Stop generalizing about people based on their handicap.

**Rugger** · July 4, 2010

It seems like in almost every thread here you will find someone talking down about another based on their handicap or making some sweeping generalization about them. "You're a xxx handicap so there's no way you do this, you probably can't do that, it's not possible that you don't/do..."

It's pathetic and you really make yourself sound(from my view) unintelligent and arrogantly condescending. Certainly some truth can be found in handicap in relations to skill...but here it's usually ridiculous and annoying. There are so very many aspects of golf that go into a handicap that making any statement based on it is absurd.

Maybe I'm the only one this bothers, but I hope not.

**brgolf** · July 4, 2010

There are two schools of thought.

The first is that people making presumptions about others based on incomplete information and insisting people are lying even when they don't know for sure is pretty outrageous.

The second is that if you are specifically asking for help then there will be an interrogation into information which seems dubious.

I do believe that there should be firm guidelines about how players should calculate drive distances on this forum.

**Rugger** · July 4, 2010

A majority of time it isn't even when the OP is making a claim. Some guy will just see the HI number under someones name and suddenly become an online authority of their game and what they are or are not capable of. It's ridiculous.

**nuck81** · July 4, 2010

You didn't know? You're credibility on this site is directly related to a stat within which you can enter any number you want with no amount of accountability.

**Rugger** · July 4, 2010

I did learn that soon after being here. I'm gonna change my Handicap to 1+ so people will think I'm important, heed my advice without question and believe anything I say.

***iacas*** · July 4, 2010

To play devil's advocate, except in rare cases, generalizations based on handicap hold up. I see it day in and day out as an instructor and student of the game.

Driving distance is one area where they don't hold up as well (if this thread is about that, I would point out that I specifically avoid driving distance discussions for the most part because there's never anything to be gained by participating), but things like consistently contacting the ball, swinging on a solid plane, having a good, decent, or poor short game, etc. are almost always directly related to handicap index. There are exceptions and it's important to remember that, but Rugger, if you're a 19.1 and you're almost never breaking 90, certainly some assumptions can be made.

Golf is one of many things in life that often have people who are lying to themselves. I'm not saying you - just making another generalization. A lot of the times you'll find a bogey golfer who hits three good shots a round say "that's the golfer I am - why can't I do that more often?" when in reality those three shots are the anomalies - like the good player's bad shots - and not indicative of anything but luck or something. The better the player is, the more likely he is to be well aware of his deficiencies and to think they're worse than they are. The worse the player is - in general - the more likely they are to think they're really close to seeing a massive improvement in their game and that they're really much better than they are...

And yes, you can put whatever you want in the box, but this is golf and people should be honest. If you're an 19.1 or an 18.9 or a 2.3, take pride and ownership and man up to it. What's to be gained by lying? People listen to your advice more if you put 1.7 down instead of 17.0? I almost never look at the handicap index, personally, except when someone asks for help and it can guide me to choosing better terms, drills, explanations, etc.

**James_Black** · July 4, 2010

It seems like in almost every thread here you will find someone talking down about another based on their handicap or making some sweeping generalization about them. "You're a xxx handicap so there's no way you do this, you probably can't do that, it's not possible that you don't/do..."

Ok, so your saying we should listen to the 26 handicapper who hits 300 yard drives regularly?

**sean_miller** · July 4, 2010

I almost never look at the handicap index, personally, except when someone asks for help and it can guide me to choosing better terms, drills, explanations, etc.

That's a good way to approach it.

I think people at every handicap level can discover and share things as they see fit. Every once in awhile I'll read a tip posted by a relative beginner and a light goes off, "oh yeah, I forgot about that - I'll give it a try next time out!" There are times when handicap and experience matter - but like you hinted at, it sure seems irrelevant in the driving distance threads.

Ok, so your saying we should listen to the 26 handicapper who hits 300 yard drives regularly?

Exactly the OP's point. Why do you assume it can't be done? My first 2 seasons of golf I swung for the fence on every drive. I connected on the button more often than not. It's not like golf was the only sport I'd ever played. There's so much more to a handicap and a good golf game than puring a driver or a 3-wood (I could hit my 3-wood and 5-wood almost as far - that's the way wooden woods are - distance gaps more like irons). My handicap dipped to 20 at the end of season one and in year 3 it was at 10, but my driving distance was unchanged. If someone who'd never seen me play questioned my driving distance back than, I'd have simply bit my tongue - actually it would have never come up in conversation, because that was pre-internet-forum. Nowadays people say what I would have been thinking - "just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.' Why does nobody ever call bullshit when a 16 capper claims to be a great putter (< 1.8 putts per GIR) or averages 12 feet to the pin from 100 yards out. I'd say those are far less likely than wailing on a driver with a proper shaft and catching some part of the relatively large sweet spot.

