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Maintaining the Flying Wedge - Page 3

post #37 of 60
8/24/10 at 8:01pm

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
The flying wedge is ideally maintained through to the finish. You just re-cock the club, basically.
How much right wrist hinge would I have at the finish?
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post #38 of 60
8/24/10 at 8:05pm

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by Hollister View Post
How much right wrist hinge would I have at the finish?
Full wrist hinge I'd say.

That's what I've seen most pro's finish like anyway.
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post #39 of 60
8/24/10 at 8:14pm

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
The flying wedge is ideally maintained through to the finish. You just re-cock the club, basically.
Thing is, I don't think it actually happens that way. I don't think it can. I've watched a bunch of video of Mike, Charlie, Alex etc. and as far as I can tell all of their right wrists will fully unhinge after impact and stay that way, basically, almost to the top of the finish as the left wrist recocks. Otherwise, surely you're not ever going to get the release of the arm and wrist levers that S&T cites as the third key power source?





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post #40 of 60
8/24/10 at 9:18pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by Stretch View Post
Thing is, I don't think it actually happens that way. I don't think it can. I've watched a bunch of video of Mike, Charlie, Alex etc. and as far as I can tell all of their right wrists will fully unhinge after impact and stay that way, basically, almost to the top of the finish as the left wrist recocks. Otherwise, surely you're not ever going to get the release of the arm and wrist levers that S&T cites as the third key power source?
The right elbow (the angle of the elbow) is the accumulator, not the wrist.

To be clear, the first accumulator is the right elbow bending and straightening. The second is the left wrist cocking. The third is the left wrist rolling. The fourth is the left arm moving across the chest. (All "basically").

They're not the only ways you get power. You get power by jumping, too, as an example - but those are the only "accumulators."

It's important to clarify what you mean when you say hinging. The left wrist cocks and uncocks, the right wrist folds. If you're using hinging as folding (which is fine, I just want to be clear), then no, the right wrist - per the model - does not unhinge or un-fold.

Bennett famously (among those who know I suppose) loses the wedge at, oh, 7.02 or so. He's not a model in that regard. Same with Charlie Wi and so on. But you'll notice in all of their swings that they try to get it back because they know what it should look like at the end.



That said, let's not lose sight of what's important - wedge at and through impact. If you lose it a bit after that it's not that big a deal and would be way down on the list of things you could likely improve.
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post #41 of 60
8/24/10 at 9:33pm

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Thanks, Eric, got it.

Been wondering about the video (picts) that Stretch posted, too. So far I thought that the right hinge/fold reduces at impact - will try to hold it all the way now.

Moreover, I will run Andys videos exclusively now... :D
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post #42 of 60
8/24/10 at 9:41pm

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Could you explain the relationship between the flying wedge and lag? I'm mixing those two up. In degrees, how does the flying wedge move from start to finish? And the left wrist cock.
I have for some reason confused the flying wedge with the right wrist fold angle.

If I had a lot of money, I'd fly to Erie and have you show it to me.
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post #43 of 60
8/24/10 at 10:24pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Could you explain the relationship between the flying wedge and lag?
Not really, no. Lag is much more about the left wrist cocking and uncocking.

They're related because they're both wrists and they're both connected, but the right wrist unhinges (unfolds) a little on the downswing but not completely. It does so at a rate that's slower, as well, than the left wrist cock (it has to since it never unfolds all the way).

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
I'm mixing those two up. In degrees, how does the flying wedge move from start to finish? And the left wrist cock.
Left wrist cock is neutral at start (i.e. not cocked, but not fully uncocked). It goes to roughly 90 degrees (fully cocked) at the top of the backswing. Some (Sergio) add to it from there. At impact it goes back to either its neutral state or uncocks slightly (most uncock slightly, which is why the shaft plane is closer to elbow plane and not hands plane). From there it re-cocks again to 80 or 90 degrees or so.

