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My Swing (Zeph)

post #1 of 157
Thread Starter 

Some misc info:

Been playing since 2008, working on S&T with Golf Evolution and evolvr since this spring.

Handicap development:
2008: 36 to 20
2009: 20 to 17
2010: 17 to 11

  • I had a wicked slice, which has improved quite well, my hands and club path is much better, still place for improvement
  • My weight transfer is better, still place for improvement
  • Lower body rotates too much and too quickly, forcing the hands to flip
  • My upper body moves forward on the downswing, possibly because of the quick lower body
  • Backswing is too long, the arms get too close to the body
  • Right elbow bends too much, past 90º
  • Hands still move back when the lower body starts to push and unwind, backswing should be shorter and with a more pronounced stop
  • Hips could rotate more, right knee could straighten out more on the backswing

Biggest problem is the lower body outracing the hands, leaving them behind and causing me to flip. This is a combination of a couple of things, but primarily about the hips being too aggressive, and turning too quickly. Something I've found is very hard to work on. I've tried swinging the arms faster, but they don't stand a chance with the current swing.

Here is my swing at two different occasions:

Old one from 2009 inside the spoiler:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
March 2009, Down The Line:



March 2009, Face On:



July 2010 (current), Down The Line:



July 2010 (current), Face On:


Edited by Zeph - 3/14/11 at 12:04pm
post #2 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Lots of improvement. Is that your house? You've got a spectacular view.
What I notice
The hands turning at impact.
Head dipping during backswing--probably a product of something else--over side tilting relative to hip rotation?.
post #3 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

wow awesome view from your house dude lol, I dunno anything about S&T but impact isnt great, small bit of a flip and I dont think its cause by your sequencing, what camera are you using btw?
post #4 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Can't complain on the view, you got that right.

Camera is Casio EX-F1.
post #5 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

You've got a nice looking move. To me your lower body action is really good, lots of power. It seems like your club is passing your hands a bit to early.

And wow, what a view and location.

How have you like evolvr? I am interested but haven't bought a camera. Whenever I do that, I'm going to do it for a bit.
post #6 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Looking at your swing, which I think looks pretty good, you should be far less than a 13. Are there other parts of your game that need more work than your full swing? If so, work on them, as your full swing looks good enough to get to far less than a 10, IMO.
post #7 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer View Post
How have you like evolvr? I am interested but haven't bought a camera. Whenever I do that, I'm going to do it for a bit.
Very good. The results from my 2009 swing to the current one are all from working with evolvr. It does require work on your part, but if you are up for it, the system works great.
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
Looking at your swing, which I think looks pretty good, you should be far less than a 13. Are there other parts of your game that need more work than your full swing? If so, work on them, as your full swing looks good enough to get to far less than a 10, IMO.
The full swing is my biggest problem. My putting and short game is not state of the art, but the full swing is where my problem lies. I'm missing greens and hitting shots left and right. When I hit the ball good, I can shoot low, but when the swing doesn't work, I'm all over the place. I would be thrilled if I could hit half the greens and walk home with 40 putts. Not on the results of course, but because I don't hit a lot of greens.

My error shots currently are shanks, fats, thins and hooks. Occasionally I hit a small fade. My flipping is like a russian roulette, one swing I hit the ball clean, the next I hit it fat. My distance is poor and I hit it high, with little penetrating flight. By improving my swing path, I've gotten rid of most of the terrible slices and pull hooks, so the ball is usually on the course.
post #8 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Huge improvement. Well done! If you're already doing evolvr you certainly don't need my inexpert analysis, but the only thing I'd offer from one tall, gangly guy to another is the DTL looks like you're maybe setting up a little close to the ball? As you come through, the hands and arms just seem kind of cramped up against your body?



Edit: Found the comparison shot I was looking for, of Nick Clearwater's mate hitting a 230-yard 6 iron.

post #9 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by uttexas View Post
The hands turning at impact.
He has to for now. For reasons I'll get to later.

Originally Posted by uttexas View Post
Head dipping during backswing--probably a product of something else--over side tilting relative to hip rotation?.
Zeph is side tilting a bit too much yes. His shoulders get incredibly steep. Zeph, ease up on the side tilting.

Now, some short-hand for Zeph because he'll know what I'm talking about...

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
[*]My weight transfer is better, still place for improvement[*]Lower body rotates too much and too quickly, forcing the hands to flip[*]My upper body moves forward on the downswing, possibly because of the quick lower body
Possibly. Largely because you simply haven't quite gotten the "push" down quite right. It's still too much "forward and up" for you and not enough "forward." The point at which you stop going forward is still too early in your downswing, and you still don't get quite as forward as Charlie Wi. I'll demonstrate that - along with the bigger issue - further below.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
[*]Backswing is too long, the arms get too close to the body[*]Right elbow bends too much, past 90º
Those two are related. But you know that.
[*]Hands still move back when the lower body starts to push and unwind, backswing should be shorter and with a more pronounced stop[/quote]

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
[*]Hips could rotate more, right knee could straighten out more on the backswing
Yeah, but that's really nit-picky.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Biggest problem is the lower body outracing the hands, leaving them behind and causing me to flip. This is a combination of a couple of things, but primarily about the hips being too aggressive, and turning too quickly.
When the hips start to turn, they stop going forward. You'll see your left knee straighten earlier and stop going forward. Your hip never gets outside of your knee.

