My Swing (Jcp907)

**Jcp907** · May 22, 2010

Any drill suggestions for keeping the head more still?

Any feebback is welcome!

Thank you!

**RobS** · May 22, 2010

You're having trouble keeping your head still and remaining in your spine angle because you're overswinging. See how on the backswing your hands are behind your head? Keep your hands up and out, you should be able to easily turn your head and see them at the top of your backswing. You see the pic of the bottom video? Instead of taking the club more over your hips and getting stuck, try taking it more upright towards the shoulder.

Drill: Address the ball, cock your wrists so the club is parallel with the ground, turn your shoulders making sure you can still easily see your hands as mentioned above, swing. You'll notice that your shoulders are going to have to move at a more upright angle as opposed to how they move now, more horizontally.

**Fatphil** · May 22, 2010

Like your swing...

that yellow thing attached to the shaft that taps your left forearm is way cool. Excellent swing aid, where did u get it?

**bananas** · May 22, 2010

What rob is saying about your hands being too far inside. Try to copy this position. You can see his shoulder blade through his arms.

**Jcp907** · May 22, 2010

You're having trouble keeping your head still and remaining in your spine angle because you're overswinging. See how on the backswing your hands are behind your head? Keep your hands up and out, you should be able to easily turn your head and see them at the top of your backswing. You see the pic of the bottom video? Instead of taking the club more over your hips and getting stuck, try taking it more upright towards the shoulder.

Thank you RobS, that is definitely a different feel. I will work on it.

Like your swing...

Thank you! I found it on ebay. Unfortunately, it comes from over-seas, but it was only about 13 bucks, shipped from Korea. Search for swing trainer. I use it when practicing, or when warming up. It's primary use for me, is to be certain the face angle is correct at the top.

What rob is saying about your hands being too far inside. Try to copy this position. You can see his shoulder blade through his arms.

Thank you very much, that helps a bunch! It's definitely a different feel!

**Stretch** · May 22, 2010

God knows I'm no expert, but you do seem to have an unconventional amount of wrist cock at the start of the swing. By the time your hands are in the roughly covering-the-belt-buckle position, where most people will have the club parallel to the ground and the shaft pointing down the target line, yours is already pointed all the way up through the right shoulder. Although it's not stopping you getting into a pretty nice position at the top of the backswing. Maybe a little too flat, because from there it looks you're having to use a lot of tumble (the drop of the left shoulder) to put the club onto a steeper path back down to the ball. Again, please take with a big grain of salt. You're a better golfer than I am, just musing on some of the stuff I've been studying in my own swing.

Edit: Here's the example I was looking for with the hands and clubhead in the backswing. Look where they are at 5 seconds or so.

jmp782 · May 22, 2010

watch that head, buddy! Keep it still!

**Jcp907** · May 23, 2010

God knows I'm no expert, but you do seem to have an unconventional amount of wrist cock at the start of the swing. By the time your hands are in the roughly covering-the-belt-buckle position, where most people will have the club parallel to the ground and the shaft pointing down the target line, yours is already pointed all the way up through the right shoulder. Although it's not stopping you getting into a pretty nice position at the top of the backswing. Maybe a little too flat, because from there it looks you're having to use a lot of tumble (the drop of the left shoulder) to put the club onto a steeper path back down to the ball. Again, please take with a big grain of salt. You're a better golfer than I am, just musing on some of the stuff I've been studying in my own swing.

I used to wrist cock to the inside, bowing my left wrist and cupping my right on the backswing (still do on occassion). Perhaps I am over-doing it, but, it's there for now, as it's much more correct than my bowing/cupping. I will be working on finding the right position at the top. As I think about the suggestions regarding my position at the top, and the shoulder rotation being more vertical than horizontal, I am looking forward to making it happen. It's the same thing that my instructor was showing me, but I wasn't understanding. It's clear to me that this will help with my hooking issue.

**Jcp907** · May 23, 2010

watch that head, buddy! Keep it still!

I know! How?!?

**Stretch** · May 23, 2010

It's clear to me that this will help with my hooking issue.

Do you generally hook hard when you miss or is it more of a straight pull left of the target? The back flat-lay off-loop over swing often leads to the latter, as I know to my cost because I do much the same thing.

Actually, looking at your face-on view more carefully, I'm going to guess you do move the ball right to left quite a lot, because you have a nice big forward hip slide.