***iacas*** · July 4, 2010

FWIW, here's one thing that basically directly correlates (to an incredibly good R value): low point of the swing and handicap.

Fat and thin shots occur when the low point of the swing is back behind the golf ball. A bogey golfer's average low point is - let's say - three inches behind the golf ball. The average PGA Tour pro is - again, let's say - four inches in front of the golf ball.

That's not something that's likely to vary and is a GOOD generalization because it's incredibly accurate the vast majority of the time. The higher the handicap, the poorer the contact.

**sean_miller** · July 4, 2010

FWIW, here's one thing that basically directly correlates (to an incredibly good R value): low point of the swing and handicap.

That adds credence to my wedge comment - using a large faced 460 cc driver to hit a ball perched on a 4 inch tee is a lot less demanding than consistently hitting a green from, well, from any distance really. I think that's why so many low cappers have been none too subtly nudging the dicussions toward ball striking and GIR stats. It's a stat much more indicative of improvement.

**James_Black** · July 4, 2010

Exactly the OP's point. Why do you assume it can't be done? My first 2 seasons of golf I swung for the fence on every drive. I connected on the button more often than not. It's not like golf was the only sport I'd ever played. There's so much more to a handicap and a good golf game than puring a driver or a 3-wood (I could hit my 3-wood and 5-wood almost as far - that's the way wooden woods are - distance gaps more like irons). My handicap dipped to 20 at the end of season one and in year 3 it was at 10, but my driving distance was unchanged.

I have NEVER seen a decent golfer who could drive the ball a long way, it requires a good swing.

The only long hitters I've seen are sub-10 handicappers.

Why does nobody ever call bullshit when a 16 capper claims to be a great putter (< 1.8 putts per GIR) or averages 12 feet to the pin from 100 yards out. I'd say those are far less likely than wailing on a driver with a proper shaft and catching some part of the relatively large sweet spot.

I know a junior who's off a 20 handicap, he can drive the ball 170 yards max off the tee but he can get up and down from anywhere.

it's a lot easier to get good at the short game than the long game.

**bplewis24** · July 4, 2010

Driving distance is one area where they don't hold up as well (if this thread is about that, I would point out that I specifically avoid driving distance discussions for the most part because there's never anything to be gained by participating), but things like consistently contacting the ball, swinging on a solid plane

Can you (or somebody else) provide a simple, cogent argument that a driving distance

is not directly correlated to consistent contact and swinging on a solid plane (as well as a repeatable swing)? I agree that generalizing based on handicap isn't fair, which is what this thread is about on the surface. However it is a good starting point for some basic principles of golf. Nevertheless, if you read between the lines, the OP's real agenda is to say that his 25 (now 16?) handicap does not take away his credibility in claiming to average around 300-yard drives, a 205-yard 6i and 135-yard 60*. I personally don't buy it, as I believe if you can consistently hit those marks you have a repeatable swing and make excellent contact, and there's no way you can putt/chip bad enough to be a 25-capper. Now, ultimately it doesn't matter what I believe nor what the OP claims. If he hits those numbers, great for him. He should be a single-digit handicap pretty soon with more practice. Brandon

**TourSpoon** · July 4, 2010

I have NEVER seen a decent golfer who could drive the ball a long way, it requires a good swing.

There are plenty of decent golfer that hit it a ton, and I have to go with Iacas and Sean on this one. I have seen many ex baseball and hockey players that generate some wicked clubhead speed who have the touch of an elephant with the scoring clubs. My brother-in-law is a bogey golfer that nails his driver consistently in play, misses the green with the irons, and can't get up and down to save his life. I finally have talked to him about lessons because I get tired of seeing him chili-dip all those shots within 10-80 yards.

A junior that can get up and down from anywhere will be someone not to wager when he gets older and gets the tee to green game in order. I think a good point to remember is that 5 handicaps can slap it around some days, but it is the short game that keeps them consistent and in the game.