Right wrist starts off relatively flat at setup. It folds roughly 60 degrees on the backswing and then unfolds to about 20 degrees or whatever at impact.
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post #44 of 60
8/24/10 at 10:39pm

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Right wrist starts off relatively flat at setup. It folds roughly 60 degrees on the backswing and then unfolds to about 20 degrees or whatever at impact.
So the left wrist cock and right wrist fold are independent, to some degree.

Let's say you stand at address and only cock the left wrist, what happens to the right wrist and right wrist flying wedge?
And if you stand at address and only fold the right wrist, what happens to the left wrist?

Another way to work on the flying wedge is by using pressure points. There is a nice blog psot about it here: http://3jack.blogspot.com/2009/05/hi...s-part-ii.html

Quickly put, he mention two different pressure points you can use to achieve the wanted positions. The ones Richie mentions for maintaining the flying wedge is #1 and 3.

1: The heel of the bottom hand where it touches the top hand or grip
3: The first joint of the bottom hand index finger where it touches the grip

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post #45 of 60
8/24/10 at 10:57pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
So the left wrist cock and right wrist fold are independent, to some degree.
Yes.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Let's say you stand at address and only cock the left wrist, what happens to the right wrist and right wrist flying wedge?
Nothing, unless you add to it. The right wrist will "cock" too but in the purest sense that's just because they're linked. When you swing the orientation of the club changes and the work more independently. If you cock the left wrist AND fold the right wrist from setup, you'll get a club that's roughly horizontal to the ground (or a bit higher) and which is pointed left of the target line about 20 degrees or so (I've done this just now).

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
And if you stand at address and only fold the right wrist, what happens to the left wrist?
It'll bow, but again when swinging the club the pressure points in your hands change slightly so you don't necessarily see the same level of bowing as you do when you're loosely demonstrating a static position and your hands aren't clinging to a grip or moving 60 MPH. :)

Richie's post is a good one but for some people the feels are going to be different. In fact, IIRC, I think Richie says that if he tries to feel #3 on the way down he gets a flat right wrist at impact, and that he has to feel #1 exclusively.

Feels will vary, but I will point out that a good way to stop overflexing the right elbow at P4 is to feel a good PP1 as well. That works for that most of the time.
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post #46 of 60
8/25/10 at 3:50am

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Left wrist cock is neutral at start (i.e. not cocked, but not fully uncocked). It goes to roughly 90 degrees (fully cocked) at the top of the backswing. Some (Sergio) add to it from there. At impact it goes back to either its neutral state or uncocks slightly (most uncock slightly, which is why the shaft plane is closer to elbow plane and not hands plane). From there it re-cocks again to 80 or 90 degrees or so.

Right wrist starts off relatively flat at setup. It folds roughly 60 degrees on the backswing and then unfolds to about 20 degrees or whatever at impact.
Is there anything wrong in starting the backswing (or just doing this in setup) by making the wedge/cock and then taking the club back? i.e. what is done in your drill, minus the forward weight shift. This helps me strike the ball properly. If I go straight back from neutral, I don't seem to be able to get the necessary forward hands at impact.
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post #47 of 60
8/25/10 at 9:29am

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Can you do the "Holding the flying wedge" drill that Mike and Nick have demonstrated on Youtube on mats? When looking at the Mike video, the clubs slows down when it hits the ground, so hits hands are able to catch up again. I've only got mats, so it feels like I don't get that stop motion, the club just keeps on going.
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post #48 of 60
8/25/10 at 10:43am

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by kilbyman View Post
Is there anything wrong in starting the backswing (or just doing this in setup) by making the wedge/cock and then taking the club back? i.e. what is done in your drill, minus the forward weight shift. This helps me strike the ball properly. If I go straight back from neutral, I don't seem to be able to get the necessary forward hands at impact.
There's nothing wrong with it. Golfing Machine folks talk about this as a "frozen right wrist takeaway" and it is often a characteristic of golfers who primarily hit with the right arm, rather than swing with the left. All you have to do is set the side angle in the right wrist at address and concentrate on maintaining it on the way back. The left wrist cocks automatically as the right arm folds, so you don't need to manipulate that in any conscious fashion.
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post #49 of 60
8/25/10 at 12:23pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Can you do the "Holding the flying wedge" drill that Mike and Nick have demonstrated on Youtube on mats? When looking at the Mike video, the clubs slows down when it hits the ground, so hits hands are able to catch up again. I've only got mats, so it feels like I don't get that stop motion, the club just keeps on going.
Where's Mike's demonstration? I did a demonstration of that on video as well. "His hands are able to catch up again"?