***iacas*** · May 23, 2010

Any drill suggestions for keeping the head more still?

My answer may surprise you. But the first thing is to fix your setup. Leave everything from the ground to your hips the same. Take your head - or the buttons on your shirt - and put them (vertically) right over the zipper on your shorts. I don't know why you're so far back, but it's going to be tough to hit the ball well from there.

Now, what you need to do to keep your head steady is simply to side tilt to the left. Side tilting is explained like this: if you are standing straight upright with your arms at your side, tilt to the left so that your left hand can slide down your side. You're going to need to feel as if your left shoulder is driving down towards your left ankle at the start of the backswing. DO NOT rotate - JUST drive the shoulder down. You'll drive it downward by side tilting - that's why I mentioned that in the paragraph above - but DO NOT TURN again. Trust me - you'll turn back just fine. JUST side tilt for now - that's the feeling. Side tilt and your shoulder will swing down. Your shoulders don't turn in a circle, and since your head is really close to the center of that circle (your spine right between your shoulders), it's going to move if you don't swing on that circle. This video was put together for a different reason, but it will illustrate to you the side tilting more and you'll notice Dave's head will stay fairly well centered:

You're having trouble keeping your head still and remaining in your spine angle because you're overswinging.

No, do not listen to that.

Keep your hands up and out

Or that.

Drill: Address the ball, cock your wrists so the club is parallel with the ground, turn your shoulders making sure you can still easily see your hands as mentioned above, swing. You'll notice that your shoulders are going to have to move at a more upright angle as opposed to how they move now, more horizontally.

Don't do the drill, but Rob, you're right on this about turning the shoulders on a steeper angle. Wrong about HOW, but right about their need to do so.

**RobS** · May 23, 2010

Well at least i got something right! Iacas, is the swing you teach the S&T;?

**Jcp907** · May 23, 2010

Do you generally hook hard when you miss or is it more of a straight pull left of the target? The back flat-lay off-loop over swing often leads to the latter, as I know to my cost because I do much the same thing.

Yes, when it's bad, it's an overcooked draw, when it's really bad it's a pull hook. The pull hook occurs when I try to kill the ball. But, when I am tired, I push it to the right.

**Jcp907** · May 23, 2010

I have considered sending in videos to evolvr, and probably will in the future, so, thank you for posting. First, I want to wait until I finished up with the lessons and practice membership that I have now.

I am hoping that this thread will help me ask my instructor the correct questions, so that I can obtain a better understanding of what it is that I need to do.

My answer may surprise you.

Out of curiousity, why do you think the answer may surprise me?

But the first thing is to fix your setup. Leave everything from the ground to your hips the same. Take your head - or the buttons on your shirt - and put them (vertically) right over the zipper on your shorts. I don't know why you're so far back, but it's going to be tough to hit the ball well from there.

My instructor has me positioned that way. I will definitely hit a couple for him and see if I am over-exaggerating the tilt that he wants me to have, but he definitely wants my head behind the ball. Mike Bender describes it in his DVD. I will fire that up tomorrow and see if I can show a copy of the explanation, to see if I am doing it incorrectly.

Now, what you need to do to keep your head steady is simply to side tilt to the left. Side tilting is explained like this: if you are standing straight upright with your arms at your side, tilt to the left so that your left hand can slide down your side.

After reading this, and watching the video, this sounds like such a departure from what I have been learning and reading. Or perhaps it's simply a different technique, and my lack of understand isn't allowing me to see the similarities. I am not sure. I know that you know your stuff, so your post has instant credibility in my mind, and again, thank you for taking the time. But, please help me understand why this seems so much different than what I am learning at Mike Bender's.

***iacas*** · May 23, 2010

I'm going to assume you're being a good student and doing as your instructor has asked. That said...

I am hoping that this thread will help me ask my instructor the correct questions, so that I can obtain a better understanding of what it is that I need to do.

The only questions that spring to mind are of the "are you crazy?" type.

I suppose there's one serious one: ask him HOW to keep your head still. Ten bucks says he won't know or he'll say something like "you just need to." I doubt the instructor knows that you stand up and side tilt in addition to rotating in your backswing. Everyone who keeps their head reasonably still (including almost the entire PGA Tour) does this whether they know WHY they do it or not. Okay, here's another question for him: why should I have any leaning backwards at setup? If I play the ball forward of center and have no lean back, my head will always be behind the ball. You see this in Grant's picture, and he's hitting an 8-iron or something. Ask him why nobody on the PGA Tour sets up like this. Your impact position is about as good as it can get... starting from that setup position. It's really very close to what you want to see... and I think it'll be darn near perfect if you can make the backswing easier on yourself. Right now it's adding unnecessary complications.