Now, before I go any farther, let me say this too: you've made a LOT of really awesome changes. You know the parts you do well - like P2 and so on - and you're seeing the results in your scoring and handicap. Good work. These are continued tweaks, but don't lose sight of - and don't think I've lost sight of - how far you've already come, too.

Here are two photos which are illustrative.




I think you'll see what this illustrates.

Yes, your head goes forward a bit. That's partially the reason why you get as forward as you do get. But the measurements showing the hip STILL being forward of Charlie's left knee is revealing. Yours is not forward of your knee, and that's with your upper body going forward to try to help it. You can see the left hip in Charlie's picture shows a very forward dot sequence while yours goes up sooner. I'll get back to this.

The second thing is the lines. I've drawn those to show your arms at those hip positions. Note that the first line is a bit steeper, but then Charlie aggressively swings his arms down as his hips continue to drive forward. If you spin too much and don't aggressively release #1 and #4, you'll end up with your arms back like Jim Furyk (and you). Charlie's at P7 on the fourth hip dot and you're at P6. You're at P5 when Charlie's at P6.7 or so.

Now, the work you need to do is somewhat complex and yet fairly straightforward.

It's going to start with shortening up the arm swing a bit. You know this - the 90 degrees right arm thing. The sooner that less distance the arms will have to travel and the faster they can cover that ground. You're also going to watch that you're not overdoing the side tilt. If anything, feel like your head is almost rising up a bit right now...

But your arms lag behind primarily because you still haven't managed the hip action properly. You go forward a little - taking the upper body with your lower body - and then start jumping. Your left knee begins straightening before you hit P5. Part of that's due to the fact that you side tilted too much, but the bigger part is simply training the left knee to retain its flex longer.

As for the upper body going forward, you're going to attack that by feeling the secondary axis tilt. Push the hips forward, leave the head back. PUSH the hips forward, LEAVE the head back. It might feel as if you're actually trying to drop your head to the right (back) just to counter-act the fact that it's pushing forward.

It's all tied together... but if I had to simplify what I just said into a bullet list it'd be this:
  • Watch your side tilt and right elbow flexion. Nail those down. Shouldn't take you too long. You're good at those kinds of changes.
  • Keep your left knee flexed longer. Feel it driving down and forward on the downswing.
  • Feel as if you're tilting your head right - almost like you're manually adding secondary axis tilt (right side tilt) on the downswing.
  • As you're doing that, get the grip of the club farther away from your head faster.

The first one you do on your own. Then you do the second and third together. Add in a dash of #4 as you can.

Even shorter: Zeph, your left knee might need to feel flexed an INCREDIBLY long time as it drives forward - as soon as it starts to straighten the driving forward is done. Your head might feel like it's moving backwards... it likely won't be.

P.S. I hope this long post helps to make up for the fact that you've been without a camera for awhile and thus haven't been able to use evolvr lately. We hope you're able to get it back and begin posting videos soon. We appreciate your patronage () and are glad you've improved as substantially as you have. Good work, and we're happy to help.

P.P.S. Zeph, you are a bit bent over at setup with the grip a tad too close to you. Don't bend at the waist quite so much and let the handle raise up just a little to get a bit more room between your junk and the butt end of the grip. Just a little.
post #10 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
P.S. I hope this long post helps to make up for the fact that you've been without a camera for awhile and thus haven't been able to use evolvr lately. We hope you're able to get it back and begin posting videos soon. We appreciate your patronage () and are glad you've improved as substantially as you have. Good work, and we're happy to help.
Posted a new video yesterday as a matter of fact.

If anyone wondered, Erik has been a tremendous help for me, both with his contributions on the forum, through PMs, and of course using evolvr with him and Golf Evolution. I've not only managed some changes on my swing, but also learned a lot through the whole process.

P.S. I should give some gratitude to Charlie Wi also, been using his slow motion swings a lot.
post #11 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Posted a new video yesterday as a matter of fact.
Yeah, I forgot about that. We were finishing up a two-day school. Anyway, back to topic.
post #12 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
P.P.S. Zeph, you are a bit bent over at setup with the grip a tad too close to you. Don't bend at the waist quite so much and let the handle raise up just a little to get a bit more room between your junk and the butt end of the grip. Just a little.
That's the first thing I noticed. Is it an SnT thing to be a little more bent over? Or could Zeph be trying to "cheat" the side tilting my being a little more hunched over? Could being less hunched over alleviate the excess side tilting?

And really, I'm just asking, not accusing anything, please don't take my post to be accusatory or anything along those lines.
post #13 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by uttexas View Post
The hands turning at impact.
Love the lower body action in your swing.

Regarding the hands, we are talking about the slight flipping through impact, right?

