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Hooking the ball with a weak grip... how is that even possible?


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Ok, so i'll be the first to admit i don't know much about ball flight laws, etc( perhaps i should read up on those). anywho, today i went out to his some balls. i'm trying to implement less of a sweeping motion and create a smaller angle between my shaft and my arms with my downswing, simple enough. well, i start hooking the ball like crazy. well, more of a draw, but still about 15 yards more than what i'd ever care to play. i tried weakening my grip, and the same thing happened. any ideas on what could be happening or why?
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You'll have to decide if you're hitting a draw or a hook here. A draw, or a push-draw, will start out right and curve back towards the target. A hook will start left and continue curving left. At least after my definition.

An open clubface is needed to hit a draw, so I don't see anything unusual about that. In any case, your swingpath must be even further in-to-out than the clubface angle.

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

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You'll have to decide if you're hitting a draw or a hook here. A draw, or a push-draw, will start out right and curve back towards the target. A hook will start left and continue curving left. At least after my definition.

well, my ball starts right of the target where i was aiming, but then it ends up way left of where i want it to go.

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Then the swingpath is too much in-to-out.

Ball starting right of the target indicates an open clubface. What cause it to spin to the left is a swingpath closed relative to the clubhead.

Let's say you are aimed at the target with the body, that's 0º. Your clubface is aimed, at least at impact, 2º open. Which sounds reasonable with your weak grip. The swingpath is maybe 6º open. To dial down the spin, you'll have to lessen the swingpath angle to around 3-4º. These angles are of course impossible to measure in any way, so you'll have to experiment and watch the ball flight.

This is where understanding the laws of ball flight become useful. If you go to the range and start hitting balls, trying to fix things, you'll have to understand what cause the ball to fly as it does. Furthermore, to understand what your problem is, is the first step in order to fix it. Based on what you've said, I think you have created a more in-to-out swingpath when trying to get the club closer to the arms. Which sounds probable, as the arms are close to the body, and the closer the club is to your body, the more in-to-out angle will it have.

So, to sum up, try getting your swingpath less in-to-out. Unless you want it of course, then you'd have to open the clubface even more, to compensate. One of the two factors has to change. For the sake of consistency, I vote for a less in-to-out swingpath. If you get it down to around 1-2º, you can also stop with the weak grip and start working on a neutral grip. This will produce a slight draw in the ball. If you get the swingpath inside of the clubface angle, the ball will start curving right instead.

Clubface 2º, swingpath 6º = Start right and curve hard left
Clubface 2º, swingpath 4º = Start right and curve left (closer to the target)
Clubface 2º, swingpath 2º = Start right and continue straight (will come down right of target)
Clubface 2º, swingpath 0º = Start right and curve further right
Clubface 0º, swingpath 1-2º = Start slightly right and curve slightly left

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

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thanks for the info. i tried to feel like i was almost coming over the top, but it still drew like crazy. i guess i'm just gonna have to break down and video tape my swing. do you know where i can find some literature about flight laws and stuff?
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The Definitive Club Face Angle & Swing Path on Ball Flight Thread would be a good place to start. Make sure you read the Trackman articles too.

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

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Try closing your clubface a bit more. A weak grip sends a message to your brain that you need to shut the clubface hard. Strengthen it a bit and your brain will be able to relax. No matter which way your club path, if it curves left, the face is shut to the direction of force. You want the club to be more or less square to the direction of force.
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I had the same problem until I read that Life magazine article from the 50s on Hogans secret of cupping the left wrist at the top by pronating the left forearm in the backswing. It has the added benefit of a flatter swing plane, just like Hogan had.

Another way to block out the left side of the course is to keep your left arm tight to the chest starting at impact. The club finishes low left instead of down the line which GUARANTEES you won't go left. In fact the ball flight is called a 'knucklefade' it ascends as a draw then descends as a slight fade a Hogan trademark. Anybody who practices 16 hours a day like Hogan did tend to figure this stuff out.
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How will shutting the clubface get it closer to the direction of force (or swingpath as I call it), when he's swinging in-to-out? By closing the clubface, the ball will start at the target and spin even further left. I agree that, for a standard shot, you want the swingpath and clubface at somewhat the same angle, but he'd have to open the clubface to get there. So, I recommend changing the swingpath instead.