Out of curiousity, why do you think the answer may surprise me?

Because of the things I just said.

And your paragraph at the end.

I will definitely hit a couple for him and see if I am over-exaggerating the tilt that he wants me to have, but he definitely wants my head behind the ball.

Here you are beside Grant Waite, a well respected ballstriker.

After reading this, and watching the video, this sounds like such a departure from what I have been learning and reading.

You don't want to turn your shoulders in a circle and keep your head steady?

But, please help me understand why this seems so much different than what I am learning at Mike Bender's.

I'm surprised it's a Mike Bender teacher. Dave Wedzik considers Mike Bender to be awfully close to understanding some of these same things.

Nobody on the PGA Tour sets up like you've done. You need to take a hard look at that and re-examine the advice you were given and, if the instructor likes this setup, to re-examine the instructor giving it. Update: One more image. Your shoulder turn is entirely too flat. Yes, your backswing is unnecessarily long. But problem 1A is getting your head to stay still, and side tilting is how. It'll also clean up your shoulder steepness.

**Jcp907** · May 23, 2010

I'm going to assume you're being a good student and doing as your instructor has asked. That said...

Am I crazy? I assume that you are asking that because I am asking questions on the forum, instead of asking my instructor. I have asked my instructor, and spent considerable time-and have yet to accomplish the goal. There are two fixtures that he gave me-as follows: One is in the MEGSA equipment where I have a pad to the right, or left of my head. The other is with a long shaft (two of them together) in a shaft holder, with a noodle on the end. Place that in front of you and put that against the left or right side of my face at address. The issue is that he is giving me things to put in my way, but I have yet to "hear" or "understand" it. So, I am doing homework-jury is still out on crazy.

Okay, here's another question for him: why should I have any leaning backwards at setup? If I play the ball forward of center and have no lean back, my head will always be behind the ball. You see this in Grant's picture, and he's hitting an 8-iron or something. Ask him why nobody on the PGA Tour sets up like this.

"One of the biggest things in the posture, is the tilt of the body" is how Mike Bender leads into this section on his video. This is paraphrased, but I just watched the video from Mike Bender Academy and this is done because the right hand is lower than the left, so the right shoulder should be lower than the left. The process that he uses is to stand straight, put a shaft hanging vertically from your sternum, and hold it to your sternum. Lean to your right, until the shaft contacts your left inner thigh. I did this in the mirror, and the resulting position is the position you see in the video.

You don't want to turn your shoulders in a circle and keep your head steady?

I do, but I have not heard your explanation with regards to how to accomplish it. Perhaps it's the piece of the puzzle that I am missing. I sure hope it is!

I'm surprised it's a Mike Bender teacher. Dave Wedzik considers Mike Bender to be awfully close to understanding some of these same things.

It's not just a Mike Bender teacher...it's Mike Bender himself as well. I am fortunate to have him in the back yard. It's plain as day, in the video-the explanation as described above. I'd love to post a video of it, but it's copyrighted. I picked up the game 2 years ago-August of 08. I recently shot a 74 and a lot of it is due to my lessons there, reading, and studying and filtering information here. I don't have time right now...heading out with the family, but I will see if I can see this tilt in Zach Johnson. The other issue with me, is I am 6'4" with a 34 inch inseam. With the majority of my height being in my upper body, might I have to have less tilt? I will ask my instructor, and perhaps Mike. I am just not sure what follow up questions to ask.

Update: One more image. Your shoulder turn is entirely too flat. Yes, your backswing is unnecessarily long. But problem 1A is getting your head to stay still, and side tilting is how. It'll also clean up your shoulder steepness.

10-4-it's probably longer than it was on the day that I shot 74, I battle that regularly. I will do my best to understand side tiliting. This is the departure I was referring to. I haven't "heard" or comprehended this. Not to say I haven't been told, but...that's another issue altogether.

***iacas*** · May 23, 2010

Am I crazy?

That was a question for your instructor, not for you.

Sorry - I thought that was clear.