**Fourputt** · July 4, 2010

I know personally at least 2 players in my handicap range, who regularly drive over 300 yards. Rarely in the fairway, which is why they are 13+ handicaps. I can't think if I've ever seen a 20+ handicap hit the ball that far.

But that isn't what this thread is supposed to be about. It's about crediting or discrediting a member's comment or viewpoint based on his posted handicap. I admit to looking at the handicap when I see certain types of comments, and sometime basing my own reply on that. However I try not to be condescending toward the higher caps, but more often tend to caution the lower handicappers about giving advice which is likely beyond the current abilities of a high handicap questioner. I usually only do this when I see a strong trend from several responders giving advice which I feel is misplaced, but that is just my opinion and I want the original questioner to see more opinions than just those from well above average players. I don't deny that they are probably correct when viewed from their level, but they may not be giving good advice for a 25 handicapper.

Again, just my opinion, and sometimes I'm wrong too. I'm better with rules than I'll ever be with swing advice. After all, I'm just a 13 myself... despite some 35 years of playing golf.

**jamo** · July 4, 2010

Why does nobody ever call bullshit when a 16 capper claims to be a great putter (< 1.8 putts per GIR) or averages 12 feet to the pin from 100 yards out.

I would not call out the putter (not all that much to do with the full swing) but the 12 feet from the pin guy is a liar. Not even the PGA Tour Pros do that:

http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?074 Let me add this: I have no problem accepting the fact that there are plenty of high handicappers out there that hit it 300 yards on well struck shots. But they just don't average that.

**Cornbread** · July 4, 2010

It seems like in almost every thread here you will find someone talking down about another based on their handicap or making some sweeping generalization about them. "You're a xxx handicap so there's no way you do this, you probably can't do that, it's not possible that you don't/do..."

I'm far more put-off and amazed by the posting here where people ask; what sort of golf tee should they buy, or should they wear a hat or a visor!

Have they no brain? Has their wives or their mommie's (or both) always made every decision for them their entire life?

**Bullitt5339** · July 4, 2010

As a crazy high handicapper, I can tell you that I'm probably not the typical 22 handicapper. I drive very well, usually hit 10-11 fairways per round, 240ish average off the tee, but I can go 260 if I really push it, but I'm trying to work on staying in the fairway, so I've backed off to make my misses more manageable. Where I'm horrible at is hitting greens in regulation. I will average 1 or 2 per round, and that's it. I am decent at chipping, but not stellar, and decent at putting, but again, not stellar. My mid-short iron accuracy is what kills my handicap, but that's what I'm working hardest on right now.

So I'd say handicap and driving distance probably don't go together, but GIR's and handicaps sure do.

**Harmonious** · July 4, 2010

It seems like in almost every thread here you will find someone talking down about another based on their handicap or making some sweeping generalization about them. "You're a xxx handicap so there's no way you do this, you probably can't do that, it's not possible that you don't/do..."

Rugger- First off, I don't care how far you hit your driver; it has absolutely nothing to do with how I play or how I think about the game of golf. As a lower handicap player, I try very hard not to be condescending in any of my replies. I rarely, if ever, comment on someone's video swing. I generally only offer suggestions in which I try to state "work for me and may work for you" rather that make blanket statements about how to swing.

I speak here only for myself and not other low handicap players when I say that I am often amused by some of the claims and suggestions made by others. This could refer to how much they can spin the ball, how they can work the ball, how to play certain shots, how far they can hit their driver, etc. Usually when those claims are made, I will check the handicap level of the poster. If someone with a 24 handicap goes on and on about how they set up to hit a 5 yard draw to a back left pin, it is my nature to question whether the poster can make the shot. I don't jump on the thread and berate the person, but I don't have to accept that they are truthful. Those of us who have played the game over a long period have probably seen thousands of other golfers, ranging from pros to hackers. My scepticism, if you want to call it that, is based on years of observation. That is not to say that there isn't the rare individual who is far outside the norm, as you claim you are, regarding a certain part of the game. But, as with UFOs and Bigfoot, a sceptic needs to see proof, and not just unsubstantiated claims. In your case, when anyone has expressed scepticism, you have turned defensive and combative. Your starting of this thread is but another example. This forum is about an open expression of ideas. If you don't want a discussion of your driving distance, don't mention your driving distance. If it bothers you so much that you feel the need to insult other posters, I would suggest you either provide the proof that will quiet your critics (as I have suggested to you earlier) or seek another avenue for your frustration. Best regards in whatever way you choose.

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