You can do it on mats but it's a bit more difficult as the mat won't provide resistance.
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post #50 of 60
8/25/10 at 4:10pm

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Where's Mike's demonstration? I did a demonstration of that on video as well. "His hands are able to catch up again"?

You can do it on mats but it's a bit more difficult as the mat won't provide resistance.
I've tried, and it is somewhat possible I guess, but doesn't feel too good compared to grass. It's the same kind of thing you did, yes.
Not my favourite drill on the mats, as it also is kinda hard on the hands when make such a pronounced swing into the ground.

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post #51 of 60
9/14/10 at 6:26pm

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

Must admit, at first I really didn't understand what the flying wedge was, even after reading through this thread (thick skull). I thought it was just basically maintaining wrist cock. But after seeing the Charley Hoffman thread with that picture of the clubface facing the sky AFTER impact it really hit home.

Just got back from an excellent range session, never hit the ball so straight before. Tiny little draw on the descent of each shot(I love that ball flight!). Was like watching a repeat of each shot, they all looked the same. Hit almost the entire bucket with my 8i. I didn't do the thrill in the original post per se (did pretty much full swings, maybe slightly less) but tried holding that wedge for as long as I could and basically just tried to point the clubface on my target line for as long as possible. Amazing results.

One thing I noticed – maintaining the wedge solved some of my other problems/issues automatically. As far as clearing the hips, belt bucket towards target, etc. etc., this basically took care of it all without me even having to think about that stuff. It just happened. Because if you are going to maintain that wedge your body will be forced to rotate through as it should. You can’t stall out mid swing and then get handsy to hit the ball, if you do you didn’t maintain the wedge. No need to try to open the hips up at impact, clear the hip like a hinging door, or whatever. I felt more “clearing of the body” doing this than I ever have when I try to force the hips to open and clear. Also, it’s nearly impossible to hook the ball doing this (hallelujah). Actually it is impossible.

I did hit a few 3w and drivers towards the end of the bucket, I found it a little more difficult to maintain the wedge, I assume due to the length of those clubs. I couldn’t do it for as long as I could with the 8i but still hit some good shots regardless.

I still need to get my weight more forward and really push those hips, something to work on. A couple shots were a little heavy and I felt like I was hanging back a bit, but I was more concerned about the wedge today than anything. Would probably be a good idea to just do the drill next time.
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post #52 of 60
9/15/10 at 1:30am

Re: Maintaining the Flying Wedge

I was looking for this thread, cause I will like to know something. On saturday I was playing a bit bad, so I started trying to practice somethings... so I remembered I watch a video of the flying wedge. I didn't know what was it, but I thought according to the video it was keeping your arms straight before impact, so I try to felt that and star hitting the ball amazingly well. On Sunday I stayed with this feeling and hit the ball better than ever, and today that I went to practice I tried that hold off finish at waist height and was getting kind of the same feeling... it's hard to explain it, but it felt really good. Then hit 10 balls with my 56° and felt awesome!

So, is this more or less what I feel? With this flying wedge, a push-draw is promoted?

Thanks!

Cheers!
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post #53 of 60
8/2/11 at 10:45pm

What is the purpose  stopping the swing short instead of following through?  

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post #54 of 60
8/2/11 at 11:06pm
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

What is the purpose  stopping the swing short instead of following through?  


The short answer? So you can check the wedge to make sure you've maintained it nicely.

 

If you swing past that position at 80 MPH good luck checking it. It's just a drill.

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