I have asked my instructor, and spent considerable time-and have yet to accomplish the goal. There are two fixtures that he gave me-as follows: One is in the MEGSA equipment where I have a pad to the right, or left of my head. The other is with a long shaft (two of them together) in a shaft holder, with a noodle on the end. Place that in front of you and put that against the left or right side of my face at address. The issue is that he is giving me things to put in my way, but I have yet to "hear" or "understand" it. So, I am doing homework-jury is still out on crazy.

Indeed. I think your instructor doesn't realize that you need to side tilt to keep your head steady. You've seen the video. Side tilt throughout your backswing as you rotate and stand up. Your head will remain steady and your shoulders will turn about a fixed point and thus pivot in a circle.

"One of the biggest things in the posture, is the tilt of the body" is how Mike Bender leads into this section on his video. This is paraphrased, but I just watched the video from Mike Bender Academy and this is done because the right hand is lower than the left, so the right shoulder should be lower than the left.

I agree that the right shoulder should be lower than the left. But it's not THAT much lower on the club, and you don't need to manually add to how low it is by purposefully leaning way back from the target.

The process that he uses is to stand straight, put a shaft hanging vertically from your sternum, and hold it to your sternum. Lean to your right, until the shaft contacts your left inner thigh. I did this in the mirror, and the resulting position is the position you see in the video.

You've overdone it. The shaft in your example passes through your belt buckle and heads towards the outside of your left knee.

Try an experiment. Stand up in your address posture but with two changes: 1) put your sternum directly over your belt buckle. 2) put with the palm of your hands together so your hands match up (one is not lower than the other). You would agree that at this point your right shoulder is at the same height as your left shoulder, yes? Now slide your right hand down about half a hand's worth. Your shoulders will rotate slightly so that the right is below the left. That's all the shoulder angle you really need at setup. You're already "behind" the ball because the ball is played forward of center in your stance.

I do, but I have not heard your explanation with regards to how to accomplish it. Perhaps it's the piece of the puzzle that I am missing. I sure hope it is!

It's simple anatomy. The trick is always to do it, of course.

It's not just a Mike Bender teacher...it's Mike Bender himself as well.

Well, that's somewhat frightening.

I have a lot of respect for Mike Bender, and I know Dave does as well, but to say I disagree with him here is an understatement. MEGSA or a shaft with a noodle is a great way to try to MAKE you keep your head steady, but frankly it's scary that Mike Bender himself can't tell you HOW to keep your head steady. He can't tell you that the spine changes flex (extends, side tilts) on the backswing as you rotate.

I don't have time right now...heading out with the family, but I will see if I can see this tilt in Zach Johnson.

Why Zach Johnson?

Zach extended and side tilted less than he should earlier (~2004) but has been doing both more lately and his head has stayed steadier in recent years as a result.

10-4-it's probably longer than it was on the day that I shot 74, I battle that regularly. I will do my best to understand side tiliting. This is the departure I was referring to. I haven't "heard" or comprehended this. Not to say I haven't been told, but...that's another issue altogether.

I don't think you've been told. You've been told to keep your head steady. I'm attacking the same problem, but I'm telling you HOW you'll keep your head steady, not just "to do it."

Again, you have some other things you could improve in your swing, but this is item 1A.

**Jcp907** · May 23, 2010

Indeed. I think your instructor doesn't realize that you need to side tilt to keep your head steady. You've seen the video. Side tilt throughout your backswing as you rotate and stand up. Your head will remain steady and your shoulders will turn about a fixed point and thus pivot in a circle.

This could very well be.

I agree that the right shoulder should be lower than the left. But it's not THAT much lower on the club, and you don't need to manually add to how low it is by purposefully leaning way back from the target.

Thank you for this insight. I wish I had more time now...wife is getting antsy...taking the kids to Aquatica. I will try this tomorrow.

Well, that's somewhat frightening.

The point I was making was that Mike wants the tilt to the right at address, not that he was unable to explain how to keep my head from moving. Sorry for the confusion. I haven't asked Mike. I will ask my instructor and he will bring Mike in, if he can't explain it.

Why Zach Johnson?

Zach's instructor is Mike Bender, I would assume that if I were to see this tilt, it would be in Zach.

I don't think you've been told. You've been told to keep your head steady. I'm attacking the same problem, but I'm telling you HOW you'll keep your head steady, not just "to do it."

I understand that it is imperative. I am working my way through TGM and am learning..slowly, but learning. Thank you for explaining how! I look forward to studying and practicing more.

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