Eric, could you please elaborate why you have him do this?
post #14 of 157
Thread Starter 

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by jamo View Post
That's the first thing I noticed. Is it an SnT thing to be a little more bent over? Or could Zeph be trying to "cheat" the side tilting my being a little more hunched over? Could being less hunched over alleviate the excess side tilting?
I doubt it, if so it would be subconciously. I've always been side tilting too much, before I even knew what S&T was. Look at my 2009 swing in the first post, there I was tilted even more. I have done some work on tilting less, but not enough it seems.
Originally Posted by kafka01 View Post
Regarding the hands, we are talking about the slight flipping through impact, right?

Eric, could you please elaborate why you have him do this?
He doesn't have me do it, it is a result of my hips not moving enough forward, rotating and pushing up too early and leaving the hands behind, which kinda force the flip.

It is not something I want there, but hopefully will get better when I get the other segments in place.

Getting the hips far enough forward is not easy to work on, especially when I have to keep my head from moving forward at the same time. Messing up my balance, falling forward and sideways.
Here is a compilation of swings from one day I was determined to get the hips as far forward as physically possible: http://i30.tinypic.com/34qk6lz.jpg
Hands still way behind and hips too rotated of course. Who said this would be easy?
post #15 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by Zeph;499088
Getting the hips far enough forward is not easy to work on, especially when I have to keep my head from moving forward at the same time. Messing up my balance, falling forward and sideways.
Here is a compilation of swings from one day I was determined to get the hips as far forward as physically possible: [url
http://i30.tinypic.com/34qk6lz.jpg[/url]
Hands still way behind and hips too rotated of course. Who said this would be easy?
If i look at your front video - you have a lateral shift and a hip rotation (which is a bit open for impact) - do you actually plan on more lateral shift?
To me it looks a bit, when you are hip high on the downswing, you come in with a proper "LAG", but from this point til impact it seems you try to actively release into the ball with your right arm and therefore destroying the LAG instead of just letting the clubhead release passivly? Sorry if i´m totally off here, i´m not the best at analysing swings.
post #16 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by jamo View Post
That's the first thing I noticed. Is it an SnT thing to be a little more bent over? Or could Zeph be trying to "cheat" the side tilting my being a little more hunched over? Could being less hunched over alleviate the excess side tilting?
No, forward bend doesn't cheat side tilting. They're perpendicular to each other. Zeph, make some backswings where you feel like you only stand up and rotate. No side tilting at all - see how those look. Just extend and rotate.

Originally Posted by kafka01 View Post
Eric, could you please elaborate why you have him do this?
Why he does what? His lower body isn't where we want it to be, nor his hands. And a few other little things...

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Getting the hips far enough forward is not easy to work on, especially when I have to keep my head from moving forward at the same time. Messing up my balance, falling forward and sideways.
The key, Zeph, is retaining flex in the left knee. The instant that starts losing flex you stop going forward. You can go forward really, really far with a really flexed left knee.

Originally Posted by Zeph View Post
Here is a compilation of swings from one day I was determined to get the hips as far forward as physically possible:
Remember, too, it's not just how far forward but how LONG they continue to go forward. Given these two scenarios, I'd rather see a student do scenario A over B.

P4
A) Starting Point
B) Starting Point

P5
A) hips two inches forward
B) hips six inches forward

P6
A) hips three inches forward
B) hips seven inches forward

P7
A) hips four inches forward
B) hips still seven inches forward

See how in A the hips continue forward longer? In B they push forward fast and then stall out.

Originally Posted by kafka01 View Post
If i look at your front video - you have a lateral shift and a hip rotation (which is a bit open for impact) - do you actually plan on more lateral shift?
A bit more, yes, and for longer. His hips aren't actually too open at impact, which is the weird thing. His hips open at a decent rate - he just loses the forward. Look at the down-the-line view - they're only about 20 to 30 degrees open at impact - well within an acceptable range.

Originally Posted by kafka01 View Post
To me it looks a bit, when you are hip high on the downswing, you come in with a proper "LAG", but from this point til impact it seems you try to actively release into the ball with your right arm and therefore destroying the LAG instead of just letting the clubhead release passivly? Sorry if i´m totally off here, i´m not the best at analysing swings.
Good try, but no, that's not really it. It looks like he has good lag, but he has to release it at some point or he'll either swing six inches above the ball or just cold top it on his way down.

It's really about the first accumulator for Zeph. He's gotta start karate chopping it.
post #17 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
No, forward bend doesn't cheat side tilting. They're perpendicular to each other. Zeph, make some backswings where you feel like you only stand up and rotate. No side tilting at all - see how those look. Just extend and rotate.
I was just thinking that maybe if he addresses the ball with more forward bend, in an effort to maintain his inclination to the ground and the position of his head he would have to side tilt a little more tham normal.

If I'm wrong so be it. It's just a thought.
post #18 of 157

Re: My Swing (Zeph)

Originally Posted by jamo View Post
I was just thinking that maybe if he addresses the ball with more forward bend, in an effort to maintain his inclination to the ground and the position of his head he would have to side tilt a little more tham normal.
I see where you're going with it now. It could be that you're on to something. I don't think so, but it could be and it's not completely out of the question.
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