the 'Fix'.  I believe it is simply a preshot - setup/feel at address routine.  I've never heard this term used before... But I have really tried to incorporate feeling PP#3 during the 'Fix' and it has seemed to helped me.  

 

In particular, I do a forward press with my hands and the handle of the club - pushing my hands such that they look like they are covering my left toe from my left eye at address.  And I focus on getting a flat left wrist and incorporates pressure in the right pointer finger (between first and second joint from the base of the finger)... PP#3.  Then release that pressure right before I start the backswing by bringing my hands/handle back to the inside of my left thigh.  Once the hands/handle returns to a slightly forward pressed position - but not as far left as when they were over the left toe... Then I pull the trigger on the backswing and go.

 

This has helped me with the quality and consistency of returning the club to the impact position, and in conjunction improved my ball striking.

post #81 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post

Yeah this is why I wanted to get the book though... So I could at least educate myself on the different methods.  They are both interesting... I'm really not sure what I would be considered?  A hitter or a swinger?  I believe I'm incorporating some moves into my swing that could be considered 'hitter'?  But not sure if I'm effectively pulling them off or not?  Regardless of how much or little I incorporate... I still find it fascinating to  learn these subtle differences within the swing mechanics.

 

You're neither and both.

 

I think "hitting" and "swinging" are two of the more useless portions of the book. Everyone does bits of both, and you can mix the pieces, too.

post #82 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

You're neither and both.

 

I think "hitting" and "swinging" are two of the more useless portions of the book. Everyone does bits of both, and you can mix the pieces, too.

Exactly.

TGM premise is faulty.

Either you are both  swinger and a hitter or neither.

The distinguish should be striker vs hitter...as in are you a ballstriker(golfer) or a ball hitter(hacker)?

The club/arms/body must swing always to a certain extent

post #83 of 94

I haven't read TGM, but I have read the perfect golf swing review online. Which is basically Jeff Mann summarizing a lot of the stuff that's in TGM, and trying to teach what he thinkgs is the best things in the book.

 

It's still very technical and really not a super easy read, but it's a great tool to really understand how the swing works and what your body should be doing in order to perform a good fundamental swing

post #84 of 94

From your contribution, it is clear that you are either much more knowledgeable about the golf swing than I am, or much smarter (I assure you that I'm not being sarcastic). I bought TGM in 1980, and spent many hours in the next couple of years trying to figure out what Mr. Kelly was trying to say. I think that I learned some things from the book, but its structure was infuriating.

 

I have come to three conclusions about this book:

  (1) This book can be of no help to the vast  majority of golfers, including low handicap amateurs and professionals

  (2) Mr. Kelly's mechanical analysis of the components of the swing are probably largely accurate, but I suspect that it is not totally accurate (and no, I can't say what is wrong)

  (3) Mr. Kelly would have needed a very good and knowledgeable editor if he wanted TGM to be any more than a major curiosity in golfing literature

post #85 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by grantc79 View Post

I think you guys oughta realize it isn't a book that was made to be read like a novel.

Most of you are saying that you just can't make your way through it and the reason is because you will go into the book and the book will throw a ton of different information at you all within a couple of pages. Basically imagine if you had two books to read and at the end of each page of each book you had to understand every word in every line. Well a book by William Shakeseare would take you time to pour over the pages, tie strings together, and really figure everything out. It would take awhile. The book by Dr Seuss wouldn't take you 5 seconds. TGM book is definitely the former and not the latter and if you try to read it like a Seuss book and you don't take a moment to stop, pick up a club, look in the mirror, reread, and digest all that information you are wasting time.

It is a fantastic book and in my opinion there has never been a golf swing nor will there ever be a golf swing that can't be completely described in TGM terminology.

 

I'm new to  on-line discussion so I didn't include this quote from grantc79 showing what I was commenting on.

post #86 of 94

I like it.  Its reassuring to have a book that you use as the "final word" when you are sorting through things with swing problems. 
 

post #87 of 94

Has anyone on here gone through the TGM certification process. I am interested in doing that in the new couple of years.

post #88 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkahlm View Post

Has anyone on here gone through the TGM certification process. I am interested in doing that in the new couple of years.

 

 

I know a few guys that have gone through it.  I can give you their contact info and you can see if they think it's worth it.  IMO the thing about TGM is that you have to know what's practical and what is incorrect.  Don't get caught up in taking TGM too literally.  Like the stuff with hinge actions, right forearm having to be on plane and swinger vs hitter.  Better money would be spent going through 5 Simple Keys certification which has roots in TGM(Chuck Evans is one of the all time leading experts and wrote the 7th edition) or going to some Mac schools.  You'll get better TGM knowledge from those guys, as well as Dave and Erik, than Joe, the guy who run TGM now.  

post #89 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

 

I know a few guys that have gone through it.  I can give you their contact info and you can see if they think it's worth it.  IMO the thing about TGM is that you have to know what's practical and what is incorrect.  Don't get caught up in taking TGM too literally.  Like the stuff with hinge actions, right forearm having to be on plane and swinger vs hitter.  Better money would be spent going through 5 Simple Keys certification which has roots in TGM(Chuck Evans is one of the all time leading experts and wrote the 7th edition) or going to some Mac schools.  You'll get better TGM knowledge from those guys, as well as Dave and Erik, than Joe, the guy who run TGM now.  

How do you go about going through the certification process on that I would be interested in learning about that and talking to you about some people who went through TGM.

post #90 of 94

I was Certified as a STAR SYSTEM Instructor in 1986 by Tommy Tomassello, one of the first Golf pros to study "the Golfing Machine." with Homer Kelly and Ben Doyle.

 

"The Golfing machine" isn't an instruction manual, it is an encyclopedia of all the ways to move a Golf ball from where it rests to some other place, using the human body and a golf club, as prescribed by the rules of golf.  It is deliberately complex because the subject matter is complex, It is about.. PHYSICS, GEOMETRY, CALCULUS, KINESIOLOGY, REASON and EMOTION. It is about the human mind and how we understand and interpret the laws of the universe we live in.  Sadly, it has never been properly edited and illustrated with modern graphics and photography to make it more marketable in the 21st Century.

 

As it is currently published, it's not particularly interesting to a casual Golfer or even to a teacher who uses some particular "method."  HOWEVER, nearly every great teacher of golf knows and uses the FACTS and TRUTHS within it's pages,  Bobby Clampett's "Impact Golf" is a direct offshoot of Mr. Kelley's work and Martin Hall's Golf Academy on the Golf Channel is largely based upon the book.  

 

I have taught and coached players from raw beginners to PGA and LPGA players for over 35 years and once I was exposed to the Golfing Machine, I became far more effective as a teacher for a very simple reason... I can see what is causing any problem very clearly and I understand what part of my student's "Golfing Machine" isn't working correctly. I consider my Dog-Earred copy of the first edition of "the Golfing Machine" to be responsible for my growth and reputation as a teacher.

 

BUY it.. Read it.. Study it.. and gain it's knowledge and wisdom.  KEEP it next to your toilet for a couple of years, you may be surprised how much your own game improves as you leaf through and slowly absorb the contents of "the Golfing Machine."  LOL

 

MY BEST

John Baker PGA

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