For comparison, you can look at Kenny Perry. He's got an in-to-out swingpath of +6º, which is why he always hits this huge draw. In order to do so, his clubface must be open. I have not seen anything written about the relationship between these two angles and how much spin is produced. Anyways, the clubface must be open. Probably somewhere around 3-5º. Imagine a swingpath of 6º and a clubface of 0º at impact. The ball will start around 1º right of the target and spin to the left. Now, imagine a swingpath of 6º and a clubface of 4º at impact. This will start the ball further to the right, but also produce less spin on the ball. The result will be a ball starting out 4,3º to the right and spin to the left, closer to the target line at 0º.
I had the same problem until I read that Life magazine article from the 50s on Hogans secret of cupping the left wrist at the top by pronating the left forearm in the backswing.

Cupping the left wrist opens the clubface, so yeah, you get the same result. I would not advice doing this though, as it just adds another moving part in the swing. Also, having a swing where you rely on a cupped wrist in order to open the clubface is not what I would call consistent, especially with such a huge in-to-out swingpath angle. If you cup the wrist too much, the ball will start right and never come back. If you don't cup it enough, the clubface will get closer to square and the ball start curving to the left again.

Hogan was a brilliant golfer, but we know tons of stuff today that he didn't. He used his own swing and feelings as an example. That includes his flaws and his strengths. Here's a quote from a Trackman article:

Source: Tracman The tour pros are amazingly good at being consistent with their club path and face angle. Of all the tour pro data I have ever seen, Jim Furyk is the one with the most consistent club path and face angle (about 0.4 degrees in consistency with his driver), and in addition Furyk’s average club path and face angle for the data I have seen are exactly 0 degrees. I am convinced that this is one of the reasons Furyk is always in the top rankings on fairways hit.

The closer both clubface and swingpath is to square, the more accurate you will be. Hitting draws and fades should be done by opening or closing the stance and changing the clubface angle. As "default", the more square the better. If you want to take the left side out of play on one hole, aim right and close the clubface slightly. If you want to take the right side out of play, aim left and open the clubface slightly.

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

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Cupping the left wrist opens the clubface, so yeah, you get the same result. I would not advice doing this though, as it just adds another moving part in the swing. Also, having a swing where you rely on a cupped wrist in order to open the clubface is not what I would call consistent, especially with such a huge in-to-out swingpath angle. If you cup the wrist too much, the ball will start right and never come back. If you don't cup it enough, the clubface will get closer to square and the ball start curving to the left again.

If you release the club low left then the clubface will close naturally as the core continues to turn well after impact. If you release the club down the line then the core stalls at impact and you have to time the roll of the wrists to close the clubhead, which is problematic.

This video explains hinge action. The angled hinge being the low left release that occurs naturally if the core continues to turn after impact. The horizontal hinge is the down the line release requriing a timed roll of the wrists.
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How do you release the club low left?

If you cup the left wrist, it has to uncup or you'll have to roll the arms to get the clubface square. Doesn't sound consistent to me.

With the clubface square throughout the swing, you don't have to cup the wrist or roll the arms to get it square at impact. You don't "release" the club at all. You release the lag, but the club will always be square to the target you aimed it at at address. Rolling the arms or flipping the wrists leads to inconsistency.

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

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How do you release the club low left?

I agree. I've always felt that the wrists should be totally passive during the swing. If the body moves properly, the wrists just follow naturally. Anything that adds timing to the swing is generally bad.

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If you release the club low left then the clubface will close naturally as the core continues to turn well after impact. If you release the club down the line then the core stalls at impact and you have to time the roll of the wrists to close the clubhead, which is problematic.

You don't need to release the club at all. You can have a swing with no "release" and also a swing that simply stays ON the plane, not under it ("low left") and not over it ("down the line"). The plane goes left, up, and in again.

The angled hinge being the low left release that occurs naturally if the core continues to turn after impact. The horizontal hinge is the down the line release requriing a timed roll of the wrists.

Perhaps you're using "low left release" to mean an on-plane release, as in no left wrist action at all really. Lynn talks about keeping a flat left wrist for a long time in that video, and to me that's not a "low left release."

