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Match Play and Handicapping: Thoughts? - Page 3

post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_miller View Post

I have no problem losing to someone who got 8 strokes on 9 holes, as long as I was in it - as long as I had a chance to win if I made good shots.

 

Net stroke play where a higher handicap could be considered by some to be the "Club Champion" is just silly. The Club Champion is the low gross from the lowest flight (first, championship, whatever). Low net - lol.

 

Well, I could see the club champ being low gross from any flight (I've seen some clubs with flights that include only + handicappers, and the "tier 2" flight is 0-5), but I agree with the sentiment that it's a joke to have a low net club champ.

Any club I've belonged to had a pretty wide range of indexes (indeces?) in the championship flight. You could also play in that flight by choice, but your scores were gross - very small if any net prizes.

post #38 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_miller View Post

Any club I've belonged to had a pretty wide range of indexes (indeces?) in the championship flight. You could also play in that flight by choice, but your scores were gross - very small if any net prizes.

In ours, you play gross or you play net, your choice (not both) - but the real champion is gross from the back tees and the senior champ is gross from the whites. 

 

What I found funny this year was people changing what they played once they saw what others signed up for (a lot of seniors jumped out of their gross once they saw a certain guy was playing seniors gross instead of club gross)

post #39 of 45
The problem with the handicap system is that it was designed for medal (stroke) play and NOT match play. I would not have a problem giving away 18 shots to a 21 in stroke play, but I don't like giving him a shot per hole in match play. He will inevitably make some doubles and triples which only result in loss in a loss of hole in match play, but that will rack up his medal score. Consequently, he will retain his high handicap which is ONLY accurate for medal play. For Match Play I favor taking 75% of a players index, then going to the slope table to get a course handicap. Higher handicappers cry like a baby at this proposition. At the very least they should take whatever score it takes to lose a hole net during match play, and not record (as they are currently allowed) a 7 or an 8.
post #40 of 45
As an addendum to my previous post, I don't believe this issue will ever be resolved until the USGA steps in and sets policy. They should, at the very least, make a recommendation. They are well aware of the problem, yet refuse to address it. I'm not sure why since just about everybody plays Match Play most of the time.
post #41 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by James038 View Post

The problem with the handicap system is that it was designed for medal (stroke) play and NOT match play. I would not have a problem giving away 18 shots to a 21 in stroke play, but I don't like giving him a shot per hole in match play. He will inevitably make some doubles and triples which only result in loss in a loss of hole in match play, but that will rack up his medal score. Consequently, he will retain his high handicap which is ONLY accurate for medal play. For Match Play I favor taking 75% of a players index, then going to the slope table to get a course handicap. Higher handicappers cry like a baby at this proposition. At the very least they should take whatever score it takes to lose a hole net during match play, and not record (as they are currently allowed) a 7 or an 8.

 

The handicap system only works for medal play when the handicaps in the competition are all within 2 or 3 strokes of each other.  Any large disparity and your theory breaks down fast.  Large handicapped stroke tournaments only work if the field is divided into flights and the players then play scratch within the flight.  22 years of playing both formats has convinced me of this.  I've worked on tournament setup, played in dozens of matches and stroke competitions, and the handicap system must be applied properly in both formats, or it's certainly possible for it to fail.  That's true of any sort of a formula.

 

We always wheeled off the low handicap using 80% of course handicap in individual matches and 90% in fourball matches.  That seemed to work best for leveling out the relative scoring variability which is natural for the higher handicapper.  Give too high a percentage and then the low capper gains the advantage just through the consistency which is his strength.  That consistency can be a detriment in a match with a wide disparity in handicap, although not as much as you seem to think.  The high capper's score can go off the charts higher just as often as it goes lower.  I've also known some very consistent bogey golfers who simply make a lot of bogies due to lack of distance or poor short game, but rarely have a blowup hole. 

 

I've played several matches where I've had to give 18+ strokes, and I've won as many as I've lost.  However, I prefer playing when the handicaps are closer.

post #42 of 45

Does anyone have experience with using something like stableford scoring to set handicaps, as one possible way to "fix" the issue with handicapping in match play. Several have already mentioned it, the issue seems to be that in match play no matter how bad a hole you have, the worst outcome is you lose 1 point. My typical 9-hole league night, I shoot either +4 (ish) or +9 (ish) and the difference is one hole where I shank a drive (or 2 drives) into the woods or dump a ball into a pond and then lose my cool a bit.

 

It seems like stableford or some other system where you can't use blow-up holes to "inflate" your handicap would solve this issue. And I'm not saying people are sandbagging, when I shoot a 10 on a hole it's a legitimate 10; I earned it! But it's inflating my handicap without hurting nearly as much in match play.

post #43 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harp stein View Post

Does anyone have experience with using something like stableford scoring to set handicaps, as one possible way to "fix" the issue with handicapping in match play. Several have already mentioned it, the issue seems to be that in match play no matter how bad a hole you have, the worst outcome is you lose 1 point. My typical 9-hole league night, I shoot either +4 (ish) or +9 (ish) and the difference is one hole where I shank a drive (or 2 drives) into the woods or dump a ball into a pond and then lose my cool a bit.

It seems like stableford or some other system where you can't use blow-up holes to "inflate" your handicap would solve this issue. And I'm not saying people are sandbagging, when I shoot a 10 on a hole it's a legitimate 10; I earned it! But it's inflating my handicap without hurting nearly as much in match play.

That's what Equitable Stroke Control is for. It's also why most match play net events are played at a "percentage" of handicap....usually 80% or so.
post #44 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harp stein View Post
 

Does anyone have experience with using something like stableford scoring to set handicaps, as one possible way to "fix" the issue with handicapping in match play. Several have already mentioned it, the issue seems to be that in match play no matter how bad a hole you have, the worst outcome is you lose 1 point. My typical 9-hole league night, I shoot either +4 (ish) or +9 (ish) and the difference is one hole where I shank a drive (or 2 drives) into the woods or dump a ball into a pond and then lose my cool a bit.

 

It seems like stableford or some other system where you can't use blow-up holes to "inflate" your handicap would solve this issue. And I'm not saying people are sandbagging, when I shoot a 10 on a hole it's a legitimate 10; I earned it! But it's inflating my handicap without hurting nearly as much in match play.

 

With your profile handicap, that 10 should be adjusted to 7 before posting.  You shouldn't be posting any more than 7 on any hole.

post #45 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

With your profile handicap, that 10 should be adjusted to 7 before posting.  You shouldn't be posting any more than 7 on any hole.

 

 

ESC table, for those unfamiliar with it......

 

f10d4ff4-50d3-4c21-9805-dc905269c1de.gif

 

@Fourputt said, with your index, you may not post (for handicap posting ONLY) any single hole score higher than 7.  Note, hcp index must be converted to course handicap to properly apply ESC for any given round.

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