You've advocated a cupped wrist, which I agree would require timing to get back to square. Better to just let the wrists do almost nothing - no cupping, minimal turning or rolling - throughout the swing. BTW, when I hear "low left" release I think of Hunter Mahan or even Y.E. Yang. They go off the plane and exaggerate what I (and others) call a "CP" release. It almost looks like they'd have to hit a huge slice with their swings but they hold off the hard left move until after impact. It brings their bodies around but is probably the opposite move most amateurs should try to make - they'd be better off with a more CF type move.

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i guess i'm just gonna have to break down and video tape my swing.

think you definitely should do that. I got my self an exilim ex fs-10 for under 200 bucks. Sucker does unbelievable slo mo, and just for pure clarity it's awesome. I've used it only a few times and spotted so many obvious and easy fixes I've lost count.

I think it might be the best golf purchase I ever made.. oh, and also got a gorillapod type stand for about 15 bucks.. and use it right on my bag like *shanks* suggested. I know it's a big hump to jump over and actually video yourself.. trust me. 'Self image' issues (good god i'm fat), embarrasment of people thinking your a freak for videoing yourself issues, technical annoyance issues in terms of setting it up (although it's easy once you actually break down and do it). But this problem you are having could conceivably fix itself instantly once you actually saw what you were doing. If you have more balls than I do you even could try posting your vids here, but that probably wouldn't even be necessary. But, just to add my two cents.. here are some technical things that could help you.. Rate of arm rotation, relative to rate of shoulder and body rotation not sure why no one has really discussed arm rotation in relation to shoulder rotaion and body rotation as the cause of this, but in my mind that's more critical to hooking than things like a cupped or flat wrist wrist position. Obviously all these are interconnected, but If my body stops rotating and my shoulders stop then my arms will have to speed up the rotation in order to compensate. Then if in the next swing I keep the same rate of rotation in the arms out of habit, but then speed up the body or shoulders, Im out of synch and will tend to hook. Allignment Another two things to look into are initial body and clubface allignment... if you are alligned at address to the right in one or both of those ways your brain will signal to compensate and do the above type of adjustments. Work with an allignment club to determine this. Overcorrect As an experiment, aim *way* left (with body and clubface) and hit huge slices. Its easier to feel big changes than small ones. Once you are bananna slicing happily, you can try aiming a little less left and work your way back to more straight shot. Grip pressure if you have an overly loose grip (and I bet you do) this can encourage hooking as well, imo. It's commonly discussed that tension reduces feel and an overly tight grip can hurt you, but I have learned that an overly loose grip at address will hurt you and will cause a miriad of swing flaws.. I would look into holding the club with an extra firm death grip to begin with, especially with the left hand (but you can try firming up your right hand too-- a lot of us have overcooked the "loose right hand" so it ends up hurting us) and firm up your left arm too. Do this while you are doing the slicing drill above (especially if you are still finding it hard to slice). A firm grip will help inhibit arm rotation through the ball. Looping If your problem is you are looping too far to the inside on the backswing, you once again could be setting yourself up so you have to compensate by closing up coming through.. you could try reversing the loop to work on this.. ie do a figure eight so you first loop inside then out, so you end up more outside. Davis Love's dad and bob Toski were big on loop drills.. you could check out there books.. although most people have the opposite problem that you (might) be having need to end up more inside out. Hope one of these things helps. - Jerry

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I had the same problem until I read that Life magazine article from the 50s on Hogans secret of cupping the left wrist at the top by pronating the left forearm in the backswing. It has the added benefit of a flatter swing plane, just like Hogan had.

yeah, i sometimes do that when i'm trying to hit a hard fade. however, i'd rather not implement that into my normal swing as i've found it is not a very high percentage move. plus you lose quite a bit of power doing it.

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weak grip or strong grip is not important...the fundemental is that both palms need to be facing each other. If you have a strong left hand and a weak right hand they are basically in conflict and impossible to achieve a correct wrist hinge.
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Why is it not important? If someone set up the club with a square clubface and take a strong grip, chances are good that the hands will turn back towards neutral during the swing and open the clubface. I agree that the palms need to be facing eachother, but strong or weak grip makes a difference. The less action done with the wrists and hands, the better chances are of hitting a good shot, or even better, the one you intended to. No rolling, no turning, no flipping, no cupping.

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

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